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Crime & Punishment

 
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Empire wars in its current state.

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Reppyk
The Black Shell
#101 - 2012-06-06 21:37:02 UTC
eh dudes
dudes

we don't give a fu(k

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Tsia
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#102 - 2012-06-06 21:46:22 UTC
A foreword:
Anya, give it a rest mate. We're trying to have a discussion about the wardec mechanics here, not about you trying to save face. If you really want to settle the score in an argument, I suggest sending Aesheera either a private mail or a convo and leave it out of the thread from here onwards.

I'd like to think that'll be all the arguing in the thread over, so let's actually continue to chat about the topic in hand.


Actual post :
I'm glad to have heard so much support from a lot of people that have seen this thread, many of which haven't posted but have strong feelings about the mechanics of the wars. Maybe in a bit of time we can see some changes put in! :D
Aesheera
Doomheim
#103 - 2012-06-06 21:52:40 UTC
Hopefully.
The minimal tweaks to the system can make a massive difference, and will lead to a overall healthier wardec atmosphere for those who wish to continue their pre-inferno activities.

Certain establishments already made choices to leave it for what it is now and go elsewhere to await desired changes - be they what has been proposed thusfar by various people in- and out of game, from notable alliances and corporations, or a CCP engineered solution that will give it a well-needed revamp.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2012-06-06 22:01:36 UTC
Aesheera wrote:
Hopefully.
The minimal tweaks to the system can make a massive difference, and will lead to a overall healthier wardec atmosphere for those who wish to continue their pre-inferno activities.

Certain establishments already made choices to leave it for what it is now and go elsewhere to await desired changes - be they what has been proposed thusfar by various people in- and out of game, from notable alliances and corporations, or a CCP engineered solution that will give it a well-needed revamp.


What are you talking about? "Pre-Inferno" activities? I don't think you get it: those looking to fight are still getting them, and they are getting more than they could have hoped for.

At this point, the only people complaining about the ally system are the "mercenaries" who feel disenfranchised. You want to run around and say this affects everyone. No, it only affects those looking for quick ganks on carebears and mission-runners.

I just went out with some corpmates and snagged some kills from a numerically superior fleet. No logistics. And the people we killed were competent PvPers.

As I said, YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO WAR DEC ALL OF EVE. Those are your words. You wanted a bedlam, and now that you have it you aren't happy with it? You cant' have your cake and eat it too. It simply does not work that way.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Aesheera
Doomheim
#105 - 2012-06-06 22:15:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aesheera
Anya Klibor wrote:
Selective reading, thread derailing and other stuff.

This thread is about Empire decs in general, not your personal issues.
That it affects mercs due to the ally system as a direct consequence aka putting a halt on the business for the most part is a not to be overlooked flaw as well.

Many agree, few don't, get over it.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#106 - 2012-06-06 22:34:04 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:
At this point, the only people complaining about the ally system are the "mercenaries" who feel disenfranchised. You want to run around and say this affects everyone. No, it only affects those looking for quick ganks on carebears and mission-runners.
And what about the average Joes that want to try a wardec ? People that aren't mercenaries (I would say that most of the mercs are "good" highsec pvpers with a graps of the complex mechanisms). I dunno, maybe some bears willing to get a good moon location, or some bored people that would like to become some highsec pirates.

Don't you think that with the current mechanisms (expensive fees, free allies, unlimited allies), many would not even try it ? Leaving the wardecs in the hands of the experienced players ?

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Crazy HybridChick
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#107 - 2012-06-07 07:38:03 UTC
IMO the ally system can use a bit of work for many of the prior listed reasons. Such as: first ally free but then you'd need to pay concord off to allow other corps/alliances to join... on top of potentially paying the mercenaries for their services if their statistics/work deserves it... hence shopping around. Spending isk for defense should be just as important for the defender as it is for the aggressor.

But that part aside, not all merc work is dead. Offensive contracts are still being used and the ally system adds some spice to that aspect if you are hired to dec someone. I knoq we've received multiple contracts since Inferno released.

The ally system definately needs some work though. Tracking a target and getting set up for hits only to have 12 'allies' just jump in and cause all your targets to dock is quite annoying. Not really the systems' fault I know, but it sure makes it easier for corps to get involved in almost any war for free flashy red.



