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Warfare & Tactics

 
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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#341 - 2012-06-05 05:50:59 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I wont be running a single button if there is no chance of PvP, regardless of where i base from.


Funny then when only times I see you coming to plex is with your t3 links and massively outnumbering enemy. I quess 1% chance is enough to get you sit still for 20 odd minutes...
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#342 - 2012-06-05 07:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:

Why would you go 11 jumps? Why wouldn't you just coodinate to have people who are out there chase him out? You know split up the blob so you can actually coodinate attacks and defenses?
Nobody wants to live in Athounon because there are no fights out there on a regular basis. Nor in Covryn. Nor in Villasen. Nor in Hasama, nor Hysera. Never have been. The fights are all near the "front lines" from Eha to Tama to Heyd. Living outside this area leads to no fights. There were some fights to be had in Agoze area when Damar would base down there on occasion, but otherwise people like to be where the action is, and the action is currently wherever Caldari base out of in low sec.

Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:

Crosi's biggest complaint is that we kick the Caldari's ass every day in fights, but they are capturing more systems than us because they are more willing to orbit buttons than we are - which is a valid point.


Its the key point. At base plexing is what brings on all these consequences. But plexing is still mainly pve.
Again, plexing is pve when one side decides not to engage. No NPCs (your suggestion in many threads) in plexes does not solve that issue. A notification system (your other suggestion) would potentiallly lead to an engagement that would otherwise not have happened -which is a good thing - but it still does not help if one side decides to not engage. The only thing that solves that issue is for both sides to decide to engage, for whatever reason.

What we do need, is a way to resolve the issue quickly when one side decides to blueball the other. Sitting on a timer for 25 minutes after winning a plex is no reward. Hanging out in a FW mission for 11 hours after chasing off a mission runner is no reward either. Waiting for hours to run enough plexes after stopping a bunker bust sucks too.

Same old arguments that have been around for years.....
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#343 - 2012-06-05 08:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Faction war should not be WON or LOST, it should be a platform where newer and older players alike can undock and PvP without a massively and artificially tilted scale in terms of income or places to dock based on actions that they could not have prevented and are obliged to waste their time undoing the damage the PvE'ers did while he may well have been in bed.

If you want to WIN or LOSE get your ******* ass to null sec and stop advocating for ruining lowsec like nullsec already is.


I don't disagree, but IMO FW ought to be filled with lots of pvp. The casual way with no consequences at all lead to fewer fights. The bottom line, IMO, is
1. There are 4x more fights after this patch than there were before the patch.
2. Every issue that could possibly affect a player's ability to perform casual pvp within FW is easily handled. For example, you could simply ask QCATS or any number of other Gallente FW players to help you move your stuff, or you could use a courier service like Black Frog.

Really that's it. More pew = better pew. If consequences in FW drives away pvp, then it's a bad idea. If it brings more, then it's a good idea. So far it looks to be working really well. That could change after a few months.

Quote:

EDIT - anyway xgal is so much a supporter of the current state of affairs that his corp has left gallente and plans to cash in on the matar's work by plexing caldari systems for matar LP and further flooding the market with SFI's. And yet he still claims this is all working well. What a disingenuous dullard.
See there's another easy adjustment you could do to make more isk. Tons of ways around that issue as well. Note that I wasn't in favor of this move, but most of my corp was. As you have already pointed out, I fly Gallente faction hulls most of the time. I would rather overpay for Gallente faction ships and use them as always. They are still a bargain even at inflated prices since LP is so easy to come by.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#344 - 2012-06-05 08:38:36 UTC
I don't have time to read thru the entire thread so my apologies if this has already been addressed. I have also done a bit of research on sneaking into enemy faction high-sec territory and say camp a station to no avail (couldn't find any info on it), because this is exactly how my friend was killed... and it appealed to me, both his dead and camping a station. This was a year ago.

When I arrived to high-sec I was constantly followed by fleet NPCs no matter how many times I jumped to random places within the system, they would always just appear after some seconds. Is this apart of Inferno? You used to be able to sneak into high-sec and provide a neat little surprise attack, but now you can't? That really sucks. Sad

Also can't cloak, but I think that happened awhile back.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#345 - 2012-06-05 11:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Faction war should not be WON or LOST, it should be a platform where newer and older players alike can undock and PvP without a massively and artificially tilted scale in terms of income or places to dock based on actions that they could not have prevented and are obliged to waste their time undoing the damage the PvE'ers did while he may well have been in bed.

