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Minmatar ship help

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Me'lazu Shakor
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-07 14:36:14 UTC
ello everybody!

I have a question for you all and hopefully my new player-ness would be excused if i ask something obvious.

I have been playing for a few days and ive finished up my tutorial missions / im slowly skilling up / im working on agents and trying to figure out what i can expect in the future. Im sure alot of blowing up will be what comes to mind. I have been reading alot of guides and trying to come to speed on things as best i can. I am curious as to why is it that battleships are a must have for higher end missions? And if so why is it that caldari and amarr are the usual ships of choice in most of the guides i read? Would it be possible to run high end missions in minmatar ships? I don't really see myself as someone to be in a giant space brick, i picked minmatar because i was told they where fast agile get in and get out fighters. I like game play like that and i would like to keep it that way if i could. Can anyone give me some suggestions as far as ship setups i should be looking into and skilling up for? -Preferably non battleship?
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#2 - 2012-06-07 14:47:16 UTC
Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
ello everybody!

I have a question for you all and hopefully my new player-ness would be excused if i ask something obvious.

I have been playing for a few days and ive finished up my tutorial missions / im slowly skilling up / im working on agents and trying to figure out what i can expect in the future. Im sure alot of blowing up will be what comes to mind. I have been reading alot of guides and trying to come to speed on things as best i can. I am curious as to why is it that battleships are a must have for higher end missions? And if so why is it that caldari and amarr are the usual ships of choice in most of the guides i read? Would it be possible to run high end missions in minmatar ships? I don't really see myself as someone to be in a giant space brick, i picked minmatar because i was told they where fast agile get in and get out fighters. I like game play like that and i would like to keep it that way if i could. Can anyone give me some suggestions as far as ship setups i should be looking into and skilling up for? -Preferably non battleship?


If you want to get into pvp fly a rifter. You can then easily get into a thrasher (these two ships will keep you busy).

If you are doing missions I have no idea :)
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-06-07 14:47:33 UTC
Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
I am curious as to why is it that battleships are a must have for higher end missions?


Because you start to encounter enemy Battleships, so you'll need the tankyness and firepower provided by one of your own to tackle them.

Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
ello everybody!
And if so why is it that caldari and amarr are the usual ships of choice in most of the guides i read? Would it be possible to run high end missions in minmatar ships?


You're probably reading the wrong guides. Each of the four factions can run missions just as well the others.

Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
I don't really see myself as someone to be in a giant space brick, i picked minmatar because i was told they where fast agile get in and get out fighters.


Minmatar ships are more agile and faster. A Minmatar Battlecruiser is a lot faster than most other Battlecruisers, for example. It is all relative.

Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
Can anyone give me some suggestions as far as ship setups i should be looking into and skilling up for? -Preferably non battleship?


As a new player, you can't go wrong with a Hurricane. One of the faster Battlecruisers around, and can tackle up to Lv3 missions without much difficulty. If that is a bit out of your price range, you can't go wrong with a Rupture. Very good Cruiser that can tackle up to Lv2 missions well. Some claim to be able to run Lv3s in a well-fitted/skilled Cruiser, but I have my doubts.

For Lv4 and onwards though, you'd really want a Battleship, however.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Me'lazu Shakor
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-06-07 14:54:36 UTC
It will be sometime before i PVP, i know if i pvp now i will die a horrible death, so until then im just doing missions to help keep the cash flowing while i train up. I will PvP later on when i actually have teeth instead of razor sharp gums. for now its just missions for me im affraid. I just don't want to be stuck using a space brick :'( i like nimble dodge and weave style combat.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-06-07 15:03:32 UTC
if you are planning on running some lvl4 missions (lvl5s cannot be solo'd effectively), here is some numbers for you to consider:
- in most missions, you will have to kill enemies outside of 50km, in some of them even as far as 120km.
- most minmatar ships under battleship size have effective weapon ranges under 30km, whereas battleships can reach out to 70km and beyond
- assuming you're flying 500m/s, you will need 40 seconds to several minutes of travel to even start shooting
- a typical lvl4 will contain a dozen or more pirate battleships, each of them having over 20000hp
- a well-fitted battleship can deal over 1000dps, while most cruiser-sized ships are usually around 500

i'll spare you the tanking part of the issue as the problem should be pretty clear by now.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#6 - 2012-06-07 15:05:03 UTC
Missions are much more than point and click i'm afraid, at least until you get to LVL4s (but you should be PVPing by then :))

