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The Plight of the Rifter
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Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#41 - 2012-06-07 19:21:39 UTC
Neutron Blaster Merlin with 2x MagStabs and No TEs:

DPS(Null):
@ 0-3.3km = 170
@ 5km = 150
@ 7km = 80
@ 10km = 20

Look at those stats. Now imagine how one would fight one of these ships. I hear every frigate has to be fit with scram/web or you'll never win a fight!
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#42 - 2012-06-07 19:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Jones Bones wrote:
Neutron Blaster Merlin with 2x MagStabs and No TEs:

DPS(Null):
@ 0-3.3km = 170
@ 5km = 150
@ 7km = 80
@ 10km = 20

Look at those stats. Now imagine how one would fight one of these ships. I hear every frigate has to be fit with scram/web or you'll never win a fight!


Hence my comment on the arty rifter winning :)

Edit: But I feel this conversation is mostly geared for low sec roaming/frigate 1v1s, where t1 frigs are almost always going to sport an ab/scram. Because really, my goal (read: biggest rush) is to catch the odd solo cruiser or bc being stupid, not to gank an 8m frigate. I want to be ready for multiple situations.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-06-07 19:49:53 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:

The problem with that fit is that it is so extremely situational (no tank). I have a realistic ship that can take on almost anything, versus that fit that can *maybe* win a few fights against blaster boats (and only with good piloting).

You should try an arty rifter, it has a much better chance of survival. A rail incursus, tristan (did the gun slots change? don't remember), rail merlin, punisher, kestrel, etc etc will all kill that rifter. So your engagement profile is, maybe merlins, and hope they have blasters on top of that (and that you start the fight at a perfect 10km, otherwise dead)?

The point of this thread is yes, there is no one fit to rule them all, but the standard merlin is now so far above so many rifter fits it makes flying one pointless, as the merlin can do everything better. However, a shield/400m plate + neut rifter will do well against most other T1s (including incursus).

I don't know how to "fix" the rifter. Give it a low and CPU? That will return it to being a perfect kiter and tears of OP will begin. Honestly, they should have left the merlin's speed where it was so that the rifter still had its definite speed advantage.

And how much faster is the rifter? I remember looking at EFT and only seeing a marginal difference. I kept up with and killed a hookbill with a meta4 60% web, T2 AB, and a Tracking disruptor (range). I can handle a rifter.

PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.


I fully agree, its extremely situational - will only really ever win against Merlins/Buffer Incursii. Thats pretty much what its made for.
The fit isnt perfect - its not even close. (I think Ill take your advice and train up T2 Small Arty though)

Merlin is 310m/s, Rifter is 355. Merlin has a Minor Mass advantage that closes that gap slightly while ABing/MWDing, but rifter still pulls ahead.

Consider a 200mm Plate Rifter with Falloff Rigs/TE instead of a Repper (May have to try that) Faster and longer range at the expense of damage and tank. The reduced tank is slightly less of an issue, considering (As James Said) 20 DPS at 10km.
My fit was an (Overly extreme, and TBH Not Very Good) example of an anti-merlin rifter. Projectiles already project damage better than blasters - this is something that needs to be emraced if the rifter is to come out on top.

I dont have any experience with Arty Rifters, so ill just shup up here.

BTW: If anyone is looking to improve their manual piloting skills, I'd highly recomend Tankless Nano AC Rifter.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#44 - 2012-06-07 19:54:37 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:

The problem with that fit is that it is so extremely situational (no tank). I have a realistic ship that can take on almost anything, versus that fit that can *maybe* win a few fights against blaster boats (and only with good piloting).

You should try an arty rifter, it has a much better chance of survival. A rail incursus, tristan (did the gun slots change? don't remember), rail merlin, punisher, kestrel, etc etc will all kill that rifter. So your engagement profile is, maybe merlins, and hope they have blasters on top of that (and that you start the fight at a perfect 10km, otherwise dead)?

The point of this thread is yes, there is no one fit to rule them all, but the standard merlin is now so far above so many rifter fits it makes flying one pointless, as the merlin can do everything better. However, a shield/400m plate + neut rifter will do well against most other T1s (including incursus).

I don't know how to "fix" the rifter. Give it a low and CPU? That will return it to being a perfect kiter and tears of OP will begin. Honestly, they should have left the merlin's speed where it was so that the rifter still had its definite speed advantage.

And how much faster is the rifter? I remember looking at EFT and only seeing a marginal difference. I kept up with and killed a hookbill with a meta4 60% web, T2 AB, and a Tracking disruptor (range). I can handle a rifter.

PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.


I fully agree, its extremely situational - will only really ever win against Merlins/Buffer Incursii. Thats pretty much what its made for.
The fit isnt perfect - its not even close. (I think Ill take your advice and train up T2 Small Arty though)

Merlin is 310m/s, Rifter is 355. Merlin has a Minor Mass advantage that closes that gap slightly while ABing/MWDing, but rifter still pulls ahead.

Consider a 200mm Plate Rifter with Falloff Rigs/TE instead of a Repper (May have to try that) Faster and longer range at the expense of damage and tank. The reduced tank is slightly less of an issue, considering (As James Said) 20 DPS at 10km.
My fit was an (Overly extreme, and TBH Not Very Good) example of an anti-merlin rifter. Projectiles already project damage better than blasters - this is something that needs to be emraced if the rifter is to come out on top.

I dont have any experience with Arty Rifters, so ill just shup up here.

BTW: If anyone is looking to improve their manual piloting skills, I'd highly recomend Tankless Nano AC Rifter.


And as a counter to your counter, I can just fit rails and still win against a cookie or super kiter/no tank :)
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-06-07 20:02:00 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
Mira Lynne wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:

The problem with that fit is that it is so extremely situational (no tank). I have a realistic ship that can take on almost anything, versus that fit that can *maybe* win a few fights against blaster boats (and only with good piloting).

You should try an arty rifter, it has a much better chance of survival. A rail incursus, tristan (did the gun slots change? don't remember), rail merlin, punisher, kestrel, etc etc will all kill that rifter. So your engagement profile is, maybe merlins, and hope they have blasters on top of that (and that you start the fight at a perfect 10km, otherwise dead)?

The point of this thread is yes, there is no one fit to rule them all, but the standard merlin is now so far above so many rifter fits it makes flying one pointless, as the merlin can do everything better. However, a shield/400m plate + neut rifter will do well against most other T1s (including incursus).

I don't know how to "fix" the rifter. Give it a low and CPU? That will return it to being a perfect kiter and tears of OP will begin. Honestly, they should have left the merlin's speed where it was so that the rifter still had its definite speed advantage.

And how much faster is the rifter? I remember looking at EFT and only seeing a marginal difference. I kept up with and killed a hookbill with a meta4 60% web, T2 AB, and a Tracking disruptor (range). I can handle a rifter.

PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.


I fully agree, its extremely situational - will only really ever win against Merlins/Buffer Incursii. Thats pretty much what its made for.
The fit isnt perfect - its not even close. (I think Ill take your advice and train up T2 Small Arty though)

Merlin is 310m/s, Rifter is 355. Merlin has a Minor Mass advantage that closes that gap slightly while ABing/MWDing, but rifter still pulls ahead.

Consider a 200mm Plate Rifter with Falloff Rigs/TE instead of a Repper (May have to try that) Faster and longer range at the expense of damage and tank. The reduced tank is slightly less of an issue, considering (As James Said) 20 DPS at 10km.
My fit was an (Overly extreme, and TBH Not Very Good) example of an anti-merlin rifter. Projectiles already project damage better than blasters - this is something that needs to be emraced if the rifter is to come out on top.

I dont have any experience with Arty Rifters, so ill just shup up here.

BTW: If anyone is looking to improve their manual piloting skills, I'd highly recomend Tankless Nano AC Rifter.


And as a counter to your counter, I can just fit rails and still win against a cookie or super kiter/no tank :)

and then someone will counter that counter... thats the cycle everything has a counter as it should be i dont want a ship that never needs to be changed to handle different threats it would get boring... atleast now pvp isnt "FLY MINNIE, FIND TARGET, WIN" you actually have to strategize and think okay if they bring this then i need that but then they can counter with this other method so i need a way to counter that as well but that means the first thing i want to do wont work anymore. it makes the game more interesting. Besides eventually everyone will come up with new counters and people will start flying more and more things as counters and then hopefully everything will find their niche.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-06-07 20:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Lynne
Again, I have No Experience with Arty (And the Only times ive used rails have been against AC Fits) So i can't reply to your counter of my counter with any accuracy.
Ill get back to you when Im done Small Arty Spec and have a few fights under my belt.