If you want to WIN or LOSE get your ******* ass to null sec and stop advocating for ruining lowsec like nullsec already is.


I don't disagree, but IMO FW ought to be filled with lots of pvp. The casual way with no consequences at all lead to fewer fights. The bottom line, IMO, is
1. There are 4x more fights after this patch than there were before the patch.
2. Every issue that could possibly affect a player's ability to perform casual pvp within FW is easily handled. For example, you could simply ask QCATS or any number of other Gallente FW players to help you move your stuff, or you could use a courier service like Black Frog.

Really that's it. More pew = better pew. If consequences in FW drives away pvp, then it's a bad idea. If it brings more, then it's a good idea. So far it looks to be working really well. That could change after a few months.

Quote:

EDIT - anyway xgal is so much a supporter of the current state of affairs that his corp has left gallente and plans to cash in on the matar's work by plexing caldari systems for matar LP and further flooding the market with SFI's. And yet he still claims this is all working well. What a disingenuous dullard.
See there's another easy adjustment you could do to make more isk. Tons of ways around that issue as well. Note that I wasn't in favor of this move, but most of my corp was. As you have already pointed out, I fly Gallente faction hulls most of the time. I would rather overpay for Gallente faction ships and use them as always. They are still a bargain even at inflated prices since LP is so easy to come by.


There is not 4x more fights now than there was this time last year when caldari was more active. The fights have come from new people joining which is mostly as a result of fw being under ccp's spotlight more than the prospect of locking people out of stations.

As for more pew, it will only lead to more pew as long as people can afford it. The devaluation of LP in the lower quintile is far too harsh. The high quintile are so cheap that they will just devalue the assets being sold. The isk impact of the occupancy war at the moment can be crippling for the losing side, wheras it should just have been a subtle adjustment so as to not stifle peoples ability to say, form a BS fleet for a bunker bust.

Some people dont have the free time to spend orbiting buttons that you have xg, isk shouldnt be harder to come by in fw than it is in lvl 4 high sec missions, but in the lower quintile it certainly is even when run at the speed i can do them.

As for changing faction for purely financial reasons, thats not an adjustment, thats a tacit admission that the level of financial consequences of the current occupancy war are totally unjustified.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#346 - 2012-06-05 11:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I wont be running a single button if there is no chance of PvP, regardless of where i base from.


Funny then when only times I see you coming to plex is with your t3 links and massively outnumbering enemy. I quess 1% chance is enough to get you sit still for 20 odd minutes...


For someone that uses sithis t3 links whenever he can you sure seem to have a hang up about other peoples. As for your impression that i am always outnumbering people all the time, that is something you might want to talk to you therapist about. Perhaps ask him about persecution complexes.

Also, its ironic that you complain about my single alt and the advantage he affords me when you have innumerable alts all plexing and counter plexing almost 23/7.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#347 - 2012-06-05 12:03:29 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
There is not 4x more fights now than there was this time last year when caldari was more active. The fights have come from new people joining which is mostly as a result of fw being under ccp's spotlight more than the prospect of locking people out of stations.


And when the wave of new people coming to FW will inevitably end when they understand old bittervets just use them to farm lolmails and that those no bothering to join "big corps" are forever sneered and mocked in militia chats, what then? Same bittervets we had insulting each other at the start of year will keep insulting each other and FW becomes the usual wasteland it was for several years now.

That's my prediction anyway.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2012-06-05 12:10:44 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
There is not 4x more fights now than there was this time last year when caldari was more active. The fights have come from new people joining which is mostly as a result of fw being under ccp's spotlight more than the prospect of locking people out of stations.


And when the wave of new people coming to FW will inevitably end when they understand old bittervets just use them to farm lolmails and that those no bothering to join "big corps" are forever sneered and mocked in militia chats, what then? Same bittervets we had insulting each other at the start of year will keep insulting each other and FW becomes the usual wasteland it was for several years now.

That's my prediction anyway.


Says bittervet?

