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[Proposal] Aegis Destroyers

Author
Valerie Tessel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-05-29 22:05:44 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Valerie Tessel wrote:
Interception (physically block part of the shot)[list]
  • Defender Missiles!

  • I fixed this for you.

    /thread.

    Roll (have a look through the thread...)

    Those only work against missiles... This is about more than that. Granted, making defender missiles worth using wouldn't be a bad thing. This is about more than that though. Defender missiles will not lead to:
    - Defensive play against hybrids, lasers and projectiles
    - Reduction of alpha-centric tactics
    - Positional play, i.e. maneuver as a greater tactical component
    - Increased role for cheap, disposable, low-skill ships / modules

    Not to mention that defender missiles only defend you, if I recall correctly.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Mallak Azaria
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #42 - 2012-05-30 07:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
    I get what you're aiming at here, but this idea has been brought up many times in the past & shot down each & every time.

    Lets say you have 2 blob fleets facing each other, both completely protected by these Aegis Destroyers. Both fleets need smaller ships to kill the 'Ship creating big shield preventing all incomming damage'. Smaller ships race toward said Aegis Destroyer, out of the protection of their own. The small ships on both side get alpha'd. The result? 2 blob fleets are still facing each other & the only damage happening was on some cheap frigates.

    I'm not denying that it's a cool idea in theory, but cool theories often don't work out in this game.

    This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #43 - 2012-05-30 14:28:05 UTC
    Mallak Azaria wrote:
    I get what you're aiming at here, but this idea has been brought up many times in the past & shot down each & every time.

    Lets say you have 2 blob fleets facing each other, both completely protected by these Aegis Destroyers. Both fleets need smaller ships to kill the 'Ship creating big shield preventing all incomming damage'. Smaller ships race toward said Aegis Destroyer, out of the protection of their own. The small ships on both side get alpha'd. The result? 2 blob fleets are still facing each other & the only damage happening was on some cheap frigates.

    I'm not denying that it's a cool idea in theory, but cool theories often don't work out in this game.

    The difference here is that these destroyers should never be able to provide complete protection. Sniping destroyers could fire from protection to tear a hole in coverage. Have a read through the countering tactics post on page 2 (linked from initial post).

    There's no "big shield" with these things as protection requires targeting a friendly and dedicating a module to it, and they can't shield against small stuff. Presumably the big alpha is coming from cruisers and battleships, which would also have trouble hitting frigates. Clouds of drones might prevent frigates from penetrating, but the drones are vulnerable too.

    If it's a good idea, the balancing can be worked out, and not necessarily by us here in this thread. This thread asks that the proposal be put to the CSM and brought up for discussion with CCP. If you like the notion, support it. Do critique it, do help refine it, but please support it.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Grand Zap
    Abysmal Void Armada
    #44 - 2012-06-06 15:51:53 UTC
    I'm not trolling when I say you did not use the word-phrase defender missiles in the original post.
    Reaver Glitterstim
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #45 - 2012-06-07 05:29:39 UTC
    I think that the gap you speak of makes sense for EVE combat. It is 3-dimensional and filled with open, empty space. If shots coming at you are going to be blocked, you can't really expect your friend next to you to be carrying the shield. It makes a lot more sense for the blocking ship to be blocking damage from itself.

    But prevention of the attack can be done against anyone shooting-regardless of who they're shooting at-with electronic warfare.

    FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

    Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #46 - 2012-06-07 14:31:03 UTC
    Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
    I think that the gap you speak of makes sense for EVE combat. It is 3-dimensional and filled with open, empty space. If shots coming at you are going to be blocked, you can't really expect your friend next to you to be carrying the shield. It makes a lot more sense for the blocking ship to be blocking damage from itself.

    But prevention of the attack can be done against anyone shooting-regardless of who they're shooting at-with electronic warfare.

    As Grand Zap mentions above, there are already defender missiles in the game, which is a slight nod to the capabilities I'm talking about. They are always a bad trade-off though, and they only defend you, and only from missiles.

