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The Plight of the Rifter
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Suqq Madiq
#1 - 2012-06-06 19:10:37 UTC
Maybe I'm missing something so somebody please correct me where I'm wrong, but it seems to me that in the wake of the recent T1 frig "re-balance", the once mighty Rifter has been relegated to 3rd or 4th string status well behind the Merlin and Incursus, and barely on par with the Punisher until you consider the Punisher's superior tank and range.

Without a doubt the Rifter enjoyed a very long stretch as the most widely used T1 frigate and was accepted as the standard by which other T1 frigs were measured, but now with less DPS and less tank than the other 3, is there any reason for frigate pilots who once loved their Rifters not to immediately cross-train into other races?
Kalli Brixzat
#2 - 2012-06-06 19:19:08 UTC
The Rifter is fine. The difference in DPS is minor considering we're dealing with very small numbers here. And it's still fast as hell.

I've always preferred Merlins to Rifters as throw away T1 brawler Frigates. This changes nothing for me...or anyone else.
Suqq Madiq
#3 - 2012-06-06 19:27:09 UTC
The Merlin does a 1/3 more DPS with 1/3 more tank than the Rifter. That is a significant difference.

Incursus is on par with Rifter in DPS, but with the benefit of a much more substantial tank and the ability to dictate range. Both the Merlin and Incursus are easily able to dictate range in a 1v1 with a Rifter because they can both easily fit a Web, in addition to their Scram and AB and, in the case of the Merlin, it's MSE. I'll leave the Punisher aside since it has it's own problems with only 2 midslots, but it's pretty obvious the Rifter is now playing second or third fiddle to the Incursus and Merlin.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-06-06 19:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mira Lynne
The rifter is by No means Trash now. Just because a Merlin will beat the unholy Crap out of your cookie cutter fit doesnt mean the ship is outdated, it means your cookie cutter fit is outdated.

Yes, theres a very good reason to remain in your Rifters. The Merlin still has VERY significant Weaknesses that a skilled rifter Pilot can Exploit - Neither the Rifter nor the Merlin are Top Dog.

Having flown the Merlin, before and after buff, i'll say this: I'm saddened that its more idiot friendly - hopefully that means that theres more idiots piloting it that can't play to its strengths and try to overcome its weaknesses.


Edit: Posted While I was Writing
Suqq Madiq wrote:
The Merlin does a 1/3 more DPS with 1/3 more tank than the Rifter. That is a significant difference.

Incursus is on par with Rifter in DPS, but with the benefit of a much more substantial tank and the ability to dictate range. Both the Merlin and Incursus are easily able to dictate range in a 1v1 with a Rifter because they can both easily fit a Web, in addition to their Scram and AB and, in the case of the Merlin, it's MSE. I'll leave the Punisher aside since it has it's own problems with only 2 midslots, but it's pretty obvious the Rifter is now playing second or third fiddle to the Incursus and Merlin.


Yes, it does 1/3 more DPS and has 1/3 more tank, but its also about 1/3 slower and only projects damage 1/3 as far.
As to Range Control: Fit a Web? Rifter Can Easily fit AB+Web+Scram. It does, you know, have 3 Mids. You just need to not fit a Shield Extender.

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Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-06-06 19:28:02 UTC
Strictly speaking, these changes did more to bring other ships in line with the Rifter than they did for making the Rifter in any way bad. Fixing the mixed slots disease on the Merlin is a welcome change for new players (though I do wish it had a spare slot left for a salvager). Punishers always felt ilke they had the worst end of the stick before, of the 4 types of decent newbie tackler (Incursus being the choice for the 4th racial pick). Now, there are compelling arguments to be made for fitting out all of these ships, where before the Rifter really had a strong edge over everything else with the exemption of the guy who made the best use of that one Warrior II that he possibly could.