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#349 - 2012-06-05 12:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Why would you go 11 jumps? Why wouldn't you just coodinate to have people who are out there chase him out? You know split up the blob so you can actually coodinate attacks and defenses?
Nobody wants to live in Athounon because there are no fights out there on a regular basis. Nor in Covryn. Nor in Villasen. Nor in Hasama, nor Hysera. Never have been. The fights are all near the "front lines" from Eha to Tama to Heyd. Living outside this area leads to no fights. There were some fights to be had in Agoze area when Damar would base down there on occasion, but otherwise people like to be where the action is, and the action is currently wherever Caldari base out of in low sec......



Once you add these large economic consequences for taking systems then people would spread out if systems started being taken in a far off place.

I don't know about Caldari/gallente space but I actually got quite a few fights in and around todifraun. (my corp got a bit tired of the same old fighting on the houla gate in kourm so we moved out there) Not only are there pirates there but there were faction war players as well.

Of course you are right. As long as the station lock out rule applies it will be hard to have a dynamic war that spreads out over the whole front instead of just 2 or 3 systems. Roll

Before station lock outs the Amarr and minmatar were pretty much spread out through out the fw area and it lead to allot of great roaming. Now you pretty much just take your blob to 2 jumps from kamela or gtfo.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sokor Loro
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2012-06-05 15:18:58 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Catching people at a gate trying to evacuate your blob is the pvp your looking for? Scanning them down to gank them?

Your views of pvp are very much like null sec, which isn't surprising, because that is where you come from. Roam around in a blob and try to gank people as they run from you. Making it so they can't dock from your blob just helps the pvp.


Why would the offensive plexers just dock up? Perhaps to reship into ships that can enter a plex where your not outnumbering them so significantly? Not anymore.

We usually would plex to look for fights. Of course, now, when you only have a few systems in play the blob will come and chase you out.

In pre-inferno faction war all the pvp didn't revolve around hunting and catching someone who was trying to get away.

Station games were never a problem for faction war because if you don't want to play station games you are never forced to. Only people who don't know the basic mechanics of insta undocks would have problems.


Please. People in faction warfare are no different than people in nullsec. If you have a good chance of winning, you engage. If you might lose, you run. Almost every time. I'm not going to pass on pvp just because someone doesn't feel like dying. If people dock to reship, it's to a complete counter to whatever their up against. Most of the time they dock up to avoid the fight entirely; i.e. avoiding pvp.

If you prefer people to come in equal ship types and equal numbers, more power to you. I'd be happy to engage that. But I'm not picky about my pvp, and I'll take it where I can find it. If it means kamikaze'ing 15 thrashers just to kill one assault frigate, fine by me. If it means camping a gate, sure. If your fleet decides to safe up, I'll happily scan you down and drop my guys on top of you. And if we have to chase a fleet across a few systems, fine.

These are tactics used everywhere by everyone. Don't pretend that faction warfare is/was some sort of sanctuary of "good" pvp.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#351 - 2012-06-05 17:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
As for changing faction for purely financial reasons, thats not an adjustment, thats a tacit admission that the level of financial consequences of the current occupancy war are totally unjustified.

Yeah, maybe I've got a skewed perspective.

I remember when the rewards for FW really sucked. No bonused FW LP items. FDU standings would go down if you failed a mission. No rewards for plexing other than tags if you shot all the NPCs (and standings gain for one time epic arc mission). Isk was made by running non-FW missions on the side or running anomalies when things were slow.

This 4x penalty (which can easily be a 2x penalty if you and friends apply only a few LP to a few systems), is still outstanding return on investment since LP is accrued while you're in theater and can run a button while waiting for something to kill.

Most low-sec pvpers (pirates) have to set up alts to do industry or whatever to make their isk to afford their shiny toys. We just have to play FW.

Residual PvE while PvP'ing. We've still got it easy.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#352 - 2012-06-05 20:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
As for changing faction for purely financial reasons, thats not an adjustment, thats a tacit admission that the level of financial consequences of the current occupancy war are totally unjustified.

Yeah, maybe I've got a skewed perspective.

I remember when the rewards for FW really sucked. No bonused FW LP items. FDU standings would go down if you failed a mission. No rewards for plexing other than tags if you shot all the NPCs (and standings gain for one time epic arc mission). Isk was made by running non-FW missions on the side or running anomalies when things were slow. .


