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CSM 7 Summit Day 3 Quick Report

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VaMei
Meafi Corp
#41 - 2012-06-05 16:42:41 UTC
Thanks for the short version. I know that's all you can give, NDA & all.

Looking forward to some juicy industry tidbits. ;)
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#42 - 2012-06-05 20:18:39 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Oh, the old UO stories. I also have a story about how PvP killed the first MMO I played, Pirates of the Burning Sea. Already told it a couple times IIRC so will not repeat it.


The important thing to take from the UO story isn't what your opinion on unrestricted PvP is, it's what happens when you create a separation - a PVP game, and a PVE game that don't mesh anymore. The answer is quite simple: most everyone flocks to the PVE game, and the PVP game stands deserted. If that's the case, you'd better hope to hell that people find the base game fun enough to keep subscribing, otherwise your game is dead and you don't even know it yet. It's actually even worse in Eve's case, given the symbiosis between PVP losing ships and PVE selling them new ships and modules. Take one away and the whole thing is likely going to collapse.


"Safe from griefing" is not the same as "safe from PvP".

Can you be griefed in a station? No. Is it safe from PvP? Neither. Actually, some of the harshest and thoughest PvP in EVE happens in stations.

You see, a few days ago i lost 100,000 ISK because I typed a "4" instead of a "5". In less than a minute, my 100,000 ISK were gone forever and someone had a laugh at my silly sell order. I also laughed at it, completely exhilarated at how fast the wrong order had been taken advantage of.

That's PvP for you and yet it was not as if someone stalked into my hangar, set up a bomb and blew my stuff.

So no, i don't count on CCP implementing PvE stuff for WiS. Would be nice, of course, but themepark MMOs are not my brand. Social gameplay would be nice, and also something that allowed players to build up something lasting safe from griefing and in small incremental steps.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-06-05 20:48:48 UTC
That all sounds nice in theory, but the problem comes when you have to define what griefing even means - the gulf between different definitions should be obvious given the differing reactions to say, Hulkageddon. What is griefing to you (and others) is PVP to someone else, so even if your changes remove what you could call "griefing", chances are what you're actually doing is actively allowing people to opt out of danger, which is exactly where the Trammel comparisons kick in.

Also, that market PVP story - without ships blowing up, there is no market to play, and that story couldn't have happened. Never forget that you cannot have one without the other.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#44 - 2012-06-05 22:06:50 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
That all sounds nice in theory, but the problem comes when you have to define what griefing even means - the gulf between different definitions should be obvious given the differing reactions to say, Hulkageddon. What is griefing to you (and others) is PVP to someone else, so even if your changes remove what you could call "griefing", chances are what you're actually doing is actively allowing people to opt out of danger, which is exactly where the Trammel comparisons kick in.

Also, that market PVP story - without ships blowing up, there is no market to play, and that story couldn't have happened. Never forget that you cannot have one without the other.


I don't say "remove griefing", i say "give us something else".

Removing griefing can't be done without killing EVE, as the pussies blowing ships around wouldn't do so if they had to suffer the consequences. Then the game would stagnate and die. But if those 50,000 griefers get added 100,000 empire builders safe from griefing, then EVE wins at the end of the day.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#45 - 2012-06-05 22:16:38 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Actually, some of the harshest and thoughest PvP in EVE happens in stations.

You see, a few days ago i lost 100,000 ISK because I typed a "4" instead of a "5". In less than a minute, my 100,000 ISK were gone forever and someone had a laugh at my silly sell order. I also laughed at it, completely exhilarated at how fast the wrong order had been taken advantage of.

That's PvP for you and yet it was not as if someone stalked into my hangar, set up a bomb and blew my stuff.

So no, i don't count on CCP implementing PvE stuff for WiS. Would be nice, of course, but themepark MMOs are not my brand. Social gameplay would be nice, and also something that allowed players to build up something lasting safe from griefing and in small incremental steps.


Ummm, I hate to break it to you but making a mistake on a sell order and having someone shop and buy your stuff is not "PvP". You're supposed to be careful when placing orders.

Also, people blowing up your stuff is not griefing. It's how EVE works. Safety, and EVE, are fundamentally incompatible. You can take measures to reduce danger, but total safety doesn't exist anywhere in space, nor should it.

What exactly is it you want to build up that you haven't been able to build up?

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-05 22:51:45 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
I don't say "remove griefing", i say "give us something else".

Removing griefing can't be done without killing EVE, as the pussies blowing ships around wouldn't do so if they had to suffer the consequences. Then the game would stagnate and die. But if those 50,000 griefers get added 100,000 empire builders safe from griefing, then EVE wins at the end of the day.


My entire point was that you can't remove something if you can't even realistically define what it even IS.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#47 - 2012-06-06 03:01:53 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Actually, some of the harshest and thoughest PvP in EVE happens in stations.