At the end of the day, the Rifter's speed advantage and great slot layout let it be fit a range of ways, many of which are still valid. I'm glad that the other frigates now have the opportunity to kill poorly fit battleships as well.
Mal Ishos
Steecey's Industries
#6 - 2012-06-06 19:29:43 UTC
I must concur with the hooded gentleman above me. 1/3 more DPS and tank is significant and not minor. This may change nothing for the troll, but it certainly changes things for those of us who once specialized in Minmatar combat.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#7 - 2012-06-06 19:31:55 UTC
Selectable damage, capless weapons, speed. High slot for a small neut. Poor rifter.
Suqq Madiq
#8 - 2012-06-06 19:36:46 UTC
The high slot you mention is irrelevant for the Rifter as it cannot use it if it wants to fit a decent tank in addition to 200mm ACs. Both the Punisher and Rifter have now useless utility high slots, whereas the Incursus and Merlin can easily utilize every one of their slots for DPS, Tank or Tackle. And, despite your mention of "selectable damage" I see little in the way of evidence to suggest a Rifter pilot can merely switch damage on the fly and not suffer a high penalty to do so. I will grant the speed advantage the Rifter has, but in what way is that useful, except in gaining initial tackle, when your opponent will most certainly have a web while you most certainly will not?
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-06-06 19:45:21 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
The high slot you mention is irrelevant for the Rifter as it cannot use it if it wants to fit a decent tank in addition to 200mm ACs(1). Both the Punisher and Rifter have now useless utility high slots(2), whereas the Incursus and Merlin can easily utilize every one of their slots for DPS, Tank or Tackle(3). And, despite your mention of "selectable damage" I see little in the way of evidence to suggest a Rifter pilot can merely switch damage on the fly and not suffer a high penalty to do so. I will grant the speed advantage the Rifter has, but in what way is that useful, except in gaining initial tackle, when your opponent will most certainly have a web while you most certainly will not?(4)


Ok... Where to begin?
1: Nobody Said you NEED to fit 200mm ACs. I hear theres these things called 150mm ACs that use less Powergrid.
2: Uh-huh. Its totally Useless. Hey, if you dont want that Utility High, Im sure my merlin would love it! (Seriously)
3: Let me get this Straight - Youre saying that 3 Highs and 3 Turrets is better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets? Neuts and Nos are Bad now? Also, theres these things called Rocket Launchers. They Do damage.
4: So... Fit a Web? Rifter has 3 Mids you know. Thats enough for Web Scram Propmod

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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#10 - 2012-06-06 19:51:19 UTC
The Rifter is still the fastest among the t1 frigates with by far the greatest range versatility. It can kite a Merlin and it can break the tracking of a Punisher.

It is no longer "orbit, turn on your guns and win", but it's far from bad.
Suqq Madiq
#11 - 2012-06-06 19:53:47 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:

Ok... Where to begin?
1: Nobody Said you NEED to fit 200mm ACs. I hear theres these things called 150mm ACs that use less Powergrid.
2: Uh-huh. Its totally Useless. Hey, if you dont want that Utility High, Im sure my merlin would love it! (Seriously)
3: Let me get this Straight - Youre saying that 3 Highs and 3 Turrets is better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets? Neuts and Nos are Bad now? Also, theres these things called Rocket Launchers. They Do damage.
4: So... Fit a Web? Rifter has 3 Mids you know. Thats enough for Web Scram Propmod


Just the kind of garbage response I was expecting, but had hoped to avoid.

1. You fit 200mm ACs if you want competitive DPS. You fit 150mm ACs when you acknowledge your DPS can't touch the Merlin or Incursus but you're hoping your opponent to DC or a for wild snorlax to appear.
2. That utility high-slot on your Merlin would be offline unless you planned to lose DPS, Tackle, Tank or Speed in order to online it. So, yes, useless.
3. 3 Highs and 3 Turrets IS better than 4 Highs and 3 Turrets when you consider what the Rifter has to sacrifice in order to have that spare highslot. Ie, DPS, Tank, Speed, or a useful Mid or Low slot.
4. Fit a web to a Rifter and you lose, a) Prop mod, b) Tackle, c) Tank or d) Your speed advantage. In either case you are now at an even greater disadvantage than you were before.

Please use your brain before posting any more of your drivel, forcing me to your level just to reply. I feel so dirty now.
Grog Drinker
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-06-06 19:54:27 UTC
The rifter is insanely versatile.

Buffer Armor fit: sure
Buffer Shield: sure
active armor: sure
dual rep: yup
long range kitey: yup
short range brawl: yup
nuet: oh yes
ewar: yup

There are so many good ways to fit a rifter. It can be fit to counter pretty much any other frigate. If you are hitting approach, f1, orbit you are doing it wrong. Rifters take some finesse and pilot skill.