Edit:
Tasiv Deka wrote:
Snip

Basically this. Theres a Counter to a Counter to a Counter and a counter for that counter. Theres a Counter to the Merlin, and a counter for the merlin's counter, and i wouldnt be surprised if the counter to that counter to that other counter that counters the first counter is the Rifter
*GAAAAAAAASP*

Also: the Buff is still relatively Recent. Its going to take more time for the frigates to settle into their place on the grand scheme of things - and theres still more Tiericide comnig. Who knows? Maybe the Bantam will be the Anti-Merlin, and the Rifter will counter the Bantam. Rifter < Merlin < Bantam < Rifter and so on.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-06-07 21:05:30 UTC
The rifter is still fine it can still dictate range and do well from either 7-8km or up close depending on what your fighting. I have been going nuts with the incursus recently and I know for a fact that i would get murdered by any rifer that chose to hold me at 7000. Punishers still get out-tracked if you get in close and Merlins have always been tough on rifters. The rifter is still the king of killing interceptors is still the best bet for going after bigger things (that usless high slot is great for a vamp, and your guns still work with minimal/no cap) and still has the best fits for solo mwd nullsec type setups.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#48 - 2012-06-07 23:45:04 UTC
Stukkler Tian wrote:
The rifter is still fine it can still dictate range and do well from either 7-8km or up close depending on what your fighting. I have been going nuts with the incursus recently and I know for a fact that i would get murdered by any rifer that chose to hold me at 7000. Punishers still get out-tracked if you get in close and Merlins have always been tough on rifters. The rifter is still the king of killing interceptors is still the best bet for going after bigger things (that usless high slot is great for a vamp, and your guns still work with minimal/no cap) and still has the best fits for solo mwd nullsec type setups.


Check out some of the stuff Tawa Suyo has been doing with the MWD merlin in null...he has gotten some awesome solo kills.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tawa+Suyo
drdxie
#49 - 2012-06-08 01:25:53 UTC
Sooo rifter pilots need to start thinking to win fights.. that can't be right Shocked

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
Stukkler Tian
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-06-08 04:27:31 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:


Check out some of the stuff Tawa Suyo has been doing with the MWD merlin in null...he has gotten some awesome solo kills.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Tawa+Suyo


Those are some pretty impressive kills the dram and afs in particular (not something i could have done with a dual prop rifter). I may have to eat my words on the nullsec bit but everything else still stands.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#51 - 2012-06-08 10:04:25 UTC
Lady Spank wrote:
The difference is in the piloting, not in the ship. Now it isn't top-dog I might consider flying it.


Exactly this.

The Tears Must Flow
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#52 - 2012-06-08 10:18:09 UTC
TRDR: A guy that flys a Rifter without a web is complaining that he can't faceroll other T1 frigates anymore.

The Tears Must Flow
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#53 - 2012-06-08 12:07:40 UTC
The Incursus and Merlin are now superior to a Rifter. In the not to distant past. The Merling and Rifter were on equal footing. It changed. Time to adapt and move on.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#54 - 2012-06-08 16:11:40 UTC
So, someone want one of the fastest frigate using capless gun to outdps and outtank the slowest frigate using the shortest range weapon ? Am I understanding correctly ?
Roll
Suqq Madiq
#55 - 2012-06-08 16:17:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
So, someone want one of the fastest frigate using capless gun to outdps and outtank the slowest frigate using the shortest range weapon ? Am I understanding correctly ?
Roll


No, you're not understanding correctly. But, I suspect you're used to that.
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#56 - 2012-06-08 18:11:39 UTC
Bad pilots flying good ships still equals **** results.

Sorry baddies.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#57 - 2012-06-08 18:14:53 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
One thing I've been thinking throughout this whole thread: Why fly (t1) frigates instead of destroyers? IMO since the dessie buff, frigates are pretty useless in comparison.

It's like cruisers vs BC's. IMO there's really no point to fly a cruiser (except in FW for medium plexes).
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#58 - 2012-06-08 18:20:31 UTC
Quote:
One thing I've been thinking throughout this whole thread: Why fly (t1) frigates instead of destroyers? IMO since the dessie buff, frigates are pretty useless in comparison.

They're doing a ground-up rebalance, starting with frigates. Presumably dessies will also be rebalanced, but the only one that really needs it is the thrasher.
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-06-08 18:35:37 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Why fly (t1) frigates instead of destroyers?


Because destroyers still have the sig of a cruiser, no speed and no med/low slots compared to the top T1s? Blink
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#60 - 2012-06-08 18:37:37 UTC
Dread Pirate Pete wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Why fly (t1) frigates instead of destroyers?


Because destroyers still have the sig of a cruiser, no speed and no med/low slots compared to the top T1s? Blink


No, they don't. A thrasher goes 1.9 km/s with a MWD, has 56 base sig, and aligns in 4 seconds. That's way closer to frigate level than cruiser level.