You see, a few days ago i lost 100,000 ISK because I typed a "4" instead of a "5". In less than a minute, my 100,000 ISK were gone forever and someone had a laugh at my silly sell order. I also laughed at it, completely exhilarated at how fast the wrong order had been taken advantage of.

That's PvP for you and yet it was not as if someone stalked into my hangar, set up a bomb and blew my stuff.

So no, i don't count on CCP implementing PvE stuff for WiS. Would be nice, of course, but themepark MMOs are not my brand. Social gameplay would be nice, and also something that allowed players to build up something lasting safe from griefing and in small incremental steps.


Ummm, I hate to break it to you but making a mistake on a sell order and having someone shop and buy your stuff is not "PvP". You're supposed to be careful when placing orders.

Also, people blowing up your stuff is not griefing. It's how EVE works. Safety, and EVE, are fundamentally incompatible. You can take measures to reduce danger, but total safety doesn't exist anywhere in space, nor should it.

What exactly is it you want to build up that you haven't been able to build up?


You are completely 100% safe so long as you sit on your space couch and DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-06-06 10:06:56 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Actually, some of the harshest and thoughest PvP in EVE happens in stations.

You see, a few days ago i lost 100,000 ISK because I typed a "4" instead of a "5". In less than a minute, my 100,000 ISK were gone forever and someone had a laugh at my silly sell order. I also laughed at it, completely exhilarated at how fast the wrong order had been taken advantage of.

That's PvP for you and yet it was not as if someone stalked into my hangar, set up a bomb and blew my stuff.

So no, i don't count on CCP implementing PvE stuff for WiS. Would be nice, of course, but themepark MMOs are not my brand. Social gameplay would be nice, and also something that allowed players to build up something lasting safe from griefing and in small incremental steps.


Ummm, I hate to break it to you but making a mistake on a sell order and having someone shop and buy your stuff is not "PvP". You're supposed to be careful when placing orders.

Also, people blowing up your stuff is not griefing. It's how EVE works. Safety, and EVE, are fundamentally incompatible. You can take measures to reduce danger, but total safety doesn't exist anywhere in space, nor should it.

What exactly is it you want to build up that you haven't been able to build up?


You are completely 100% safe so long as you sit on your space couch and DON'T TOUCH ANYTHING.



Tripping over your own shoelaces isn't "PvP".

Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#49 - 2012-06-06 12:58:30 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Actually, some of the harshest and thoughest PvP in EVE happens in stations.

You see, a few days ago i lost 100,000 ISK because I typed a "4" instead of a "5". In less than a minute, my 100,000 ISK were gone forever and someone had a laugh at my silly sell order. I also laughed at it, completely exhilarated at how fast the wrong order had been taken advantage of.

That's PvP for you and yet it was not as if someone stalked into my hangar, set up a bomb and blew my stuff.

So no, i don't count on CCP implementing PvE stuff for WiS. Would be nice, of course, but themepark MMOs are not my brand. Social gameplay would be nice, and also something that allowed players to build up something lasting safe from griefing and in small incremental steps.


Ummm, I hate to break it to you but making a mistake on a sell order and having someone shop and buy your stuff is not "PvP". You're supposed to be careful when placing orders.


I was giving an example of how market PvP works.

Quote:
Also, people blowing up your stuff is not griefing. It's how EVE works. Safety, and EVE, are fundamentally incompatible. You can take measures to reduce danger, but total safety doesn't exist anywhere in space, nor should it.


Bullshit. Ganking Hulks with trial alts is completely safe.
RAP ACTION HERO
#50 - 2012-06-06 14:15:27 UTC
uh ganking alts still need to be funded and trained. and recycling alts run the risk of banning.

vitoc erryday
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2012-06-07 17:14:12 UTC
whats the eta on the minutes ? I've looked everywhere but can't find an estimate

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2012-06-07 18:13:03 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
whats the eta on the minutes ? I've looked everywhere but can't find an estimate


They usually take a couple of weeks

Then everyone complains that they weren't worth waiting for

Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#53 - 2012-06-07 21:01:28 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
whats the eta on the minutes ? I've looked everywhere but can't find an estimate


An estimate is difficult to provide at this time because we haven't created minutes this way before. We have a new recording method to work from, that more thoroughly documented the session content. Whether this speeds up or slows down the process has yet to be seen, we're in the middle of working through our initial attempts here. Several weeks is a conservative guess.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#54 - 2012-06-08 00:33:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
Minutes should take 3-4 weeks before release (gotta be written, proofed, approved, etc...) , after which we'll be doing another live Town Hall meeting. In the meantime, have a read of this and Part 2 will be up this weekend.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#55 - 2012-06-09 07:01:46 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
(...)

What exactly is it you want to build up that you haven't been able to build up?


I just dropped that ball here:

Thinking outside of the box

There is life beyond griefing in space, if only CCP dares to.
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