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The Plight of the Rifter
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#21 - 2012-06-06 21:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.


You don't. You kite them -inside- web/scram range because your rifter should have a scram and a web.


Quote:
1. You fit 200mm ACs if you want competitive DPS. You fit 150mm ACs when you acknowledge your DPS can't touch the Merlin or Incursus but you're hoping your opponent to DC or a for wild snorlax to appear.
2. That utility high-slot on your Merlin would be offline unless you planned to lose DPS, Tackle, Tank or Speed in order to online it. So, yes, useless.


So you insist on using the absolute largest-caliber guns and subsequently complain about the lack of fittings. Fun fact: a rifter with 125mm gatling autos will have almost exactly the same DPS as a rifter with 200mm autos and no rocket launcher. The Adding a rocket launcher also eats less fittings.


Quote:
3. 3 Highs and 3 Turrets IS better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets when you consider what the Rifter has to sacrifice in order to have that spare highslot. Ie, DPS, Tank, Speed, or a useful Mid or Low slot.


There are tons of good rifter fits that use the last hislot. ****, even if you have almost no fittings left over you can use a rocket launcher.


Quote:
4. Fit a web to a Rifter and you lose, a) Prop mod, b) Tackle, c) Tank or d) Your speed advantage. In either case you are now at an even greater disadvantage than you were before.


Shield rifter is not the only rifter.
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#22 - 2012-06-06 23:16:53 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:

How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.


You don't have to kite outside web/scram range, just be faster than the other ship that is scramming and webbing you. You are still faster than a Merlin that is webbing and scramming you as long as you are scramming and webbing it, and you still are MUCH better at projecting your damage at range. Even with Null, the Merlin's DPS falls WAY off at distances greater than about 4k, were as with Barrage your rifter will put out good DPS to 8-10k. You just need to be smart about holding range and manually piloting your self into a good orbit.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-06-07 00:02:50 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Just the kind of garbage response I was expecting, but had hoped to avoid.

1. You fit 200mm ACs if you want competitive DPS. You fit 150mm ACs when you acknowledge your DPS can't touch the Merlin or Incursus but you're hoping your opponent to DC or a for wild snorlax to appear.
2. That utility high-slot on your Merlin would be offline unless you planned to lose DPS, Tackle, Tank or Speed in order to online it. So, yes, useless.
3. 3 Highs and 3 Turrets IS better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets when you consider what the Rifter has to sacrifice in order to have that spare highslot. Ie, DPS, Tank, Speed, or a useful Mid or Low slot.
4. Fit a web to a Rifter and you lose, a) Prop mod, b) Tackle, c) Tank or d) Your speed advantage. In either case you are now at an even greater disadvantage than you were before.

Please use your brain before posting any more of your drivel, forcing me to your level just to reply. I feel so dirty now.


OK... Wow... Where to Begin...
First, let me say that I am shocked by your density.
1: Lower Tier Guns + Damage Mods/Tracking Mods > Higher Tier Guns + Gimped Fit / Fitting Mods in 99.99% of Situations.
2: So Gaining DPS from a Rocket Launcher means you Lose DPS?
3: If you Insist that the Spare High is useless, dont use it. Im not complaining.
4: Or... you know... Fit a Web? I dont know how much more i have to repeat this untill you Understand it. Theres this thing Caller 'Armor'. Fit a Plate and you can have a) Propmod b) Scram c) Web. Who Knew!

You have multiple well respected people in your thread telling you that the rifter is still viable. You have two Rifterlings Telling you that the Rifter is still Viable - RIFTERLINGS for ****'s sake - they know Rifters better than you do, and they are telling you they are still viable. I said it before, others have said it before, but you dont get it: Think Outside the Box. Cookie Cutter Merlin fits Counter your Rifter, so make a fit to Counter the Cookie Cutter Merlins. Not that Difficult.

Let me spell it out for you again, incase you missed everyone else' posts: Rifter doesnt Suck, you do.

I believe this:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Just the kind of garbage response I was expecting, but had hoped to avoid.

And This:
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Please use your brain before posting any more of your drivel, forcing me to your level just to reply. I feel so dirty now.

