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Why do miners not love hulkageddon?
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Research Barbie
TwoToes Enterprises
#81 - 2012-06-06 14:49:34 UTC
My complaint about Dessie Gankers is simple: In High Sec they are the only ones who fly safe from ganks. The reason is simply, it takes more than one frigate to be able to put enough damage on an unfitted dessie in the time allowed by Concord. And, there is no point in simply trading one dessie for another. As a result there is no way to make a profit from killing the gankers.

So dessie pilots get to practice their trade risk free, the guaranteed loss of a ship isn't risk its an expense like mining crystals. They can fly around and feel superior to everyone as the mining ships flee when they come into a system.

Tornado and other gank boats do run a risk of being ganked because there is enough value in their ships for others to do the same things to them, as a result they do run the risk of being counter ganked.

So the Dessie ganker has become what he hates. A risk averse Hi Sec NPC alt mostly, who flies around in a ship unsuited for combat because he is safe from being aggressed, and attacks ships with basically the same aggressive capacity as a rock, mining miners. While screaming at the top of his lungs how elite he is and how everyone needs to play the game like him and how we should all thank him for teaching us the realities of Eve. Sheesh get over yourself already.

This is my first post with this alt or any other alt on any of my accounts in 3 years. As her name implies she is not a pvp alt so don't bother looking up her record. I have never lost a mining ship during any Hulkageddon. When this one was announced I starting training up some alts so I could attack the dessie gankers until I figured out that there was no way to defeat a dessie in the time frame available with a ship that economically justified the attack.
Eyhoma
White-Noise
#82 - 2012-06-06 16:14:50 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Ban Bindy wrote:
The point of high sec mining is that it does not have to require total attention.

Don't play the game AFK. The game is not designed with this kind of play style in mind and you should never consider your ship and character safe and just get up and walk away from your computer.


Wow, you should tell that to a guy I know who camps a certain system 23/7 and occasionally lights a cynosural field for his stealth bombing buddies. He would be very surprised to know he should not get up and walk away from his computer and consider his ship safe.

If fact I think he be shocked at the news. Or laugh in your face. More the latter really.
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#83 - 2012-06-06 16:21:08 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Most, if not all, of MMOs have a starting area, for eve that is "hi-sec". Unfortunately "Hi-Sec" mutated into something different than what was likely intended and it causes issues between people who live in hi sec, and people who live in low and 0.0 space.

Usually people leave the starting area after a few days, but the mutation of hi sec and the politics of low and 0.0 space doesn't effectively give the players a place to move on to.

So you effectively get people who believe hi-sec shouldn't be so easily infested with criminals, while others believe in the mutated hi sec of which criminals can easily run free.



No flame here, but hisec is safer now than ever before. The mechanics have been slowly gearing hisec to be safer and safer for years. It was never intended to be 'safe' merely safer than lowsec and nullsec.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#84 - 2012-06-06 16:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Fyretracker
Velicitia wrote:


2. lowsec is viewed to be crap.

This view will never change as long as the current sec status system is in operation. Low sec only benefits pirates and gankers because if some gung ho PVPers decided to go anti-pirate they also lose sec status for removing the threat. So in the current system even if you could convince a mining op to go into low sec their defenders will get criminal flagged unless they await the other guy to fire first.

So people mine mostly in High Sec where in theory there is some minor CONCORD protection, or they go into Null where their defenders can shoot first.(NBSI and all that)


In simple terms, Low Sec will not ever become popular unless Defense does not have to always remain at the disadvantage in doing their job.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-06-06 18:25:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


2. lowsec is viewed to be crap.

This view will never change as long as the current sec status system is in operation. Low sec only benefits pirates and gankers because if some gung ho PVPers decided to go anti-pirate they also lose sec status for removing the threat. So in the current system even if you could convince a mining op to go into low sec their defenders will get criminal flagged unless they await the other guy to fire first.

So people mine mostly in High Sec where in theory there is some minor CONCORD protection, or they go into Null where their defenders can shoot first.(NBSI and all that)


In simple terms, Low Sec will not ever become popular unless Defense does not have to always remain at the disadvantage in doing their job.


Low Sec has always been thought of as no mans land - a buffer between null sec and empire.. and that's the way null seccers like it - nothing you do short of turning eve earning power on it's head will ever change that. .. and even then you would not be luring as many high seccer into low sec as large null sec alliances which would then try to completely control low sec.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#86 - 2012-06-06 19:25:47 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
It seems to me (if I were a miner) I would be happy as hell seeing my competition getting blown up. It's easy to avoid getting ganked by simply moving to some backwater system, or simply paying attention. Using cheaper mining ships with a higher risk vs reward ratio would also ensure I profit from the situation at large. Prices go up, and the miners make more money right?

