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C5s w/ T3 Armor Spider

Author
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1 - 2012-06-03 12:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Hey guys, going to move into a WH not long from now and we're thinking of using T3 armor cruisers with remote reps to do the sites but I have a couple questions:

1. Is this even possible in T3s? (Proteus/Legion) If the answer is no the rest of my questions are kinda moot.

2. For the Proteus, can Blasters achieve enough range for WHs or do you need to go rails? (I'm assuming 40+km on the Legion with Heavy Pulse/Scorch is enough)

3. How many Legions/Proteus will we need to complete sites?

4. How do you deal with neuting in sites? Cap chains are difficult because it's hard to get T3s with 2 utility highs unless you use a useless subsystem(correct if wrong).

5. Whats a good resist benchmark to hit? 70% across the board? or 80%? and will the Prot/Legion need a plate (specify if 800/1600) or is the natural buffer sufficient?

Also if you could specify good fits for both the Proteus and Legion it'll be much appreciated, thanks.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-06-03 12:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Dato Koppla wrote:
Hey guys, going to move into a WH not long from now and we're thinking of using T3 armor cruisers with remote reps to do the sites but I have a couple questions:

1. Is this even possible in T3s? (Proteus/Legion) If the answer is no the rest of my questions are kinda moot.

2. For the Proteus, can Blasters achieve enough range for WHs or do you need to go rails? (I'm assuming 40+km on the Legion with Heavy Pulse/Scorch is enough)

3. How many Legions/Proteus will we need to complete sites?

4. How do you deal with neuting in sites? Cap chains are difficult because it's hard to get T3s with 2 utility highs unless you use a useless subsystem(correct if wrong).

5. Whats a good resist benchmark to hit? 70% across the board? or 80%? and will the Prot/Legion need a plate (specify if 800/1600) or is the natural buffer sufficient?

Also if you could specify good fits for both the Proteus and Legion it'll be much appreciated, thanks.


1) Spider repping armor T3s is possible but from my experience its not particularly optimal.

2) Blasters will struggle on range - even if you use the falloff bonus and put a few TEs on with null.

Its far more common to see spider tanking, sentry drone domis in armor PVE steups in C5s than it is to see armor T3s, if you want to use T3s probably better to use a guardian pair for repping and leave the T3s to pure damage.

3) For non-escalated sites you need 5x T3 bonus'd large RR modules or about 7x non-bonused large RR distributed through the fleet for comfortable running.

4) You'd have to use an extra ship or ships over the base number needed for keeping stuff alive so that when one is being neuted out there is another that can still be repping.

5) I'd aim for 75% or higher resists across the board, you might get away without a plate on non-escalated sites but I wouldn't reccomend it - gives your logis time to react if stuff goes wrong, definitely get a 1600mm plate in there if possible.

Most people just use RR tengus for C5s, other common setups include spider repping sentry domis as mentioned and guardians/archon + amarr battleship setups, from my experience I'd say armor T3s in PVE tend to be fairly rarely used (tho have seen the odd laser legion setup used) and mostly there for support roles i.e. webbing loki, token PVP fit prot for its point range bonus to compliment the loki if you get jumped (also good for clearing out the frigs and other small stuff that comes in blaster range).
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#3 - 2012-06-03 12:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
1. It is possible, they just are very very bad at it. RR Tengus, RR battleships, buffer tanked ships with logistics and many other setups would definitely work better and... if you are in a C5 there is no reason not to use capital ships. 2 carriers, 2 dreadnoughts and some webbers and target painters will do the trick.

2. No. Blaster range is horrible and pulses with scorch are very poor for RR setups as well, since sleepers can come at quite long ranges. You would probably need beams and rails, so your dps will suck. Poor dps is the reason why all other t3's than tengus suck in RR setups.

3. 5-7 maybe. Dunno for sure since I have not seen anyone do this. It is really that bad of an idea.

4. Logistics logistics logistics, or trust in having enough friends in your RR group that they can repair enough even if a few ships are neuted.

5. 70% or 80%, depending on how much buffer you have. I would definitely fit a 1600mm if I were to try this, and no active hardeners since the neut will eventually hit you harder than you can handle.

If you want to use legions and proteus's, definitely get a few guardian pilots and fly the t3's in pure buffer and dps fits. The same setup works in PvP as well.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#4 - 2012-06-03 13:14:52 UTC
Closest setup I've seen so far for an RR armor setup is this:

Quote:

[Legion, WH Spider Test]
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Bay Loading Accelerator II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Legion Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization




But even then it needs the 5% missile implants and an armor ganglink booster to even compare to a basic tengu setup (for the person who is inevitably going to say why are you using HML when the sub-system has the HAM bonus go run a few C5s before making that comment :P).
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#5 - 2012-06-03 13:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dato Koppla
Thanks for the suggestions, I'm not sure of how many logis we have in my corp so I'll look into that, seems logi + dps is the way to go. I highly doubt we have capital access as well.