Apply in this situation.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#24 - 2012-06-07 01:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dynast
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Mira Lynne wrote:

Ok... Where to begin?
1: Nobody Said you NEED to fit 200mm ACs. I hear theres these things called 150mm ACs that use less Powergrid.
2: Uh-huh. Its totally Useless. Hey, if you dont want that Utility High, Im sure my merlin would love it! (Seriously)
3: Let me get this Straight - Youre saying that 3 Highs and 3 Turrets is better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets? Neuts and Nos are Bad now? Also, theres these things called Rocket Launchers. They Do damage.
4: So... Fit a Web? Rifter has 3 Mids you know. Thats enough for Web Scram Propmod


Just the kind of garbage response I was expecting, but had hoped to avoid.

1. You fit 200mm ACs if you want competitive DPS. You fit 150mm ACs when you acknowledge your DPS can't touch the Merlin or Incursus but you're hoping your opponent to DC or a for wild snorlax to appear.
2. That utility high-slot on your Merlin would be offline unless you planned to lose DPS, Tackle, Tank or Speed in order to online it. So, yes, useless.
3. 3 Highs and 3 Turrets IS better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets when you consider what the Rifter has to sacrifice in order to have that spare highslot. Ie, DPS, Tank, Speed, or a useful Mid or Low slot.
4. Fit a web to a Rifter and you lose, a) Prop mod, b) Tackle, c) Tank or d) Your speed advantage. In either case you are now at an even greater disadvantage than you were before.

Please use your brain before posting any more of your drivel, forcing me to your level just to reply. I feel so dirty now.

Dude, the problem is with you. There's really no two ways about this, if you used to be able to win against other decent t1 frigs before the changes but are incapable of doing so post-patch, this suggests that your piloting is not particularly good and most of the outcome was determined by the rifter being vastly superior to other t1 frigs. The rifter is still a good ship, it's just no longer undisputed king of the hill.. it's in a similar position to the Dramiel, which used to be easy-mode against similar hulls, but is still very strong. You need to adapt your fittings and piloting to a world in which you do not start fights against other t1 frigs with a substantial advantage.

Or switch to the Incursus, that ship might be a smidge OP.
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2012-06-07 01:22:54 UTC
eh its not top dog anymore who cares, still seeing quite a few of them

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#26 - 2012-06-07 07:15:06 UTC
Minmatar are supposed to offer:

The fastest ships
A little bit of everything else

Does the rifter do that? Yes. Does it have the best DPS? No. Does it have the best tank? No. Does it have the best range? No. It determines if the fight is going to happen and also often can escape if conditions go south.

Over the last few years we've been subjected to Minmatar ships that are the best in most categories. That will change as other ships get a much needed boost. This thread will be recreated multiple times in the coming months.

TL;DR - the age of Winmatar is coming to an end. Deal with it.
Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-06-07 14:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Smabs
People keep saying the rifter can kite a merlin inside scram range.Neutrons and null hit to the edge of scram range just fine. Plus it can't kite if the merlin is rail fit or has dualwebs.

The merlin and incursus were about equal to rifters before the patch and are much stronger now. You would need to do some out of the box thinking to reliably kill (good) merlins with rifters now.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#28 - 2012-06-07 14:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
As someone who pretty exclusively flew rifters pre-patch (as does a lot of my corp), I will confirm that after a lot of testing, the merlin dominates just about every rifter fit. The merlin is an awesome frig to fly.

My merlin gets about 196 DPS with null, 270ish with void. Have any of you actually looked at the speed? I go about 1330m/s OH, and with a T2 web it moves plenty fast enough to keep in range (i've killed two hookbills, one with a TD).

Against a cookie kiting rifter with 200m/SAR the merlin's dps easily hits hard enough into second fall off (and a good pilot will spend enough time in first fall off to hit hard) to break a rifter, especially considering the terrible dps of barrage.

Cap booster rifter can't keep up with the DPS.

400m/neut doesn't have the tank or DPS, not to mention the neut won't hurt the merlin.

TD rifter is terrible.

The only fit that could hope to win is an arty rifter, but that takes some skill to fly and most new players aren't going to be going tankless arty.

I love the rifter, and wish it could put up more of a fight. The speed advantage is minimal, and most players don't fit a T2 web, and i do on a merlin, which makes up for the speed difference. The one advantage a rifter has is that active tank to take on larger ships, giving it a bit more livability...although I've had no problems taking down ships solo several classes above me in a merlin.