    Technology in the context of EVE combat would develop so that you could interfere with incoming fire. I'm looking to make it so that you can interfere with the incoming fire on behalf of a friendly. Whether the explanation be "smart reflective chaff" for deflection of lasers or the super-duper-sci-fi explanation of such a technology is irrelevant. The new mechanic, and the new tactics it would lead to are worthy addition, I think.

    Line-of-sight hasn't been implemented because it's computationally expensive and impractical for EVE. But that doesn't mean there isn't a way to bring maneuver into the game in a better fashion than range and transversal management. But not having done the math, I don't know if this could be done the way I describe in this thread. Even if positional effectiveness doesn't play a part in the implementation, active defense still has a place.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #47 - 2012-06-07 14:34:49 UTC
    Grand Zap wrote:
    I'm not trolling when I say you did not use the word-phrase defender missiles in the original post.

    Fixed. Smile

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Mocam
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #48 - 2012-06-10 12:06:22 UTC
    You already have a good deal of these options with respect to skill trees and modules that exist.

    Leadership skills & their associated modules increase resists and the like *IF* you choose to use them that way.

    The only low-end limit I might see would be allowing a specifically designed destroyer model to use them - the old "small gang command ship" suggestion.

    As such, your module recommendation would be in addition to what these command modules and skill trees do - which is a very big boost in a direction that can turn major fleet fights into mini-POS bashes with the composite.

    I don't know... It just seems to have the potential to be way overpowered or lessening the value of things already existing.
    Easthir Ravin
    Easy Co.
    #49 - 2012-06-11 03:23:28 UTC
    Greetings

    All for new shiny sh*t! Assuming the math works right I support the idea! This seems to me to be the perfect roll for a Tech3 destroyer.

    vr
    East

    IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #50 - 2012-06-11 15:45:42 UTC
    Mocam wrote:
    You already have a good deal of these options with respect to skill trees and modules that exist.

    Leadership skills & their associated modules increase resists and the like *IF* you choose to use them that way.

    The only low-end limit I might see would be allowing a specifically designed destroyer model to use them - the old "small gang command ship" suggestion.

    As such, your module recommendation would be in addition to what these command modules and skill trees do - which is a very big boost in a direction that can turn major fleet fights into mini-POS bashes with the composite.

    I don't know... It just seems to have the potential to be way overpowered or lessening the value of things already existing.

    That is definitely a concern.

    But one of the things I mention in the Counters post is a new combat tractor that would literally allow a frigate to yank the destroyers out of position. The idea certainly isn't about creating a POS bash, but it is about creating a frigate-fest as an opening to each battle. Noobs in frigates and destroyers wouldn't be just a good idea, they'd be needed and actively recruited (I hope).

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #51 - 2012-06-11 15:50:21 UTC
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    Greetings

    All for new shiny sh*t! Assuming the math works right I support the idea! This seems to me to be the perfect roll for a Tech3 destroyer.

    vr
    East

    Thank you for your support. Lol

    My only worry with a Tech 3 destroyer is that would make already diluted cruisers entirely useless (T3 is about versatility at an efficiency level between Tech 2 and Tech 1). Destroyers today are characterized by a frigate tank with roughly double a frigate's punch. I can see making an Aegis Destroyer another tech 2 hull, but I'd prefer a brand new tech 1 destroyer with a role bonus.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Easthir Ravin
    Easy Co.
    #52 - 2012-06-12 11:43:24 UTC
    Valerie Tessel wrote:
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    Greetings

    All for new shiny sh*t! Assuming the math works right I support the idea! This seems to me to be the perfect roll for a Tech3 destroyer.

    vr
    East

    Thank you for your support. Lol

    My only worry with a Tech 3 destroyer is that would make already diluted cruisers entirely useless (T3 is about versatility at an efficiency level between Tech 2 and Tech 1). Destroyers today are characterized by a frigate tank with roughly double a frigate's punch. I can see making an Aegis Destroyer another tech 2 hull, but I'd prefer a brand new tech 1 destroyer with a role bonus.



