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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

First post
Author
CCP Paradox
#261 - 2012-06-06 11:44:31 UTC
I'd just like to say, seeing a full post completely in caps lock, makes me ignore it entirely. If you want to be taken seriously, I would stop with the failed experiment.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician

Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#262 - 2012-06-06 12:27:04 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
I'd just like to say, seeing a full post completely in caps lock, makes me ignore it entirely. If you want to be taken seriously, I would stop with the failed experiment.


But but CCP Paradox, didn't you know? Caps Lock is the cruise control for cool! :O

On a more serious note, I believe 19% is just fine, would I like it higher? Of course, because who doesn't like to be OP when it comes to damage? I have to say, I've been waiting for a mod like this for a very long time....

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP

Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2012-06-06 23:29:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Tank - Maybe it's just hard to make up a coherent answer when the question you made up was biased. You never get a real answer if you try to manipulate people into a specific answer...
It's called "reductio ad absurdum". And yes, I know it's hard to come up with a coherent answer when you don't know how to formulate a valid argument.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#264 - 2012-06-07 00:14:37 UTC
Tank... I guess it's hard to communicate internationally on a high level for us "foreigners"...
But if you feel big about it go ahead :-)

I'd be more focused to see what CCP will do about ships like the Ishtar suddenly capable of pulling way more dps than any other HAC? I agree with the caps dude 19% seems weird. 20% or 22% doesn't matter as much as the drone ships having a 10% drone bonus giving the game a few balance spikes...

Pinky
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2012-06-07 03:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I'd be more focused to see what CCP will do about ships like the Ishtar suddenly capable of pulling way more dps than any other HAC?
Good luck getting your ultra slow heavies to actually apply that DPS. Also, false:
Quote:
[Deimos, U NO CAN OUTDPS AN ISHTAR you say?]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
[etc. low slot]
[etc. low slot]
[etc. low slot]

[etc. med slot]
[etc. med slot]
[etc. med slot]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
[etc. high slot]

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
760 DPS without heat, 874 with, as opposed to 733 on an Ishtar using Ogre II's fitted with 3 DDA's. Add on another 158.4 DPS with a flight of Hammerhead II's for a grand total of 918 DPS/1032 overheated. You could also replace the rigs with a Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II (which only runs for 12 mil in Jita currently) for a bit more DPS on top of that, plus you have the option of a Deadeye implant for even more DPS.

Quote:
the drone ships having a 10% drone bonus giving the game a few balance spikes...
You mean like the Winmatar ships with 5% bonuses to damage and RoF? Also keep in mind there is no overheating of drones, there are no drone damage implants, and that drones can and do go pop, especially heavies.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#266 - 2012-06-07 09:43:27 UTC
Even though I perhaps should have written most instead of any the Ishtar can still put out more dps...
This does 934 dps (975 dps overheated), however has plenty cpu available for 1-2 MagStabs and as you rigs and implants can upgrade it even further and even beat your overheated numbers.
Yes, the heavy drones are not the fastest or best tracking but application of dps doesn't seem worse than deimos - just different... Ishtar is a nasty support boat like this capable of out dps'ing some battleships even...

Btw if you want to nidpick instead of debate why don't you just tell me how you really feel?

[Ishtar, You can haz satisfaction?]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Ogre II x5
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-06-07 16:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
[Ishtar, You can haz satisfaction?]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Ogre II x5
Ok, now try filling the rest of the slots with the slim amount of CPU you have left after fitting guns on an Ishtar (unpractical shitfits don't count). Since you are using blasters and heavy drones a prop mod is required, preferably MWD. (Before you ask, 2xEANM II, 1xDCU II, 1xExperimental 10MN MWD I, 1xFleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I, 1xFaint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I, 1xMedium Unstable Power Fluctuator I on the Deimos fit, if it runs out of PG replace the rigs with Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II and Medium Trimark Armor Pump I.)
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#268 - 2012-06-07 19:38:07 UTC
Tankn00blicus wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
[Ishtar, You can haz satisfaction?]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
[empty low slot]
[empty low slot]

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Ogre II x5
Ok, now try filling the rest of the slots with the slim amount of CPU you have left after fitting guns on an Ishtar (unpractical shitfits don't count). Since you are using blasters and heavy drones a prop mod is required, preferably MWD. (Before you ask, 2xEANM II, 1xDCU II, 1xExperimental 10MN MWD I, 1xFleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I, 1xFaint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I, 1xMedium Unstable Power Fluctuator I on the Deimos fit, if it runs out of PG replace the rigs with Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II and Medium Trimark Armor Pump I.)