Also, dual rep incursus looks awesome.

EDIT: Going back and reading the thread, I am pretty confident that 80% of you have never flown either of these ships, and haven't tried the merlin post buff.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#29 - 2012-06-07 15:39:39 UTC
196 DPS with Null?

Mind posting that fit, I wasn't aware that was possible.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#30 - 2012-06-07 15:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Check my killboard.

Dual mag stab, neutrons, cheap +3 implants. don't even have perfect skills. OH of course.

EDIT: Not gyro of course

/thread
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-07 16:02:06 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
Check my killboard.

Dual gyro, neutrons, cheap +3 implants. don't even have perfect skills. OH of course.

/thread


Guessing the Gyro is a typo.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#32 - 2012-06-07 16:03:25 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:
Check my killboard.

Dual gyro, neutrons, cheap +3 implants. don't even have perfect skills. OH of course.

/thread


Guessing the Gyro is a typo.


Thanks, edited. See, i wish so much for the rifter to be awesome minmatar bleeds into my mind.
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#33 - 2012-06-07 16:39:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dare Knight
Suqq Madiq wrote:
[quote=Mira Lynne]
Just the kind of garbage response I was expecting, but had hoped to avoid.

1. You fit 200mm ACs if you want competitive DPS. You fit 150mm ACs when you acknowledge your DPS can't touch the Merlin or Incursus but you're hoping your opponent to DC or a for wild snorlax to appear.


Let me stop you right here. I haven't finished reading the thread as this kind of thing irritates me to no end.

1) If you don't want responses, don't post on the forums.
2) When people are giving you real answers, and this qualified as a real answer, don't be a smack talker. You loose all your credibility and welcome trolls on high.
3) I've personally used T2 150's in my old Rifter fits, and they were beautiful. Being in web/scram range didn't matter. I tore stuff apart. Mind you, I even armor tanked, so I didn't carry DPS mods.
4) The utility slot is excellent. No, you don't over-sacrifice anything for rockets. Look at it this way, you can fly to live, or you can fly to kill. That's what the Rifter does.

There is no "omgrawr" perfect frigate. It doesn't exist. It'll never exist. Every ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. I suggest you get use to this idea and drop the "orbit, shoot, win" mentality.

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-07 17:39:58 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
neut won't hurt the merlin

Just nitpicking:
It will Hurt the Merlin: However, It also puts you uncomfortably within its range, and once there, merlin will probably win the DPS race before you win the Neut Race. It will hurt the merlin, but it will hurt you more.
Aliaksandre wrote:
every rifter fit

Honest Question: By this, do you mean every cookie cutter rifter fit? If yes, have you tried any new, out-of-the-box fits?
Again, not trying to be a smart ass or anything, just trying to get more of an understanding.
You say you had damage hardwirings - did you happen to have falloff/speed hardwirings?
I this fit seems to lack both range and speed compared to a Rifter. Unsure how it could catch it, let alone hold it down.
Dare Knight wrote:
There is no "omgrawr" perfect frigate. It doesn't exist. It'll never exist. Every ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. I suggest you get use to this idea and drop the "orbit, shoot, win" mentality.

+1, Pretty much the summary of this thread.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Suqq Madiq
#35 - 2012-06-07 17:40:58 UTC
Dare Knight wrote:
verbal diarrhea


What a completely useless response this is. You start with "I havent actually read the thread" and go on to sperg all kinds of nonsense that has already been addressed, answered or glossed over. Nobody cares what you used to fit on your old Rifter fits. This thread isn't about your old Rifter fits. If you can't put in enough effort to read the thread, please don't bother offering any more of your tired, outdated drivel.
Suqq Madiq
#36 - 2012-06-07 17:48:20 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
As someone who pretty exclusively flew rifters pre-patch (as does a lot of my corp), I will confirm that after a lot of testing, the merlin dominates just about every rifter fit. The merlin is an awesome frig to fly.

My merlin gets about 196 DPS with null, 270ish with void. Have any of you actually looked at the speed? I go about 1330m/s OH, and with a T2 web it moves plenty fast enough to keep in range (i've killed two hookbills, one with a TD).