Rupture should do fine for lvls 2 and 3
Me'lazu Shakor
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-06-07 15:12:35 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
if you are planning on running some lvl4 missions (lvl5s cannot be solo'd effectively), here is some numbers for you to consider:
- in most missions, you will have to kill enemies outside of 50km, in some of them even as far as 120km.
- most minmatar ships under battleship size have effective weapon ranges under 30km, whereas battleships can reach out to 70km and beyond
- assuming you're flying 500m/s, you will need 40 seconds to several minutes of travel to even start shooting
- a typical lvl4 will contain a dozen or more pirate battleships, each of them having over 20000hp
- a well-fitted battleship can deal over 1000dps, while most cruiser-sized ships are usually around 500

i'll spare you the tanking part of the issue as the problem should be pretty clear by now.



So it looks like ill be stuck flying a space pig in the future then.... I figured if anything a battlecruiser would be able to stand up to the punishment of higher end missions maybe the tech 2 versions or something. i was really crossing my fingers and wishing i did not have to train anyhing above a battlecruiser. :(
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#8 - 2012-06-07 15:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
Below the Battleship line, there's plenty of maneuverability and quick combat for Minmatar ships. If you truly want to PvP, you may not even get as far as Level 4's. By the time you get into a Hurricane and run Level 3's, you may decide that's as big as you want to go, and only use mission running as a supplement to PvP.

Once your skills (and cash) are high enough, something like a Cynabal cruiser will walk through Level 3's. That has been the fastest, most fun ship in the line for me. It lends itself to strafing runs and nimble moves while still hurting the rats.

If Level 4 missions is where you want to be, you'll have to be in a Maelstrom for a while, which is definitely a brick. It's slow, takes forever to align... and also takes hella punishment. It will be your bread and butter for a good while.

Then comes the Machariel, the Angel Cartel faction battleship. The king of Level 4 missions, as most agree. It has the durability it needs, and unequaled speed and agility for a BS. It handles like a BC, plus it spews ammunition at a mind-boggling rate. I just got mine, and merely flying it back to my station I could tell immediatley the immense difference in handling from the Mael.

All in all, you will have decided which path you want to pursue long before you can afford (cash or skill wise) to fly battleships well. Train your basic skills, move ship to ship, and see what works for you. You have a lot of time ahead to make your decisions.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-06-07 15:15:27 UTC
take a look at the machariel. it's almost as fast and agile as a battlecruiser in addition to looking badass.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Me'lazu Shakor
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-06-07 15:27:11 UTC
Aeril Malkyre wrote:
Below the Battleship line, there's plenty of maneuverability and quick combat for Minmatar ships. If you truly want to PvP, you may not even get as far as Level 4's. By the time you get into a Hurricane and run Level 3's, you may decide that's as big as you want to go, and only use mission running as a supplement to PvP.

Once your skills (and cash) are high enough, something like a Cynabal cruiser will walk through Level 3's. That has been the fastest, most fun ship in the line for me. It lends itself to strafing runs and nimble moves while still hurting the rats.

If Level 4 missions is where you want to be, you'll have to be in a Maelstrom for a while, which is definitely a brick. It's slow, takes forever to align... and also takes hella punishment. It will be your bread and butter for a good while.

Then comes the Machariel, the Angel Cartel faction battleship. The king of Level 4 missions, as most agree. It has the durability it needs, and unequaled speed and agility for a BS. It handles like a BC, plus it spews ammunition at a mind-boggling rate. I just got mine, and merely flying it back to my station I could tell immediatley the immense difference in handling from the Mael.

All in all, you will have decided which path you want to pursue long before you can afford (cash or skill wise) to fly battleships well. Train your basic skills, move ship to ship, and see what works for you. You have a lot of time ahead to make your decisions.



