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New to investing - Are you sure these aren't scams?
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KillerOfMen
Unquestionable Prosperity
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#1 - 2012-06-04 19:57:28 UTC
Hello!

My play time in eve is going to be very limited for the next six months and possibly longer. I was hoping to invest some of my isk so it's not just sitting around while I'm gone. I've never invested before and I have a few questions about it.

1. I'm used to everything in eve being a scam. Are there investments that aren't scams?

2. How do I find investments? I've seen a lot of posts in this forum talking about bonds and whatnot. Do I just scroll through them? Is there a better way?

3. What sort of return is typical? I've seen everything between 10% and 2%. Are the higher returns more likely to be scams?

4. Which characters and organizations have proven trustworthy in the past?

Thank you very much for your help! :) :)
KillerOfMen
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-06-04 20:02:33 UTC
I run an investment consulting service, helping investors choose the best and safest investment for them. Send me a mail with links to the investments you're looking at and your preferred terms (length, risk to reward preference, etc), and I'll walk you through the process. I also have extensive contacts with regular bond offerors, so I can usually cut a deal to get a longer/shorter term if required, and sometimes a even a better rate.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#3 - 2012-06-04 20:20:18 UTC
KillerOfMen wrote:
Hello!

My play time in eve is going to be very limited for the next six months and possibly longer. I was hoping to invest some of my isk so it's not just sitting around while I'm gone. I've never invested before and I have a few questions about it.

1. I'm used to everything in eve being a scam. Are there investments that aren't scams?

2. How do I find investments? I've seen a lot of posts in this forum talking about bonds and whatnot. Do I just scroll through them? Is there a better way?

3. What sort of return is typical? I've seen everything between 10% and 2%. Are the higher returns more likely to be scams?

4. Which characters and organizations have proven trustworthy in the past?

Thank you very much for your help! :) :)
KillerOfMen



1. yes, there are good investments out there

2. research, keep up to date on the forums as the better investments go quick

3. anything from 2% up to 15% depeding on lots of variables

4. researching that yourself will give good insight into the investment market

tip: research characters prior to doing any business with them Big smile

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#4 - 2012-06-04 20:27:10 UTC
Honestly, we're just guessing. Collateral helps, but even there you are hoping the collateral holder doesn't flake. Basically it's just a really in depth form of gambling.
Mme Pinkerton
#5 - 2012-06-04 20:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mme Pinkerton
KillerOfMen wrote:
4. Which characters and organizations have proven trustworthy in the past?

Some notable characters that had proven to be trustworthy in the past:

Bad Bobby, Xabier, Brock Nelson, Ricdics

and here are three more:

Fury Banker, cosmoray & Manalapan

I'm not providing any links or additional commentary as I think you should look these things up yourself - going through the old threads should help you a lot to understand the environment.

edit: some more pointers
* Here's a forum post that should give you some food for thought on investment practices: Linkage
* If you ask yourself if unsecured investments are viable in general just search for "RAW23" and "Elise Darkstar" and you should find several discussions (and little agreement) on that topic.
* Haskell's "History of MD" threads are an excellent source of information.

An IPO guide (David H'Levi) | Towards a Positive Argument For Investing (RAW23) | Freighter Operations 101 (Kazuo Ishiguro) | Dominion market analysis (Akita T)
Cutout Man
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-06-04 20:49:05 UTC
I've taken the slightly lower risk option of offering loans for collateral. I've chosen Chribba and V.V. as acceptable collateral holders. But in the end, that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking a risk and assuming they value their reputations/characters/in game businesses more than my piddling 10B. I can't imagine doing uncollateralized loans but people do it often.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#7 - 2012-06-04 21:10:26 UTC
KillerOfMen wrote:
Hello!

My play time in eve is going to be very limited for the next six months and possibly longer. I was hoping to invest some of my isk so it's not just sitting around while I'm gone. I've never invested before and I have a few questions about it.

1. I'm used to everything in eve being a scam. Are there investments that aren't scams?

2. How do I find investments? I've seen a lot of posts in this forum talking about bonds and whatnot. Do I just scroll through them? Is there a better way?

3. What sort of return is typical? I've seen everything between 10% and 2%. Are the higher returns more likely to be scams?

4. Which characters and organizations have proven trustworthy in the past?

Thank you very much for your help! :) :)
KillerOfMen


Personally I stay out of it alltogether, I dont like free money, (rule number1) because NOTHING in life is free and I dont like to borrow money, because go back and read my only rule.

Indeed, I suspect a few posts to be legitimate and a few to be Scams, Apologies, but stereotyping is a shortcut in life, I chose to use it to preserve my well being.
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-05 01:16:38 UTC
Loans are not free money, and should never be treated as such.
That should save your #1 rule.