So why the sh|t-storm? Or is it that only the incompetent miners are here complaining to everyone?

Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they have to watch dscan, or align at the right time? Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they lost their shiny ship? (don't be pedantic here, I'm not talking about unfortunate events like lag)

So what makes you special? The moment any of us undock, you are checking the yes box to pvp. IMO highsec is far too uniform and safe as it is.


Seeing Covert Kitty posting Shocked
Velicitia
XS Tech
#87 - 2012-06-06 19:35:52 UTC
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


2. lowsec is viewed to be crap.

This view will never change as long as the current sec status system is in operation. Low sec only benefits pirates and gankers because if some gung ho PVPers decided to go anti-pirate they also lose sec status for removing the threat. So in the current system even if you could convince a mining op to go into low sec their defenders will get criminal flagged unless they await the other guy to fire first.

So people mine mostly in High Sec where in theory there is some minor CONCORD protection, or they go into Null where their defenders can shoot first.(NBSI and all that)


In simple terms, Low Sec will not ever become popular unless Defense does not have to always remain at the disadvantage in doing their job.



... I like lowsec...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-06-06 20:57:42 UTC
Disruptive events such as Permageddon create opportunities for profit that can be exploited by the intelligent, the daring, and the creative.

Highsec miners, being none of these things, are unable to take advantage.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Nostradamouse Riraille
S.M.U.G.G.L.E.
#89 - 2012-06-06 21:23:31 UTC
Yup, I'll have to agree, for any intelligent miner, those are good times indeed...
Hrothgar Nilsson
#90 - 2012-06-06 21:57:58 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
.... while those copy pasting famous WW2 ideology apologetic texts could carry on and repeat the "concepts" ad nauseam.
Now, I might sound picky, but considering I had grandfathers who got almost killed by the militias following those ideologies I felt personally affected.

Did you seriously just play the holocaust card for a video game? :/

I think she (he?) is Italian.

BTW V V, my grandpa was in Italy during the war too. On the other side, granted.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#91 - 2012-06-06 22:08:10 UTC
Search not working for you, OP?
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#92 - 2012-06-07 16:36:30 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Disruptive events such as Permageddon create opportunities for profit that can be exploited by the intelligent, the daring, and the creative.

Highsec miners, being none of these things, are unable to take advantage.


Lets ask Chribba about that statement shall we?
ian papabear
No Regard.
#93 - 2012-06-07 16:57:19 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
It seems to me (if I were a miner) I would be happy as hell seeing my competition getting blown up. It's easy to avoid getting ganked by simply moving to some backwater system, or simply paying attention. Using cheaper mining ships with a higher risk vs reward ratio would also ensure I profit from the situation at large. Prices go up, and the miners make more money right?

So why the sh|t-storm? Or is it that only the incompetent miners are here complaining to everyone?

Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they have to watch dscan, or align at the right time? Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they lost their shiny ship? (don't be pedantic here, I'm not talking about unfortunate events like lag)

So what makes you special? The moment any of us undock, you are checking the yes box to pvp. IMO highsec is far too uniform and safe as it is.


eh rookie ship suicide gank your own hulk have concord sit in the belt with you for a few hours , youre safe

.
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-06-07 17:01:54 UTC
ian papabear wrote:


eh rookie ship suicide gank your own hulk have concord sit in the belt with you for a few hours , youre safe


Didn't someone somewhere say that pulling concord is an exploit?
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#95 - 2012-06-07 18:11:03 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
People like to confuse the idea of high security systems to 0.0 systems. Somehow they moronically get it into their heads that all areas of the game need to be the same security rating. They think that because someone has access to veldspar that it is on par with 0.0 ores, therefore they should assume the same level of risk. That is absolutely stupid.


Your absolutely correct, for example, highsec miners make an improper risk/reward decision when they use a 200mil ship for an income of like 5-10mil/hr. If your in nullsec, you can apparently make more like 90-100mil /hr. That ratio is completely, utterly, out of line, and yes you would be "absolutely stupid" to make that choice.

It's like using an officer fit nightmare run missions. Sure, people do it, but people pay for it pretty regularly as well. If your goal is to make isk, fly a ship that best matches your expected income.

That's the whole point


Agreed.

A few months ago, I attracted the attention of mission gankers. This isn't usually a problem with me ...and these mission gankers tried to nab me several times over 2 weeks and they...didn't....lack imagination.