My biggest fear is having fun with fast agile ships doing missions 1-3 and then move to 4 and consider them deardful bore because of the uneventful you-slug-me-i-slug-you-fest. I plan to just use mission running to fund PVP but at the same time i don't want to have to farm my life away just because i stick to level 3 missions instead of level 4. I rather just bite the bullet train for space cows and save myself farming time later so i can get back to pvp. I do like the thought of dropping 30 tons of ammunition at lightning speeds. But atleast that gives me something to look foward too while i train up.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-06-07 15:31:13 UTC
Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
My biggest fear is having fun with fast agile ships doing missions 1-3 and then move to 4 and consider them deardful bore because of the uneventful you-slug-me-i-slug-you-fest. I plan to just use mission running to fund PVP but at the same time i don't want to have to farm my life away just because i stick to level 3 missions instead of level 4. I rather just bite the bullet train for space cows and save myself farming time later so i can get back to pvp. I do like the thought of dropping 30 tons of ammunition at lightning speeds. But atleast that gives me something to look foward too while i train up.


while flying around with the speed of a thousand monkeys is undoubtedly awesome, pressing a button to see a battlecruiser 50km away evaporate instantly also has its merits.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-06-07 15:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Don't forget the Vargur. As it is built for Auto-Cannons rather than Artillery, it is a thousand times more fun to fly than a Maelstrom. Also: there is a big difference between PvE and PvP. In PvE it is tank or nothing, so the bigger the ship the better. In PvP though, smaller and faster ships do have several important roles to fill. Bigger is not better when it comes to PvP.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#13 - 2012-06-07 15:39:55 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
while flying around with the speed of a thousand monkeys is undoubtedly awesome, pressing a button to see a battlecruiser 50km away evaporate instantly also has its merits.

Well put. For the longest time I stubbornly refused to switch to Autocannons, even knowing they were better for the missions I was running, just because a volley of 1400mm Artillery Cannons is just so... damn... wonderful.

Click.
BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM*
Dead.
Click.
BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM*
Dead.



* I had them grouped by 2's
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-06-07 15:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Jafit
Me'lazu Shakor wrote:
It will be sometime before i PVP, i know if i pvp now i will die a horrible death, so until then im just doing missions to help keep the cash flowing while i train up. I will PvP later on when i actually have teeth instead of razor sharp gums. for now its just missions for me im affraid. I just don't want to be stuck using a space brick :'( i like nimble dodge and weave style combat.


I would recommend against this course of action, simply because it is very easy to fall into the trap of 'just one more skill' and end up never doing what you really want to do. Get a Rifter and join a Factional Warfare, Red Vs Blue, or a corp that does some form of PvP. Then do missions in between to get money. or just scavange from the wrecks of your enemies. You can easilly buy a Rifter or two by scooping up T2 drones after a fight. Learn now while your ships are cheap.

Caldari are popular for PvE because with missiles you don't have to worry about tracking or falloff, you just press the buttan and pop things within your range, plus you can change damage types. Amarr are very tanky and can do full potential damage at great ranges, even with their 'short range' guns. Those races have Tech 3 cruisers well suited for PvE.

You will do fine in PvE with a Minmatar ship, though you will probably have to go for a battleship as the T2 and T3 cruisers are more speced for PvP.

Don't worry, PvE is boring, you might end up being glad for not having to pay too much attention to your slowass ship as you kill rats.

I recommend reading up on your options with this guy's blog:
http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/01/know-your-enemy-battleships-part-1.html
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#15 - 2012-06-07 15:59:24 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
- in most missions, you will have to kill enemies outside of 50km, in some of them even as far as 120km.


It depends. Most of the Minmatar missions I've run have you fighting Angels, which prefer to be in the 2-40km range (with most BSes either sitting at 10-ish or 35-ish). So, a Mael with ACs will tear them up.

Also, @OP, if you're interested in purely sub-BS ships, you might want to consider looking at the Sleipner. It's the MInmatar T2 combat BC. It has a BS-ish tank and pretty good DPS. It is limited somewhat by its range, but you can AB over to rats if you aren't in a big hurry (and only 1-2 types of Angel rats actually even want to sit outside of its range anyways, most sit right in the middle of falloff).

Sleip isn't the optimal lvl 4 runner, but it's pretty decent if you don't want to fly a BS at all. Same goes for the Loki too. And if you're willing to fly a BS but want a fast one, then a Mach is good.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-06-07 16:08:42 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
- in most missions, you will have to kill enemies outside of 50km, in some of them even as far as 120km.


It depends. Most of the Minmatar missions I've run have you fighting Angels, which prefer to be in the 2-40km range (with most BSes either sitting at 10-ish or 35-ish). So, a Mael with ACs will tear them up.

Also, @OP, if you're interested in purely sub-BS ships, you might want to consider looking at the Sleipner. It's the MInmatar T2 combat BC. It has a BS-ish tank and pretty good DPS. It is limited somewhat by its range, but you can AB over to rats if you aren't in a big hurry (and only 1-2 types of Angel rats actually even want to sit outside of its range anyways, most sit right in the middle of falloff).