It's only a way of leverage, and if used properly, it is never in any risk.
If you take a loan to speculate on the zydrine market that's a whole other thing..
snake pies
Dixon Cox Butte Preservation Society
#9 - 2012-06-05 11:32:23 UTC
they are scams
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#10 - 2012-06-05 12:34:59 UTC
Cutout Man wrote:
I've taken the slightly lower risk option of offering loans for collateral. I've chosen Chribba and V.V. as acceptable collateral holders. But in the end, that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking a risk and assuming they value their reputations/characters/in game businesses more than my piddling 10B. I can't imagine doing uncollateralized loans but people do it often.


Don't worry, as long as nothing lethal happens to me, I am going to give collateral to whom belongs including you.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
flakeys
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-06-05 20:00:19 UTC
OllieNorth wrote:
Honestly, we're just guessing. Collateral helps, but even there you are hoping the collateral holder doesn't flake. Basically it's just a really in depth form of gambling.



Spot on Lol

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Cutout Man
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-06-05 20:22:09 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Cutout Man wrote:
I've taken the slightly lower risk option of offering loans for collateral. I've chosen Chribba and V.V. as acceptable collateral holders. But in the end, that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking a risk and assuming they value their reputations/characters/in game businesses more than my piddling 10B. I can't imagine doing uncollateralized loans but people do it often.


Don't worry, as long as nothing lethal happens to me, I am going to give collateral to whom belongs including you.

No worries here. But no illusions either. Just saying what every EVE player should know in their bones: don't risk what you can't afford to lose; nothing is certain; and the classic, you don't really know anyone that well.

To new guys, if you HAVE to trust someone V.V. and Chribba are your best bets. But even then, you need to keep your wits about you. If V.V. starts holding on to ridiculous amounts of collateral, the possibility of him making a run with the ISK increases. I'M NOT SAYING HE WILL; I'm saying none of us really knows whether he will or won't. Just don't lull yourself into a sense of false security.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#13 - 2012-06-05 20:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Cutout Man wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Cutout Man wrote:
I've taken the slightly lower risk option of offering loans for collateral. I've chosen Chribba and V.V. as acceptable collateral holders. But in the end, that doesn't mean anything. I'm taking a risk and assuming they value their reputations/characters/in game businesses more than my piddling 10B. I can't imagine doing uncollateralized loans but people do it often.


Don't worry, as long as nothing lethal happens to me, I am going to give collateral to whom belongs including you.

No worries here. But no illusions either. Just saying what every EVE player should know in their bones: don't risk what you can't afford to lose; nothing is certain; and the classic, you don't really know anyone that well.

To new guys, if you HAVE to trust someone V.V. and Chribba are your best bets. But even then, you need to keep your wits about you. If V.V. starts holding on to ridiculous amounts of collateral, the possibility of him making a run with the ISK increases. I'M NOT SAYING HE WILL; I'm saying none of us really knows whether he will or won't. Just don't lull yourself into a sense of false security.


Had 100B in collaterals just till the past week (I even stopped accepting more, you can find the posts somewhere on MD last days posts).

You know what? I still don't care. Make it 1 trillion and I'll still won't care.
EvE is the place where I can be honest and still make a nice future. It's much easier in EvE than in my corrupt country RL.
The nausea I have dealing every day with dishonest people and diddles is a nice vaccine against any temptation.
To me behaving in this way is my ideal. I know it's really anti-EvE but it's how I am made and got teached and I am proud of both.
The day I steal 1 ISK is the day I failed at EvE and also at coherency in life.

Edit:
This does not mean I won't rip anyone a new one in trading and similar. Both parties pre-agree at fighting and at the rules governing it, so it's fair game.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Cutout Man
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-06-05 20:52:56 UTC
...and thus I chose you as the only other 3rd party for my loans. Again, no worries.
Taji Taka
The Arcadian Sun
#15 - 2012-06-05 22:39:31 UTC
Trust in EVE is truly the most coveted and powerful "commodity" a player can have...it is extremely hard to obtain, but very rewarding (and also tiresome with everyone coming to you).
Salome Musashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-06-06 11:37:46 UTC
Eve bonds work exactly the same as real life bonds. You look at the terms of the bond, evaluate the issuer of the bond, and then decide if the bond falls within your risk tolerance and provides sufficient returns to offset that risk.

Well, not EXACTLY the same...in RL, at least in the West, there are legal mechanisms you can use to recover some of your cash if the bond fails, but Eve doesn't go for that socialist guff. Cool

Have a look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_bond

Eve bonds aren't for the faint of heart, but if you're the kind of player who's sitting on a few billion you can afford to lose, then heck, why not?