*The above is my personal opinion.*

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3587340&#post3587340
Kuroi Hoshi
Ajo Heavy Industries
#108 - 2012-06-07 19:58:08 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
And what about the average Joes that want to try a wardec ?
....
Don't you think that with the current mechanisms (expensive fees, free allies, unlimited allies), many would not even try it ? Leaving the wardecs in the hands of the experienced players ?


Agreed, I know of some industrial/PvP hybrid groups that would perform war decs before this new system. They would attack other hybrid groups (normally as a secondary objective to takeover a WH etc). The new ally system makes this sort of thing a very bad idea.

My suggestion is just a variant on several other good ideas put forward (and might even match one already proposed):

Allow the defender a single free ally. They can choose to pull in their main alliance, a friendly, a stranger just looking for more targets for free, a merc that they pay that will work to fulfill that contract, etc.

Or the defender can select "open war" and bring as many allies as he wants, but the attacker is now allowed to do the same. Maybe each side has 50 corps each and you have one huge war involving thousands of players on both sides. Allow allies to withdraw and after a week long cooldown they can join the other side giving you options for bribes etc.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#109 - 2012-06-07 20:37:19 UTC
Wow guys, seriously! The pool of griefer tears is deep enough to drown in now. Boo hoo more, please; I'm enjoying your tears. Maybe they'll soon change the system so that you can get back to deccing 3-man noob indy corps.
Officer Nyota Uhura
#110 - 2012-06-07 20:42:17 UTC
Darius III wrote:
I replied to this thread days ago and either the reply was eaten or CCP removed it, I dont't know. In my original reply, I was highly critical of CCP and mentioned that the new war mechanics were pretty much garbage.

I think that the agressor should be able to call ONE ally for every TWO allies the defender calls. This would IMO, solve many of the problems.

Nothing is broken for anyone else but a bunch of crybabies who can't adapt.
Kuroi Hoshi
Ajo Heavy Industries
#111 - 2012-06-07 22:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuroi Hoshi
The current system really doesn't help the 3 man noob corp. They're the cheapest to dec and if the griefers have any experience roaming low sec then 23 allies will probably not be of much help to the noob miner unless he operates exclusively in a trade hub.

Instead the defenders should have a variety of ways to end the war and put it on a cooldown that is based on their size. Then they could actually do something about griefers wardeccing them.

Maybe they interact with special CONCORD agents that send them on missions (mine x ore, kill y). Then ask their one ally to provide some defense while they run those missions or else do it at a time when they're unlikely to be attacked. Maybe as an additional option they can gather enough LP (like factional warfare) killing the aggressors that can only be spent to end the war. The kills made by their ally automatically adds to their defender's total LP as well.

You then have something you're actually fighting over as opposed to random CONCORD sanctioned violence where everyone wins except the noob corp being decced whose best hope is to just spend the war docked 24/7.
Aesheera
Doomheim
#112 - 2012-06-07 22:23:00 UTC
Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:
Darius III wrote:
I replied to this thread days ago and either the reply was eaten or CCP removed it, I dont't know. In my original reply, I was highly critical of CCP and mentioned that the new war mechanics were pretty much garbage.

I think that the agressor should be able to call ONE ally for every TWO allies the defender calls. This would IMO, solve many of the problems.

Nothing is broken for anyone else but a bunch of crybabies who can't adapt.

And you sir, based on your stellar and vast experience in empire wars, make a very strong argument.
Question though, could you point me towards that history because I can't seem to find that.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#113 - 2012-06-08 00:08:31 UTC
I am glad I am in a wh corp. No one will war dec us, so we don't have to deal with it. Cool

No trolling please
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#114 - 2012-06-08 13:55:00 UTC
Wars pre-inferno

MERCS TAKE MAH MONEY!

Wars post-inferno

Mercs, you pay me for the priviledge to die in my service!

Seriously though... The new war system is worse than the old one for mercs and I'm not even a merc :D
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-06-08 14:45:59 UTC
Tauren Tom wrote:
Wars pre-inferno

MERCS TAKE MAH MONEY!

Wars post-inferno

Mercs, you pay me for the priviledge to die in my service!

Seriously though... The new war system is worse than the old one for mercs and I'm not even a merc :D


Still,

It's not CCP's fault that there are corps willing to offer their ally services for free.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#116 - 2012-06-08 17:48:21 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Tauren Tom wrote:
Wars pre-inferno

MERCS TAKE MAH MONEY!