I had to sit back and analyze why I was targeted. Did my big mouth irritate someone? Always a possibility :). However, I looked at my missioning ship and realized that I had had 'module creep' and that my ship was much more shiney than it used to be. I didn't do this concsiously but it happened.

Therefore, I re-adjusted my fit back to more sanity...and haven't had much trouble since.

Proper equipment (risk) for the appropriate reward. If you can't make Isk without huge risk then it isn't an activity one should be doing.
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#96 - 2012-06-07 18:11:25 UTC
Nuela wrote:
Covert Kitty wrote:
[quote=AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo]People like to confuse the idea of high security systems to 0.0 systems. Somehow they moronically get it into their heads that all areas of the game need to be the same security rating. They think that because someone has access to veldspar that it is on par with 0.0 ores, therefore they should assume the same level of risk. That is absolutely stupid.


Your absolutely correct, for example, highsec miners make an improper risk/reward decision when they use a 200mil ship for an income of like 5-10mil/hr. If your in nullsec, you can apparently make more like 90-100mil /hr. That ratio is completely, utterly, out of line, and yes you would be "absolutely stupid" to make that choice.

It's like using an officer fit nightmare run missions. Sure, people do it, but people pay for it pretty regularly as well. If your goal is to make isk, fly a ship that best matches your expected income.

That's the whole point


Agreed.

A few months ago, I attracted the attention of mission gankers. This isn't usually a problem with me ...and these mission gankers tried to nab me several times over 2 weeks and they...didn't....lack imagination.

I had to sit back and analyze why I was targeted. Did my big mouth irritate someone? Always a possibility :). However, I looked at my missioning ship and realized that I had had 'module creep' and that my ship was much more shiney than it used to be. I didn't do this concsiously but it happened.

Therefore, I re-adjusted my fit back to more sanity...and haven't had much trouble since.

Proper equipment (risk) for the appropriate reward. If you can't make Isk without undo risk then it isn't an activity one should be doing.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-06-07 19:01:52 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
point of view

Because there is more than one person playing eve....

Roll

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
WolfeReign
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-06-07 19:08:27 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
It seems to me (if I were a miner) I would be happy as hell seeing my competition getting blown up. It's easy to avoid getting ganked by simply moving to some backwater system, or simply paying attention. Using cheaper mining ships with a higher risk vs reward ratio would also ensure I profit from the situation at large. Prices go up, and the miners make more money right?

So why the sh|t-storm? Or is it that only the incompetent miners are here complaining to everyone?

Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they have to watch dscan, or align at the right time? Do you see PvP'ers complaining that they lost their shiny ship? (don't be pedantic here, I'm not talking about unfortunate events like lag)

So what makes you special? The moment any of us undock, you are checking the yes box to pvp. IMO highsec is far too uniform and safe as it is.



To me Hulkageddon is a time of opportunity because all of the ore I mine sells for more :) my alt hasn't lost a hulk yet to hulkageddon Bear
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#99 - 2012-06-07 20:17:37 UTC
Research Barbie wrote:
..... So the Dessie ganker has become what he hates. A risk averse Hi Sec NPC alt mostly, who flies around in a ship unsuited for combat because he is safe from being aggressed, and attacks ships with basically the same aggressive capacity as a rock, mining miners.

..... Hulkageddon. When this one was announced I starting training up some alts so I could attack the dessie gankers until I figured out that there was no way to defeat a dessie in the time frame available with a ship that economically justified the attack.


I'll admit I havn't looked into this carefully but, I find it hard to believe that you can't tank a hulk against a destroyers suicide gank attempt. Or is it that they do it with several at once?

------------- Below here is not directed at the above quote ----------------

Regardless, one really shouldn't be flying a hulk to mine in highsec if your not willing to pay attention to local, short range dscan, and not be afk, the risk/reward ratio is simply not justifiable. Lets say your hulk is worth 250 mil, and your pulling in 23 mil /hr mining in highsec (I'm just guessing at these numbers, so forgive me if I'm somewhat off, focus on my core point)

250 / 23 = 10 hrs to pay for your hulk should you be destroyed

say a covetor costs you about 35? Perhaps your profitability drops a little? I was told they are about 80% as effective as a hulk.

35 / 19 = 1.8 hrs to pay off the ship

So, if your prone to getting ganked, or you plan on not paying attention / going afk etc. Match your risk, with your expected rewards such that you WILL be making a consistent profit. Remember the goal is to make isk, not loose it. Note here that I'm not saying don't go afk, we all take measured risks regularly in this game. I'm saying that if you do decide to take on extra risk, ensure you are aware of it, and manage that risk so you don't get bit harder than you want. When you undock, assume your going to die sooner or later.