Against a cookie kiting rifter with 200m/SAR the merlin's dps easily hits hard enough into second fall off (and a good pilot will spend enough time in first fall off to hit hard) to break a rifter, especially considering the terrible dps of barrage.

Cap booster rifter can't keep up with the DPS.

400m/neut doesn't have the tank or DPS, not to mention the neut won't hurt the merlin.

TD rifter is terrible.

The only fit that could hope to win is an arty rifter, but that takes some skill to fly and most new players aren't going to be going tankless arty.

I love the rifter, and wish it could put up more of a fight. The speed advantage is minimal, and most players don't fit a T2 web, and i do on a merlin, which makes up for the speed difference. The one advantage a rifter has is that active tank to take on larger ships, giving it a bit more livability...although I've had no problems taking down ships solo several classes above me in a merlin.

Also, dual rep incursus looks awesome.

EDIT: Going back and reading the thread, I am pretty confident that 80% of you have never flown either of these ships, and haven't tried the merlin post buff.


This is exactly the response I was hoping for. From people who have actually flown the ships since the "re-balancing". At least I no longer feel like I'm crazy for thinking the same. I will definitely continue flying my Rifter (it's still an amazing ship in it's versatility) but in 1v1 scenarios on a fit for fit basis, the Merlin simply outclasses the Rifter and any other T1 and many T2 frigates as well. It was over-balanced, and is yet another Caldari platform that outshines it's racial counterparts by leaps and bounds.
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#37 - 2012-06-07 17:50:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Mira Lynne wrote:
Aliaksandre wrote:
neut won't hurt the merlin

Just nitpicking:
It will Hurt the Merlin: However, It also puts you uncomfortably within its range, and once there, merlin will probably win the DPS race before you win the Neut Race. It will hurt the merlin, but it will hurt you more.
Aliaksandre wrote:
every rifter fit

Honest Question: By this, do you mean every cookie cutter rifter fit? If yes, have you tried any new, out-of-the-box fits?
Again, not trying to be a smart ass or anything, just trying to get more of an understanding.
You say you had damage hardwirings - did you happen to have falloff/speed hardwirings?
I this fit seems to lack both range and speed compared to a Rifter. Unsure how it could catch it, let alone hold it down.
Dare Knight wrote:
There is no "omgrawr" perfect frigate. It doesn't exist. It'll never exist. Every ship has it's strengths and weaknesses. I suggest you get use to this idea and drop the "orbit, shoot, win" mentality.

+1, Pretty much the summary of this thread.


You are correct on the neut in that the rifter will be dead way before you could ever hope to shut off a Merlin's guns or point.

Not many consider the booster/neut or arty fit to be cookie cutter, or double rep (also dies), so if you have any other "out-of-the-box" fits, please do post them. And i don't mean to sound like a smart ass either, but you can say think out of the box all you want, but unless you provide some viable fits, or even a theory behind what fit WOULD win, that answer simply isn't enough. Roll

My statements and KMs do not include speed or falloff hardwirings.

Speed and range? It has a T2 web and around 1330m/s OH speed (with my skills, not perfect). I'm not sure how much more speed you want? I'm at work so can't check EFT, but i'm pretty sure that you, and everyone else, are dead wrong on the speed point (merlin got a base speed boost as well).

The rifter may be marginally faster, but like I said, that is negated by the merlin using a T2 web. And once again, the 196DPS does more than enough DPS at range to kill a kiting rifter.

I have kills with this fit, I have deaths with this fit. I am comfortable throwing a merlin at all T1s, destroyers (except maybe cata), most pirate frigs, jags (lol poor jags), and every above class ship. Please everyone actually know how to fit a rifter and go fly both ships before you try to speculate on what they are capable of.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-06-07 18:50:56 UTC
Aliaksandre wrote:
You are correct on the neut in that the rifter will be dead way before you could ever hope to shut off a Merlin's guns or point.

Not many consider the booster/neut or arty fit to be cookie cutter, or double rep (also dies), so if you have any other "out-of-the-box" fits, please do post them. And i don't mean to sound like a smart ass either, but you can say think out of the box all you want, but unless you provide some viable fits, or even a theory behind what fit WOULD win, that answer simply isn't enough. Roll

My statements and KMs do not include speed or falloff hardwirings.