Wars post-inferno

Mercs, you pay me for the priviledge to die in my service!

Seriously though... The new war system is worse than the old one for mercs and I'm not even a merc :D


Still,

It's not CCP's fault that there are corps willing to offer their ally services for free.


I have to agree with this. Outfits like 0rphanage and Malum Crusis were pretty much deccing other people for "free" (in this case, the contracting corporation/alliance paid the dec fee). So to see the (apparently former) CEO of Malum Crusis whine about merc contracts being "free" now is silly.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Aesheera
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-06-08 21:22:25 UTC
Anya Klibor wrote:

I have to agree with this. Outfits like 0rphanage and Malum Crusis were pretty much deccing other people for "free" (in this case, the contracting corporation/alliance paid the dec fee). So to see the (apparently former) CEO of Malum Crusis whine about merc contracts being "free" now is silly.

Ah cute.
Obviously it should be apparent that its on behalf of others then, not me.
After speaking to several notable groups and realising it is a commonly shared opinion that this system is in fact flawed, I went ahead and made this thread.
Dance around happy that you get to counterpost me assuming im whining or similar, at the end of the day the majority doesn't agree with you.
The fact that we see CSM, CCP and DEV posts in similar threads shows that there is definate debate going on about this topic and im certain we can expect tweaks in the future.

Hugs.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Blackcamper
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2012-06-09 03:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Blackcamper
well now that i have try out the new war dec system. i have to say i like it.

But i have found it is better to be the corp / alliance to war dec. as you get a lot more targets that way, if like to pvp.
you can allways join a defender side if things are slow.

I have to say we have war dec the 0rphanage, they have not ask for any suport. +1 for that.

i all so like it. and all the merc's that are complain, i don't get why you don't love it. get pay to kill **** and then get more tagets. how is more targets not always be better. -1 for that

I support this system.


kickining smurfs playing to have fun

There Was NO WARNING Of Their ARRIVAL! They Had No MERCY! They Gave NO QUARTER!

http://screenshotuploader.com/s/1307gxodd
Thurken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-06-11 23:22:36 UTC
I think the current system protects small corps and big alliances from beeing griefed a lot.
This is not bad in general.

Now when you want to wardec someone. You know you will need to have the isk to do so, when you want to shoot your enemy.

Nothing stops Aggressors to pay mercs to wardec their enemy, too.
Good mercs have been expensive and still are.

Defenders have it cheaper with freelancers, new players or bored pirates joining for hoping to find a fight.
Serious mercs like to see isk for their services. Will they join the Defender?

Also you maybe forget that the system works the other way around, too.
Big PvP Alliances can wardec a corp and hope for defenders to join to have enough targets for pew pew.

Let's see what will happen.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2012-06-12 03:20:57 UTC
Thurken wrote:
I think the current system protects small corps and big alliances from beeing griefed a lot.
This is not bad in general.

Now when you want to wardec someone. You know you will need to have the isk to do so, when you want to shoot your enemy.

Nothing stops Aggressors to pay mercs to wardec their enemy, too.
Good mercs have been expensive and still are.

Defenders have it cheaper with freelancers, new players or bored pirates joining for hoping to find a fight.
Serious mercs like to see isk for their services. Will they join the Defender?

Also you maybe forget that the system works the other way around, too.
Big PvP Alliances can wardec a corp and hope for defenders to join to have enough targets for pew pew.

Let's see what will happen.



I agree with this. Smaller alliances and corporations (mainly corporations and alliances that did a lot of missioning) became the targets of "mercenary" groups and griefers. With the ally system, those corporations and alliances now have a safety net, no longer needing to pay out-of-pocket to hire "mercenaries" who might not pull through for them.

I've told people on these boards before that you should make your ISK work for you and hire the mercenary group that suits your needs. But there were quite a few times where the outfit failed, refused to refund the contractor, then went on to say in their thread, "Yeah, we did our job there". Then they have alts inundate the thread, claiming to be "satisfied customers" of the outfit, or they ply the contractors for people who may have been "okay" with the job to give them positive reviews.

With this, CCP has made a move to make the defenders a bit stronger. No more worrying about your ISK possibly being scammed out of you, no more worrying about failure of people you hire. And I agree, true PvP corporations and alliances in high sec are getting the fights they want. Rebirth., for example, has had quite a few good wars.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.