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Faction Warfare - why CCP NEED to fix plexing and NPCs

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Author
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-07 08:21:10 UTC
Just killed a guy plexing (guy logged off with aggro, logged back on in a pod).

He was plexing. I won't link the KM (forums rules).

But here's the fit he used from EFT

[Rifter, AFK Plexer]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Nanofiber Internal Structure I
Nanofiber Internal Structure I

Small Shield Booster II
Cap Recharger II
10MN Afterburner I

[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Capacitor Control Circuit I

When minmitar can cap plexes (medium and major were on scan) in fits like this and the char was created 2012.05.21, CCP has an issue with the NPCs being unbalanced and the LP farming being well in the favour of the Minmitar militia vs the Amarr.
Similar noises are also coming from the Gallente vs Caldari front.

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-07 08:47:06 UTC
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.
Dr Slapstick
The Imperial Fedaykin
#3 - 2012-06-07 08:50:38 UTC
Additionally, I'd like to point out that making it harder to attack once you start losing systems (occupancy wise, via station lockouts) has had the blatantly obvious (and predicted) result of 90% of the systems flipping to the Minmatar, meaning the people who are supposed to fight have no consistent income source with which to fight back. Genius idea -_-

At least even out the LP conversion ratios- as it is, you're making it harder for the underdogs, and devaluing the LP gained for the winning side as well. Both sides get screwed in alternating cycles. Either you're winning and your LP is devalued, or you're losing and it's ******** expensive LP-wise to buy things. Unless you only buy things when you're winning, then sell them when you're losing (and have the isk to wait for those things to cycle back and forth), you've got a really crappy chance of making isk to fight with.

You've made it harder to gain LP in appreciable quantities, harder to gain items when you're already losing, and therefore harder to justify PVPing and losing ships in the process. You've just shifted the PVE farmers into plexes instead of missions, and devalued the primary income source of people who actually PVP.

This was all predicted by many of the Amarrian FW corp ceos/members far before it happened, and now it has happened, and CCP still gives no flying f's.

Many of the current FW corps are here in spite of the new mechanics purely out of loyalty, and a hope that someday some semblance of balance will come to the FW mechanics.

TL/DR- new FW mechanics can suck a watermelon.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-06-07 08:51:33 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-06-07 08:52:21 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...


How many systems do they own?
How many of them are empty?
How come you are not doing the same to them?
Dr Slapstick
The Imperial Fedaykin
#6 - 2012-06-07 08:54:13 UTC
We don't want to do the same thing to them. The point was to encourage fighting, not crappy plex farming.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-06-07 08:57:13 UTC
Dr Slapstick wrote:
We don't want to do the same thing to them. The point was to encourage fighting, not crappy plex farming.



So go into a plex and wait for a bored minmatar to engage you?
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-07 08:57:41 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...


How many systems do they own?
How many of them are empty?
How come you are not doing the same to them?

If you are asking that question, you missed the point of the post.


How many systems do they own? Lots. They can take an offensive plex easier than we can
How many of them are empty? No idea - fighting on the front line
How come you are not doing the same to them? We can't AFK a major in a rifter due to the amount of incoming MISSILE damage from TARGET PAINTING NPCs...

CCP needed to balance NPCs, fix plex mechanics AND increase the amount of time needed to flip a system. None of this happened prior to Inferno so Amarr held very few systems when patch day came. In spite of fighting with one hand behind our back, we are managing to take some systems back. Credit where it is due, the small fast disposable ship fleets of Fwedit have been a big help here.

ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-06-07 09:05:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ModeratedToSilence
Har Harrison wrote:



How many systems do they own? Lots. They can take an offensive plex easier than we can - That means you can have more offensive opportunities than them

How many of them are empty? No idea - fighting on the front line When your enemy has you out numbered and out gunned you need to change tactics

How come you are not doing the same to them? We can't AFK a major in a rifter due to the amount of incoming MISSILE damage from TARGET PAINTING NPCs... That point is valid all the pesky gallente do is sensor damp




If I were in Amarr right at this very moment I would be in Aset/Turnir round that very quiet area gradually lifting the contention level.
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-07 11:37:14 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:



How many systems do they own? Lots. They can take an offensive plex easier than we can - That means you can have more offensive opportunities than them

How many of them are empty? No idea - fighting on the front line When your enemy has you out numbered and out gunned you need to change tactics

How come you are not doing the same to them? We can't AFK a major in a rifter due to the amount of incoming MISSILE damage from TARGET PAINTING NPCs... That point is valid all the pesky gallente do is sensor damp




If I were in Amarr right at this very moment I would be in Aset/Turnir round that very quiet area gradually lifting the contention level.

Thanks for the pro-tip. It doesn't change anything regarding the imbalances the Amarr face and as such they are fighting with the deck stacked against them.

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-06-07 11:42:24 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...


CCP said in some interview big alliances would get in to FW (hem), welp...

brb

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-07 11:53:07 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

Not when they warp out as soon as you come into the plex. They just log or move to another system and go again. This is the new version of the mission farming...


CCP said in some interview big alliances would get in to FW (hem), welp...

Again, not related to this topic. One side can speed tank a major plex, the other cannot!!!!

Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#13 - 2012-06-07 11:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Stensson
Har Harrison wrote:

Again, not related to this topic. One side can speed tank a major plex, the other cannot!!!!



Of course it is, if one side can speed tank a major plex the other can kill them to prevent them doing this. Go there and kill them.