Seconded, there is no realistic fit using 1000dps ishtars with ogres.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#269 - 2012-06-07 19:54:53 UTC
Perhaps not, however it is close and no worse than the same Deimos you guys want to fly:

992 dps + overheat and implants. It has drawbacks and limited target selection but the same can be said about your Deimos. Give it up - Maybe the Ishtar doesn't beat ALL other HACs but it's pretty close... This setup goes well as a support ship doing damage from range and going in for the kill or getting under the guns on certain battleships

[Ishtar, 1k dps Ishtar]
Internal Force Field Array I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
[empty high slot]
[empty high slot]

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Ogre II x5
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#270 - 2012-06-07 20:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Give it up - Maybe the Ishtar doesn't beat ALL other HACs but it's pretty close...
What? I'm not giving up anything, you did; i.e. so much for this statement:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I'd be more focused to see what CCP will do about ships like the Ishtar suddenly capable of pulling way more dps than any other HAC?
If an Ishtar can be fit to have approximately the same DPS and tank as a Deimos, that means it's balanced with the Deimos; and Gallente has always been the up-close raw DPS power race, so of course their HACs do more DPS compared to those of the other races, but they have other strengths instead (or are at least supposed to in any case). The Deimos itself has a balance issue in that the Talos completely steps all over its toes, doing pretty much exactly the same thing as it does but better and cheaper to boot, but that's a whole other issue.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#271 - 2012-06-07 21:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
It's a problem with the Ishtar because it can deal out more dps than most HACs and it can do it while at range... Ishtars are pretty evasive. And I don't give up, I just think it's pretty pedantric of you to keep discussion going on such a childish level. Good luck with your further protests on the drone module

Pinky
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#272 - 2012-06-07 22:31:32 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
It's a problem with the Ishtar because it can deal out more dps than most HACs and it can do it while at range... Ishtars are pretty evasive.
You're going to have to get in close before deploying the heavies if you want them to do much of anything, close enough to be in point/web range, and if it's a decently fast target you have to keep them webbed and/or scrammed or else the drones will be stuck in a cycle of burning towards the target, stopping to hit, target burns away immediately after, drones burn towards it again, and so on, and end up only applying a fraction of their DPS on average. If you're using blasters that's another thing keeping you in close range.
Quote:
And I don't give up, I just think it's pretty pedantric of you to keep discussion going on such a childish level. Good luck with your further protests on the drone module
So any time someone makes a counterargument against your claims it's "childish" and "nitpicking"? That's pretty childish yourself.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#273 - 2012-06-08 09:20:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
Your deimos has to go in close as well and doesn't seem too solid either. At least the Ishtar can be a fleet support from range where the deimos will be useless. Versatility 4tw...

Try to get out of your tunnel vision. I never claimed the Ishtar was better at everything, only that it could out dps any/most of the other ships in its class. Ishtar was great solo before the nano nerf, but it has always been a super support ship for small fleets and now it became almost 50% better in a shield fit. As with any ship it's important to have a proper target selection and since deimos and ishtar has different roles they will never be directly compareable, however the Ishtar has more uses than the Deimos...

The debate from me was only to show that with these new damage modules certain ships have received a massive boost even with only 19% bonus on the module... You guys seem to lose the big picture trying to pull the debate into details with little relevans just to prove me wrong. You already pointed out I didn't word myself with surgeon precission and described how heavy drones isn't the best weapon system in EVE, but you still haven't commented on the things that really matter

  • Ishtar DPS boosted almost 55% DPS w/ 3 mods in a shield/kite configuration (475 -> 733 DPS with drones only)
  • Ishtar (and Deimos) can out dps the other HACs with a huge margin
  • But the Ishtar can do it from 60km when working with a tackler
  • Drones might not be perfect but people cannot use ecm to negate Ishtar DPS
  • Ishtar can switch to other drones for other types of targets (With a loss of DPS)


Pinky
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#274 - 2012-06-08 11:35:18 UTC
This thread contains WAY too much eft warrioring....

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#275 - 2012-06-08 15:38:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Try to get out of your tunnel vision. I never claimed the Ishtar was better at everything
I didn't claim you did either, but nice strawman.