Sleip isn't the optimal lvl 4 runner, but it's pretty decent if you don't want to fly a BS at all. Same goes for the Loki too. And if you're willing to fly a BS but want a fast one, then a Mach is good.


while this is true in general, please consider that NPCs also do not have infinite movement speed. when it comes to missions, every second you did not spend either warping or applying DPS is a second you lost.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-06-07 16:26:09 UTC
Rifter->Thrasher->Ruppy->Hurricane is a nice road, then lvl4's an 800mm Maelstrom will simply **** everything.

As for your training I don't know if you have some plan or attributes advice so I'll go the easy road and try to make it simple.

Skill planning -> download Evemoon, edit char and enter your char API/vCode

When you create that API make sure you have all cases check just in case, you can edit that one and change it or create new ones/delete older ones.

Evemoon will help you to understand how much time/skills are needed to properly fly whatever ship. You can also check what is your best attribute settings for this first plan, chekt it out, eventually ask some advices and now you start training at your best rate.

Some little stuff that helps you I hope.

Also: eventually join some noob training corp like Eve University or RvB, those are good corps for starting players, they provide you nice skilling plans and pvp training.

Also: welcome

brb
Me'lazu Shakor
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-06-07 16:44:53 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:

Also: welcome



Thanks for the welcome, i think the biggest problem i face is i know i will be all over frigate PVP it seems like so much fun / do or die / style pvp and thats the style i like. But i also want to make cash as i go without going crazy over BS's i know i wont be flying for pvp and such. I was crossing my fingers as to not train above Tech2 BC's etc.. -From the look of it ill have too. But right now im focussing strickly on PVE because i do need to make some income and buy skills / train up / etc...

I don't really see myself flying anything above BC for PVP and honestly in PVE as well. I guess ill stick to lvl3's and just not move up.
Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#19 - 2012-06-07 16:57:12 UTC
As others have said, if you want to do PVP, then join Red versus Blue as soon as you can afford to replace a Rifter. RvB are two Corporations permanently war dec’ed with each other for plenty of good PVP action. It is good natured, and they even work together if threatened by a third party. You will learn a lot, and there will be some Noobs like you in the apposing corp as well, so you might not always be at a disadvantage.

For level 4 missions, find someone that flies a space brick, and then offer to clear out all the annoying frigates and cruisers if they let you tag along and share the rewards and salvage. Most battleship losses in level 4 missions are due to rat frigates getting too close for the battleship to hit and warp scrambling it so it can’t run away. Drones help with this, but I am sure a lot of Battleship pilots would be happy to only have to worry about the NPC Battleships and Battlecruisers. When I used to do level 4 missions I was multiboxing with two characters. One would always be in a Battlecruiser or smaller to take out the small stuff. Although if you go smaller than Battlecruiser in a level 4 you have to be carful not to get agro. In a level 3 mission even a Rifter can be handy as long as there is a bigger ship to tank damage.

As an income alternative to mission running, do some research into Planetary Interaction (PI).
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#20 - 2012-06-07 17:03:58 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
mxzf wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
- in most missions, you will have to kill enemies outside of 50km, in some of them even as far as 120km.


It depends. Most of the Minmatar missions I've run have you fighting Angels, which prefer to be in the 2-40km range (with most BSes either sitting at 10-ish or 35-ish). So, a Mael with ACs will tear them up.

Also, @OP, if you're interested in purely sub-BS ships, you might want to consider looking at the Sleipner. It's the MInmatar T2 combat BC. It has a BS-ish tank and pretty good DPS. It is limited somewhat by its range, but you can AB over to rats if you aren't in a big hurry (and only 1-2 types of Angel rats actually even want to sit outside of its range anyways, most sit right in the middle of falloff).

Sleip isn't the optimal lvl 4 runner, but it's pretty decent if you don't want to fly a BS at all. Same goes for the Loki too. And if you're willing to fly a BS but want a fast one, then a Mach is good.


while this is true in general, please consider that NPCs also do not have infinite movement speed. when it comes to missions, every second you did not spend either warping or applying DPS is a second you lost.


That is completely true. Which is why I didn't list it as a perfect competitor to a BS, just an option if he was willing to sacrifice some efficiency to avoid training BS at all (not the most efficient way to run missions, but a perfectly viable playstyle choice in Eve).
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