Yeah well the amarr are basically cut off from all but a few mission agents. Their lp is more worthless than it was before the bonused fw lp items, even if we do run missions. The lp for pvp kills and plexing is equally worthless. The tags aren'w worth allot because the lp is worhtless. Add the no docking rule and we are worse off compared to where we were when fw started.

In other words if you want to fly for amarr you better have a different way to make money beside faction war.

X Gallentius wrote:


Residual PvE while PvP'ing. We've still got it easy.



I would call plexing (the thing that brings about all the consequences) residual pvp while pveing.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#353 - 2012-06-05 20:29:58 UTC
It's so much worse nowadays... Roll
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#354 - 2012-06-05 20:31:05 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
It's so much worse nowadays... Roll



Fly amarr and see for yourself.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#355 - 2012-06-05 21:01:03 UTC
Sokor Loro wrote:
If people dock to reship, it's to a complete counter to whatever their up against.


Actually, the biggest draw to me to have ships seeded around is to switch DOWN into a ship that could fit into whatever size plex the wt(s) are in.
Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#356 - 2012-06-05 21:08:51 UTC
Who says FW needs to generate oodles of money for either side. There is a lot that can be accomplished with a little organization and ships under 5 mil, fit and all.

I'll just leave these here:

[url]http://rifterlings.com/kb/index.php/kill_related/1154/[/url]

[url]http://rifterlings.com/kb/index.php/kill_related/1149/[/url]


True for the tengu we had to batphone in larger ships to break the tank, but it was a t1 cheap-fit frig gang that locked him down. Despite the obvious mechanics bugs, we're still mixing it up and more active across the board.
Nave Drallig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#357 - 2012-06-05 23:55:13 UTC
i just love how these pvp corps that were so busy talking about "carebear tears" are busy getting beaten BY carebears and now supplying the tears... its really kinda ironic.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#358 - 2012-06-05 23:58:43 UTC
Nave Drallig wrote:
i just love how these pvp corps that were so busy talking about "carebear tears" are busy getting beaten BY carebears and now supplying the tears... its really kinda ironic.


Well if hte occupancy war is entirely driven by PvE, why would it be so surprising that bears are winning?

Also, the gangs that have been around all week seem to be drying up after getting smashed a few times and were left with lower levels of pvp than last week and a ****** occupancy system that at the moment means both gallente and caldari factions are earning **** squat for the lp but pvp still costs the same.

This is a joke.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#359 - 2012-06-06 00:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Wenron wrote:
Who says FW needs to generate oodles of money for either side. There is a lot that can be accomplished with a little organization and ships under 5 mil, fit and all.

I'll just leave these here:

[url]http://rifterlings.com/kb/index.php/kill_related/1154/[/url]

[url]http://rifterlings.com/kb/index.php/kill_related/1149/[/url]


True for the tengu we had to batphone in larger ships to break the tank, but it was a t1 cheap-fit frig gang that locked him down. Despite the obvious mechanics bugs, we're still mixing it up and more active across the board.



Just because you role play and avoid larger fights doesnt mean that should be everyones goal. Its pretty ignorant for you to suggest it really, its like telling people to play an fps game only using the jump key.

This game has many ships and roles, why are so many people obsessed with only flying 1 or 2?
Nave Drallig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#360 - 2012-06-06 00:01:17 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Nave Drallig wrote:
i just love how these pvp corps that were so busy talking about "carebear tears" are busy getting beaten BY carebears and now supplying the tears... its really kinda ironic.


Well if hte occupancy war is entirely driven by PvE, why would it be so surprising that bears are winning?

Also, the gangs that have been around all week seem to be drying up after getting smashed a few times and were left with lower levels of pvp than last week and a ****** occupancy system that at the moment means both gallente and caldari factions are earning **** squat for the lp but pvp still costs the same.

This is a joke.



i will admit i am new account less then 2 months old but ive discovered you have to do a bit of both. when my corp runs fleet's i PvP, when i see a gall in local in our systems i run solo pvp defense (usually they run). and when neither of these are an option i go plex. just sounds to me like you guys are too busy going "well i WANT to do this and nothing else". and thats why your losing.