Speed and range? It has a T2 web and around 1330m/s OH speed (with my skills, not perfect). I'm not sure how much more speed you want? I'm at work so can't check EFT, but i'm pretty sure that you, and everyone else, are dead wrong on the speed point (merlin got a base speed boost as well).

The rifter may be marginally faster, but like I said, that is negated by the merlin using a T2 web. And once again, the 196DPS does more than enough DPS at range to kill a kiting rifter.

I have kills with this fit, I have deaths with this fit. I am comfortable throwing a merlin at all T1s, destroyers (except maybe cata), most pirate frigs, jags (lol poor jags), and every above class ship. Please everyone actually know how to fit a rifter and go fly both ships before you try to speculate on what they are capable of.


Ive had my ass handed to me by a Boosted Dualrep Rifter. Escaped in 25% Structure

If the Merlin has a T2 Web and AB, then its only fair to assume that the Rifter does too.

Merlin did get a speed boost, but the rifter is still faster.

As for a fit, ive had success with:

200mm AC IIs, Barrage

AB
Web
Scram

Overdrive/Nano
TE
Something (Gyro/TE/DC/whatever floats your boat)

Rigs

Its still being fine tuned. In 4 fights against post buff merlins, i've won 2, had one escape, and had to escape once (Because it had a TE)
Probably wouldnt work too well against anything that doesnt use blasters. Havent tried it vs. an Incursus yet.
requires great reflexes and alot of manual piloting for best effect. stay just inside overloaded scram range/as close as youre comfortable going.

Is it perfect? no. Will it beat a blaster merlin? Ive had luck.
Is it better than sitting on the forums and whining? Hell yes.

Still, if you think the Rifter is ****, then propose a buff in F&ID.
regardless, i will continue to fly both Rifters and Merlins and get kills while doing so.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Aliaksandre
Screaming Hayabusa
#39 - 2012-06-07 19:14:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliaksandre
Mira Lynne wrote:

...stuff...

regardless, i will continue to fly both Rifters and Merlins and get kills while doing so.


Agreed.


The problem with that fit is that it is so extremely situational (no tank). I have a realistic ship that can take on almost anything, versus that fit that can *maybe* win a few fights against blaster boats (and only with good piloting).

You should try an arty rifter, it has a much better chance of survival. A rail incursus, tristan (did the gun slots change? don't remember), rail merlin, punisher, kestrel, etc etc will all kill that rifter. So your engagement profile is, maybe merlins, and hope they have blasters on top of that (and that you start the fight at a perfect 10km, otherwise dead)?

The point of this thread is yes, there is no one fit to rule them all, but the standard merlin is now so far above so many rifter fits it makes flying one pointless, as the merlin can do everything better. However, a shield/400m plate + neut rifter will do well against most other T1s (including incursus).

I don't know how to "fix" the rifter. Give it a low and CPU? That will return it to being a perfect kiter and tears of OP will begin. Honestly, they should have left the merlin's speed where it was so that the rifter still had its definite speed advantage.

And how much faster is the rifter? I remember looking at EFT and only seeing a marginal difference. I kept up with and killed a hookbill with a meta4 60% web, T2 AB, and a Tracking disruptor (range). I can handle a rifter.

PS. most rifter pilots don't fly with a T2 web, often opting for the T2 scram to increase kiting range.
Dare Knight
Bandwagoners
#40 - 2012-06-07 19:21:35 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Dare Knight wrote:
verbal diarrhea


What a completely useless response this is. You start with "I havent actually read the thread" and go on to sperg all kinds of nonsense that has already been addressed, answered or glossed over. Nobody cares what you used to fit on your old Rifter fits. This thread isn't about your old Rifter fits. If you can't put in enough effort to read the thread, please don't bother offering any more of your tired, outdated drivel.


...I fly all four racial frigates regularly, to this day, in solo fw plexes and in gangs. To clarify, I posted what I posted after I started page 2, as everything else was pretty much the same. After reading the rest of the posts.... I was right, they're all pretty much the same. I stopped to post what I posted in response to your attitude. A poor one, at that.

But thank you for asking.

_It's very simple, really. If you see Tengus on scan, they are ratting. If you see a shitload of Tengus, the Russians are blobbing. If you see Proteuses on scan, they will be on top of you in about a second. If you see a shitload of Proteuses, the big boys are having a goodfight. _