If your looking for rifter fits maybe scan through the losses on this killboard.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#13 - 2012-06-06 19:54:56 UTC
The difference is in the piloting, not in the ship. Now it isn't top-dog I might consider flying it.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Suqq Madiq
#14 - 2012-06-06 19:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Suqq Madiq
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The Rifter is still the fastest among the t1 frigates with by far the greatest range versatility. It can kite a Merlin and it can break the tracking of a Punisher.

It is no longer "orbit, turn on your guns and win", but it's far from bad.


How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.

Edit to clarify: I really am not attempting to troll or be trolled here, though I do acknowledge that as an EVE Online forum, a certain degree of trolling is inevitable, but I am fully open to suggestions and advice as to how the Rifter can compete against 99% of the Merlins and Incursus who will certainly be sporting the "cookie cutter" fit that does mean and nasty things to Rifters.
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#15 - 2012-06-06 20:15:35 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:

How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.


Agreed. If only these useless Minmatar ships had a long range weapons system that consumed no cap. DAMN YOU LOSEMATAR!
Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-06-06 20:27:15 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The Rifter is still the fastest among the t1 frigates with by far the greatest range versatility. It can kite a Merlin and it can break the tracking of a Punisher.

It is no longer "orbit, turn on your guns and win", but it's far from bad.


How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.

Edit to clarify: I really am not attempting to troll or be trolled here, though I do acknowledge that as an EVE Online forum, a certain degree of trolling is inevitable, but I am fully open to suggestions and advice as to how the Rifter can compete against 99% of the Merlins and Incursus who will certainly be sporting the "cookie cutter" fit that does mean and nasty things to Rifters.


Just what rifter fit do you have in mind when you are coming up with these comparisons? What merlin/incursus fits are you trying to compare it to? How do you think the fight will go down?
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#17 - 2012-06-06 20:35:17 UTC
I like the engineer fit over the recon fit.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-06-06 20:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyle Myr
Wenron wrote:

-snip-
Just what rifter fit do you have in mind when you are coming up with these comparisons? What merlin/incursus fits are you trying to compare it to? How do you think the fight will go down?



This, right here, hits the nature of what makes this such an interesting discussion. (also re: the 4th highslot, salvagers are great).

If you're willing to shell out 10m, you can fit a very nasty tank on a rifter, along with a rack of t2 guns, and anything dumb enough to get caught close to you is facing a surprise. Or you can fit them cheaply and just fly 20 of the things for that price. Or that 10m Rifter is bait for something else.

T1 frigates are inexpensive and versatile. Testing this in EVE with engagements leads to results that wouldn't necessarily be predicted by theory. One of my favorite memories was killing a dramiel with with other newbie rifters while onlookers took bets, killing time waiting for hostiles to try to break out their trapped ships again.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#19 - 2012-06-06 20:41:00 UTC
Suqq Madiq wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
The Rifter is still the fastest among the t1 frigates with by far the greatest range versatility. It can kite a Merlin and it can break the tracking of a Punisher.

It is no longer "orbit, turn on your guns and win", but it's far from bad.


How exactly, and I'm being 100% serious here, do you kite a Merlin outside of (I'm assuming) web and scram range, when your guns with Barrage only reach out to just over 10k, and even then you are well into the last bit of your falloff which would make your damage quite awful and straying for even a moment into Web range means you're toast.

Edit to clarify: I really am not attempting to troll or be trolled here, though I do acknowledge that as an EVE Online forum, a certain degree of trolling is inevitable, but I am fully open to suggestions and advice as to how the Rifter can compete against 99% of the Merlins and Incursus who will certainly be sporting the "cookie cutter" fit that does mean and nasty things to Rifters.


Well let's see... the base speed of a rifter is faster than a merlin, so assuming that both ships have webs the rifter can still dictate range. Keep in mind that the effective range of blasters with short range ammo will be around 2-3km while the effective range of a ACs with short range ammo is about 5km if not more if you fit for extended falloff.

Personally, I use 150mm ACs and forego the web for other modules that I find more effective for extended fights.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-06-06 21:12:50 UTC
Rifter is no longer the only choise if you dont want to play with a handicap ... This must be corrected at once !

Winmatar down ... we have a winmatar down ! God help us all !
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