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson

brb

Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-06-07 12:04:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Stensson
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Of course it is, if one side can speed tank a major plex the other can kill them to prevent them doing this. Go there and kill them.

You are either a troll or don't understand FW to make this claim. How do you expect to catch someone who is able to warp away as soon as you land on grid?

Minmitar can solo Amarr MAJOR plexes in a rifter.
Amarr require a faction cruiser/BC and/or gang to achieve the same thing.

How is that balanced?

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson

Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-06-07 13:15:43 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
Minmitar can solo Amarr MAJOR plexes in a rifter.
Amarr require a faction cruiser/BC and/or gang to achieve the same thing.

How is that balanced?


I said it before and I'll say it again - EVE is one of the worst balanced paid MMOs on the market today. There are so many imbalances in just about every facet of it that after 9 years of development I can only look at it in wide-eyed dismay.

The difference between NPC strength is one - Angels being small sig, very fast, with crazy shielding using missiles and projectiles.
The difference between the EWAR strength is another - Caldari jamming getting more ships killed than any other EWAR in the game.
The difference between weapon systems - rails still suck, drones still not viable as primary system.
The difference between blueprints - Minmatar ones require Industry I, Gallente ones require Industry V for same module.
Etc., etc., etc.
I could compile a list of things that's pages and pages long.

So it's hardly surprising that FW is nowhere near balanced as well. I don't want the game to be all the same, variety is good, but only when it has a semblance of balance to it. Otherwise it's just a mish-mash of a gory mess.
hyhn
Iynx Teledyne Armory
The Chogo Ri Commonwealth
#16 - 2012-06-07 14:45:11 UTC
Dr Slapstick wrote:
Additionally, I'd like to point out that making it harder to attack once you start losing systems (occupancy wise, via station lockouts) has had the blatantly obvious (and predicted) result of 90% of the systems flipping to the Minmatar, meaning the people who are supposed to fight have no consistent income source with which to fight back. Genius idea -_-

At least even out the LP conversion ratios- as it is, you're making it harder for the underdogs, and devaluing the LP gained for the winning side as well. Both sides get screwed in alternating cycles. .... stuff ....... more stuff .....




This guys does not get what it means to win. If they are using fail-fits then get in there and clean them out. Simple. Besides if they hold the property too long the LP will devalue itself --- works as intended .
Haulie Berry
#17 - 2012-06-07 15:08:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Plexing does need some refinement with respect to NPC power, although the bigger problem inherent in the current system is the entire WZ control scheme. It takes a team effort to upgrade and hold systems, but only a solo effort to knock them back down.

Since, even if a system is stable, its upgrade status is threatened, the payoff for plexing is essentially as follows:

If I choose to offensive plex:
-I get a large amount of LP.
-I reduce the enemy's system upgrade LP by a large amount.
-I move the system closer toward capture.

If I choose to defensive plex:
-I get ****-all for sitting around with my thumb up my ass fpr 10-20 minutes
-I do nothing for the system's upgrade status. I'm not effectively "defending" its upgrade status because a new one will open up in no time at all.
-I move the system away from capture status, unless it's already stable.

So, basically, I get nothing, and my faction gets nothing. It would be more effective for me to completely ignore the defensive plexes in systems that are not heavily contested, and then donate half my income from offensive plexing toward friendly systems to offset any upgrade damage done.

Thus, unless large numbers of people are willing to sit around mindlessly closing plexes in backwater systems for no personal gain until the end of time... and they're not... the system will naturally deteriorate toward T1 for everyone, as very few people are willing to donate enough out of pocket to keep systems ugpraded.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#18 - 2012-06-07 15:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
A few points of clarification:

Quote:
If they are using fail-fits then get in there and clean them out. Simple.


You don't understand. If they needed to bring larger ships or a group they could be engaged away from the site (at a gate) or possibly in the site itself.

However, they are taking major sites in a speed fit Rifter that cannot be caught at a gate, and certainly can't be caught in a site (your mandatory warp in point is quite a ways out of warp scramble range). He is able to freely speed off, move several systems, and ninja in other sites at will.

Amarr do not have this luxury and this aspect of the conflict is very unbalanced. Amarr don't want their sites to be easier, rather they want them all to be roughly the same difficulty (preferably not allowing capture of major sites by speed tanking for either side).


On the other hand the contention that the new system has put the Amarr in their current situation is false. The only "prediction" that came true was that the Minmatar would press their already significant advantage to capture as many of the few remaining Amarr systems as possible before the new system came live. They already had all but a handful of the Amarr systems, and you certainly can't blame the new FW system for past failure.

Since the new FW system has gone live it has actually worked fairly well (the losing side actually has more opportunity to gain LP's by capturing sites and via PVP than the side that currently has the upper hand).


Some tweaking is definately in order, but the system is sound. If the NPC balanvcing issue can be resolved things should be entirely enjoyable.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#19 - 2012-06-07 15:49:37 UTC
Caldaris are using the same kind of fits (10mn merlin, I have seen 5 different of them in 2 days in the same constellation). They all fly to a safe and logoff if something even appears on dscan. Thanks to my BATTLE BUZZARD I got one.

Gallentes are using 1-day alts in atrons, with a mwd and 2 warp cores, to do the defensive plexes.


This is a bit... boring. Straight

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-06-07 16:50:16 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Easy solution: Keep ganking them for easy kills and to earn your own LP. Eventually the risk will outweigh the reward.

hm? what does this KM worth? And what about risk? Is loosing 2-3 millions is a risk for you? Shocked

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

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