    Damn, you had to go all technical on us. I thought T3 stuff was so bitter vets could have something new shinny and completely full of awesomeness so as to thumb our nullbear wealth at the lowly rabble of high-sec.

    IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #53 - 2012-06-12 15:53:29 UTC
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    Valerie Tessel wrote:
    Easthir Ravin wrote:
    Greetings

    All for new shiny sh*t! Assuming the math works right I support the idea! This seems to me to be the perfect roll for a Tech3 destroyer.

    vr
    East

    Thank you for your support. Lol

    My only worry with a Tech 3 destroyer is that would make already diluted cruisers entirely useless (T3 is about versatility at an efficiency level between Tech 2 and Tech 1). Destroyers today are characterized by a frigate tank with roughly double a frigate's punch. I can see making an Aegis Destroyer another tech 2 hull, but I'd prefer a brand new tech 1 destroyer with a role bonus.



    Damn, you had to go all technical on us. I thought T3 stuff was so bitter vets could have something new shinny and completely full of awesomeness so as to thumb our nullbear wealth at the lowly rabble of high-sec.


    Well if you put it that way... Big smile

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Kaikka Carel
    Ziea
    #54 - 2012-06-16 07:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaikka Carel
    Arduemont wrote:

    Okay. But a logistic ship can have the same effect by having reps on something before the attack begins. If the effect these new ships have, were to be effective without targeting your allies (eg. over the anti-weapons' range, 50k or something), then there were would be a big enough difference in my opinion. How then would the ships mod decide who to protect and who not to? Only those in fleet? By standing? By corp or alliance?

    I do see another problem though. A fleet of these ships could be used to make a fleet completely invincible to any fleet smaller than it.

    There is a partial solution to that of course. It would be good to see the ships mod shooting projectiles out of space without collaboration ie, they randomly choose a projectile to shoot at. This would mean that the more ships you had that did this, the more likely they were to be shooting the same projectiles (ie negating some of their effect).

    Which would mean the more of these dessies you had in a fleet the more likely they would be to end up shooting the same targets and wasting their effect. It would also mean the bigger the enemy fleet (ie, the more projectiles coming) the less likely statistically they would be to shoot at the same projectiles as each other. It might actually scale quite nicely. It would give small fleets more effect against big ones and big ones less effect against small ones... and so on and so forth. That is only a small fix to the problem though. I still think they would be difficult to balance in numbers.

    There are a lot of concepts to be ironed out. I'm not giving my support to this thread quite yet. But neither am I dismissing it.


    First of all you totally mix the concept of active and passive protection.

    Second iirc EVE projectiles and missiles only count where they were shot from and where they were shot to. Then you just negate a percentage(not all of it!) of damage on the receiving end if it is within the range of the module. May even add a factor of how much distances is between the edge of modules range and the protected ship on the vector of projectile's/missile's path to determine the exact effectivness. This way a close range brawl would be more effective since the distances between the target are minimal at default which would potentially lead to the rise of blaster boat doctrines.

    Add some special effects to make it beautiful so that the pilots that use them won't be bored.
    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #55 - 2012-06-21 14:59:39 UTC
    Kaikka Carel wrote:
    Arduemont wrote:

    [snip]


    [snip]

    Second iirc EVE projectiles and missiles only count where they were shot from and where they were shot to. Then you just negate a percentage(not all of it!) of damage on the receiving end if it is within the range of the module. May even add a factor of how much distances is between the edge of modules range and the protected ship on the vector of projectile's/missile's path to determine the exact effectiveness. This way a close range brawl would be more effective since the distances between the target are minimal at default which would potentially lead to the rise of blaster boat doctrines.

    Add some special effects to make it beautiful so that the pilots that use them won't be bored.

    I certainly like the notion of having another potential response be to commit Gallente blaster boats early in the fight to negate the effects of the Aegis destroyers.

    In another post regarding effectiveness of active defense, I mentioned that distance from the midpoint made a significant difference. The closer an attacker is to the target, the more difficult it would be for the destroyer to get in the middle. That's another potential counter instead of the frigate fest. So Minmatar can dictate range, but the range advantage is offset to some degree by the destroyers if the attackers move to use it.