That aside what other options would you guys suggest? Are there any other armor BS that would be capable for the job or is the Domi required for its highslots? Could we run Domis/Geddons/Megas (the Domis would carry the cap) and the other BS would have 1 extra rep in the additional high?

Edit//
Thanks for the fit, I was thinking of something like that but it seems blasphemy to stick Heavies on a Legion when I have tengu skills, its just the corp is calling for armor
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#6 - 2012-06-03 14:34:18 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:

Edit//
Thanks for the fit, I was thinking of something like that but it seems blasphemy to stick Heavies on a Legion when I have tengu skills, its just the corp is calling for armor


Its not a great fit armor - T3s really don't do this well - guardians + laser legions is about as close as it gets.

You will need a few domis as the backbone of a BS setup even if some people are flying megas, baddons, etc.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#7 - 2012-06-03 15:14:32 UTC
Aite that doesn't seem practical, it seems we're best running Guardian + T3/BS dps. Some other questions:

How many Guardians are needed? What cap/rep setup is optimal for Logi IV pilots?

and thanks alot for the help so far.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#8 - 2012-06-03 15:28:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
You know the fun of wspace is gone when people get answers to their questions on carebearing in a forum. Grow some balls and test things. All the entities in wspace in their current form have iterated their own fits and ways of doing everything.
Myz Toyou
Nekkid Inc.
#9 - 2012-06-03 15:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Myz Toyou
Messoroz wrote:
All the entities in wspace in their current form have iterated their own fits and ways of doing everything.


In before Qui Shon starts argueing this, as everyone who hasnt moved into a WH on day 1 after release is clearly a copycat Lol
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#10 - 2012-06-03 15:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Dato Koppla wrote:
Aite that doesn't seem practical, it seems we're best running Guardian + T3/BS dps. Some other questions:

How many Guardians are needed? What cap/rep setup is optimal for Logi IV pilots?

and thanks alot for the help so far.


2x guardian fit along the lines of this:

Quote:

[Guardian, guardian eccm]
Damage Control II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Centii C-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I

Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I
Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I

Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Solace' Remote Bulwark Reconstruction
Large 'Regard' Power Projector
Large 'Regard' Power Projector

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router II



Should handle it ok, 3 would be a little more comfortable. Some people change the T2 ACR rig to a T2 and use an AB instead of the 2nd ECCM. This fit means you can swap to PVP on the fly as well.

EDIT: The ECCM isn't required for sleepers but means that can be used for PVP easily without fuss changing stuff around.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#11 - 2012-06-03 16:06:46 UTC
Thats awesome, thanks for everything, all I needed really. This thread can die now.
Ned Black
Driders
#12 - 2012-06-04 07:26:47 UTC
No, I would say that its not good enough . Sure, you will probably be able to keep alive, but you will be hard pressed to actually kill anything but the frigs... which on the other hand will go down nice and fast...

The major problem I see with an armor repping ball is the range. If you fly a repping ball then you need to stick close to each other at all times, if you dont then you die. And in higher end WHs the amount of webbing is fairly extensive. Since the targets are usually 60-115km out in C5s and the range of armor T3s are fairly limited you will need to move into position to kill them. If one of the group is webbed you can not move very fast or the webbing target will go down in flames. So you cant really move around much , and you will be hard pressed to reach the far out targets that are still moving around...

If you go with backup guardian logistics then I would take three of those and skip the repping ball alltogether.

The reason tengus work in a repping ball is because of their ability to hit stuff even at very long range, they can sit stationary and just shoot, armor ships usually cant.
Bibosikus
Air
#13 - 2012-06-06 01:08:46 UTC
Worth noting that if you're really planning on a C5, you *will* meet the likes of CCRES and AHARM before long, and they *will* own your face. So start out with some cheap stuff.

RR Domis with nano'd Orge II's (T2 fit, less than 200m) and an armour-boosting Legion safed up is a good combo.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#14 - 2012-06-06 01:50:13 UTC
Definitely going to run into some well setup WH PVP alliances in C5 space. Generally tho shouldn't have too much trouble unless your stupid enough to smack talk the wrong people or hide in POS too many times when you have enough people online to actually put up a fight.

On a side note CCRES seem to be on something of a hiatus these days? and AHARM seem to be less interested in your average C5 dweller - compared to other corps that more regularly crash their C5 links looking for pew.