Quote:
Ishtar DPS boosted almost 55% DPS w/ 3 mods in a shield/kite configuration (475 -> 733 DPS with drones only)
A Zealot, for example, gets a 65% DPS boost with 3 Heat Sink II's (387 -> 639), and?
Quote:
Ishtar (and Deimos) can out dps the other HACs with a huge margin
Gallente racial strength is raw DPS, as I stated before.
Quote:
But the Ishtar can do it from 60km when working with a tackler
Drones might not be perfect but people cannot use ecm to negate Ishtar DPS
Ogre II's have a MWD speed of 1.05 km/s, so it will take about a minute for them to traverse that 60km distance, plenty of time for at least a couple to get popped. That can be done via guns, other drones, or smartbombs which counter drones completely. That can be better than ECM in a way, since ECM doesn't destroy your guns and permanently reduce your DPS.
Quote:
Ishtar can switch to other drones for other types of targets (With a loss of DPS)
Hammerhead II's with 3 DDAs on an Ishtar do 365 DPS; going back to the Zealot, that's less DPS than it can do with no Heat Sinks fitted, so that's a pretty hefty loss of DPS. Guns can switch ammo to work from different ranges and/or deal different damage types at a cost in DPS as well, remember.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#276 - 2012-06-08 16:10:21 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
This thread contains WAY too much eft warrioring....



This.

The reason deimos/Ishtars are never flown in PVP but are awesome on EFT, applicable DPS.

I've tried different setups, in game and out, and while the 1K dps Ishtar SOUNDS like it works, it works about as well as blaster Deimos' do in PVP. It is simply far harder to keep and maintain that 1000 dps than it is to apply 500dps from a Hurricane or vagabond.

Meanwhile, you have to use two fitting mods, to even fit a tank, and the tank is paltry for a shield buffer fit. Good luck keeping that on the field. Combine that with the larger sig res, and the silly fast time it takes to destroy ogres, and you effectively have a 140M isk useless paper boat that has good paper numbers but nothing else.

In large fleet battles, in sufficient numbers, I can see a group of ishtars rigged for straight dps and ogre IIs being interesting to mess with, but for small gang, or solo work, the ship is a joke, as is most every other Gallente ship.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#277 - 2012-06-10 22:57:27 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
This thread contains WAY too much eft warrioring....



This.

The reason deimos/Ishtars are never flown in PVP but are awesome on EFT, applicable DPS.

I've tried different setups, in game and out, and while the 1K dps Ishtar SOUNDS like it works, it works about as well as blaster Deimos' do in PVP. It is simply far harder to keep and maintain that 1000 dps than it is to apply 500dps from a Hurricane or vagabond.

Meanwhile, you have to use two fitting mods, to even fit a tank, and the tank is paltry for a shield buffer fit. Good luck keeping that on the field. Combine that with the larger sig res, and the silly fast time it takes to destroy ogres, and you effectively have a 140M isk useless paper boat that has good paper numbers but nothing else.

In large fleet battles, in sufficient numbers, I can see a group of ishtars rigged for straight dps and ogre IIs being interesting to mess with, but for small gang, or solo work, the ship is a joke, as is most every other Gallente ship.



The ishtar is never flown in pvp?

Are you bloody insane? The ishtar is one of the absolute best HAC's for solo pvp..

Sorry i don't think its OP now with the new mods but its not a little used ship..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Shpenat
General Defense Union
Transgress
#278 - 2012-06-11 13:34:34 UTC
IMHO the damage mode nicely puts ishtar back on the field.

Gallente race is a lot about huge DPS with applicability issue. That is accomplished with this module.

Pinky is right. With this module the ishtar nearly outDPS all other HACs (all except deimos imho). That is fine and not a problem at all. As per daimos it is very problematic for ishtar to apply that damage which balances it out. Sure it has much more flexibility than other HACs which makes it much better for solo.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#279 - 2012-06-11 17:07:26 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
This thread contains WAY too much eft warrioring....



This.

The reason deimos/Ishtars are never flown in PVP but are awesome on EFT, applicable DPS.

I've tried different setups, in game and out, and while the 1K dps Ishtar SOUNDS like it works, it works about as well as blaster Deimos' do in PVP. It is simply far harder to keep and maintain that 1000 dps than it is to apply 500dps from a Hurricane or vagabond.

Meanwhile, you have to use two fitting mods, to even fit a tank, and the tank is paltry for a shield buffer fit. Good luck keeping that on the field. Combine that with the larger sig res, and the silly fast time it takes to destroy ogres, and you effectively have a 140M isk useless paper boat that has good paper numbers but nothing else.

In large fleet battles, in sufficient numbers, I can see a group of ishtars rigged for straight dps and ogre IIs being interesting to mess with, but for small gang, or solo work, the ship is a joke, as is most every other Gallente ship.



The ishtar is never flown in pvp?

Are you bloody insane? The ishtar is one of the absolute best HAC's for solo pvp..

Sorry i don't think its OP now with the new mods but its not a little used ship..


Yes, but that doesn't make it flown often. Most pvp isn't solo, and the Ishtar is one of the least used, despite being "best for solo". Going off numbers, it is one of the lesser used in pvp.