    Interesting thought.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Jack Carrigan
    Order of the Shadow
    #56 - 2012-06-22 16:36:56 UTC
    Still not a bad idea, if handled properly.

    I still would go with point defense (such as Phalanx CIWS-type modules).

    I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

    ||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #57 - 2012-06-29 15:22:29 UTC
    Jack Carrigan wrote:
    Still not a bad idea, if handled properly.

    I still would go with point defense (such as Phalanx CIWS-type modules).

    That's the idea, only fitted on a specialized destroyer platform, not on the targeted friendly.

    Any other thoughts anyone?

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Laechyd Eldgorn
    Avanto
    Hole Control
    #58 - 2012-06-30 10:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn
    This thread belongs to features and ideas.

    Idea has multiple flaws and is not even closely properly finished to be discussed or evaluated seriously.
    Valerie Tessel
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2012-06-30 21:34:51 UTC
    Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:
    This thread belongs to features and ideas.

    Quite possible.
    Laechyd Eldgorn wrote:

    Idea has multiple flaws and is not even closely properly finished to be discussed or evaluated seriously.

    Nonsense. An idea needn't be finished, nor does it need to be flawless to be discussed or evaluated seriously or otherwise. If your assertion "there are multiple flaws" is meant to support your notion that the idea can't be discussed, then there would never be any discussion of anything because no ideas are perfect.

    The idea itself is to fill a gap in the means of defense. The illustrated thumbnail of a possible implementation is for a new ship role, new ship, new modules and new skills.

    Is this a design specification? No. That's not how you define requirements. Does this have all angles explored? No. That's why there's a thread to discuss it. We aren't Eve devs, Eve designers, or Eve producers, so we shouldn't tell them exactly how to make the feature. We should merely give the general idea of what we want. In that sense, the fleet battle story on page two is more important than lists of modules and skills, and assigning numbers to everything.

    Or perhaps you didn't read the thread, and only read the first post.

    Tactical destroyers... I'll take a dozen Gallente, please.

    Demonthese2211
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2012-07-01 06:23:07 UTC
    Valerie Tessel wrote:
    Having more complexity for fleet fights is certainly one of the aims of this idea.

    [quote=Ayla Hanaya]
    Position and Effectiveness
    First, the limitations of positional requirements: distance to line of fire, and perhaps distance to protected target are factors in the effectiveness of the modules. The closer the Aegis destroyer is to the line of fire between attacker and protected target, the more time the module has to intercept incoming fire, hence the more effectively it places the countermeasure.

    The notion of reaction time also generates the second factor for effectiveness. The closer the Aegis destroyer is to the midpoint of the line between attacker and protected target, the more effective the countermeasure is. Being too close to the attacker reduces reaction time, being too close to the protected target reduces the space in which protective measures may be deployed. The ideal position for an Aegis destroyer, then, is midway between attacker and protected target, directly on, or very near the line of fire.

    Naturally, skills at using the modules, and the effectiveness of the modules themselves would also be a factor. Beyond that, the effectiveness should also be proportional to the size of the weapons system, in the same way that weapons system size affects ability to hit targets today. Incoming fire from a frigate would be nearly impossible to intercept, whereas incoming fire from a battleship is much easier to mitigate.



    You mention here that the optimum place for your aegis destroyer would be halfway between the blobs. Assuming this is true and it is not just as efficient to have them in your fleet this opens some interesting strategies. Mainly the idea of flanking, and the various ways that it can be achieved. This would either lead to a greater possibility of gang/fleet fights involving much more tactical maneuvering or excess complexity that only serves to frustrate people. Another major scenario to consider is that of a stalemate, essentially two groups with optimal interception run into each other. Suddenly neither side is doing damage and a stalemate ensues.

    I will say this is an interesting idea. I wouldn't fully support this as is, but if it can be fleshed out and it fits then it would add some very interesting gameplay. If it was introduced I would rather it be a T2 variant of the new destroyer hulls coming out than a low entry T1 hull.