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Warfare & Tactics

 
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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#321 - 2012-06-05 00:04:24 UTC
Cearain wrote:

You have hit the nail on the head. Like I tried to get XG to admit - the plexing war is best done without a point in a pve ship.

Plexing war is best done in a pure pve ship IN BACKWATER systems or when other side is not online. PVP content increases as you get closer to home systems and the home system's timezone.

I challenge you to take Kourm with PvE ships.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#322 - 2012-06-05 00:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:

I acknowledged there was a lot more pvp and new blood. I had a record month for kills. That is not the point. The point is weve smashed the caldari time and again this month and were still losing a system per day. Weve smashed bunker busting fleet after bunker busting fleet but the systems still fall.

I have dozens of billions of isk, the financial side of this doesnt effect me but im not a role player like you who only flies gallente faction ships, something i share with most other people. You dont seem to give a **** that others want to experience more in this game than just a vni / ****** eni or comet. For those people the isk will be getting very dry indeed.

Its already hard to get people to fill roles in more expensive doctrines, everyone can fly a logi, but very few have them. This will get worse until fw is nothing more than T1 dessies and cruisers that scuffle in plexes and run in fear from the local pirate entities.


Agreed. It does suck when you can crush your enemy on the battlefield time and again and they can still make headway through not engaging either because playing field is larger than the population (afk plexing alts), they have more wherewithall to orbit buttons than we do, or they dominate one TimeZone to bust bunkers. (The Caldari would say we're not adapting to the realities of war, but whatever.) This, I think is the downside of current mechanics -with both missions and plexes. Push a mission runner out of a mission and he just comes back after you leave. Push a plexer out of a plex and you get to orbit a button for a long period of time as your reward. Your "win" isn't. Hopefully CCP can solve these issues.


That aside, there are easy ways around financial and station lockout issues even if you don't want to plex for control, don't want to fly Gallente faction ships, or are only interested in casual pvp:

Financial: First note there are several low sec pirate entities who fly shiny stuff all the time who aren't in FW. How do they pull it off?

1) As of right now Gallente FW could pool its resources together and get to the baseline LP level by boosting all the systems it owns to the 1X level. However, it takes more teamwork now. Hundred of players are sitting on a sh** ton of LP due to plexing after this patch. Apply it all at once and we're back in business.
2) Run L4 FW missions and then do 1) above.
3) Run low sec anomolies.
4) Run L5 missions somewhere like Pellile, Murethand, Aeschee (all in or near FW area), or in southern Placid (few jumps from FW space).
5) Use the isk you have built up in FW to start another "Eve business" - like many FW players have already done.
6) Move to Minmatar FW and ***** in on their success. :)

Avoid Station Lock Out:

1) Move to a high sec station (non pirate), or
2) Move to a low sec non-FW station (pirate).
3) Drop militia for a day when your low sec system has been captured and move your sh** to another system.



Or just remove station lockout if the consequences of being locked out is a day of moving ****. More time wasted doing something not enjoyable. Theres a compulsion to do these ******** things if you are locked out of station, theres a compulsion to spin a button for up to 50 minutes after chasing out a wt who had no guns fitted or any intention of PvP but was just there to run a timer. All this dead time would be a joke in any other game but its becoming a more important and integral part of this one.

Other peoples PvE should not effect me or anyone else other than their ability to afford nice ships to come and PvP with.

Excuse me while i go run 17 plexes in murethand to undo the work done by some afk frigates last night. Yeah right.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#323 - 2012-06-05 01:02:08 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Excuse me while i go run 17 plexes in murethand to undo the work done by some afk frigates last night. Yeah right.
Solution under current mechanics is to base out of a system with more FW players in it like Heyd or Nis, or Nenna where you would only have to do one plex at your leisure (while others do the other 16). Or base out of high sec Mesybier next door if you have a sec status above -5.0.

I love the current 4x pvp on steroids, and I wish there was an easier way to get it.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#324 - 2012-06-05 01:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Excuse me while i go run 17 plexes in murethand to undo the work done by some afk frigates last night. Yeah right.
Solution under current mechanics is to base out of a system with more FW players in it like Heyd or Nis, or Nenna where you would only have to do one plex at your leisure (while others do the other 16). Or base out of high sec Mesybier next door if you have a sec status above -5.0.

I love the current 4x pvp on steroids, and I wish there was an easier way to get it.



How does that address the fact that PvE activities are making systems vunerable? Tomorrow Pynekastoh will be lost. Then somewhere else the next day then somewhere else etc. Not due to excellent pvp though that might be happening here and there, not because of the new mechanics AT ALL, but because the spotlight that CCP has put on FW attracting new players.

What is the current solution to this and to protect your own LP value? Do your own PvE? **** that. The winning side at the moment is simply that which has more people willing to avoid PvP and orbit buttons.

I cant believe you are willing to accept an activity already widely considered a **** poor gameplay choice (orbiting buttons) as the main driver of consequences in FW even when the people doing it often arnt fit for PvP and avoid all fights where possible.

The bigger fleets around that have been fighting have only been doing light plexing, the bulk of the plexers do them to make isk and are most likely relieved when they complete a plex uninterrupted. Plexes should be just a PvP flag, some 30h old toon in some back end gallente system 11 jumps from me should not be able to effect my or more importantly other newer players potential income and as such their ability to continue to afford to learn and enjoy PvP.

Also, its not exactly 4x PvP. Its more or less just back to what it was between june and october last year before we titan bridged the living **** out of caldari and they just quit.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#325 - 2012-06-05 02:12:11 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
How does that address the fact that PvE activities are making systems vunerable? Tomorrow Pynekastoh will be lost. Then somewhere else the next day then somewhere else etc. Not due to excellent pvp though that might be happening here and there, not because of the new mechanics AT ALL, but because the spotlight that CCP has put on FW attracting new players.
Honestly, if the expectation of system capture gets these guys to undock and fight, then I'm all for it. The only thing I fear is that, after our guys decide to roflstomp them at their own game, they all "find more important things to do" if/when they start losing systems.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#326 - 2012-06-05 02:13:52 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

You have hit the nail on the head. Like I tried to get XG to admit - the plexing war is best done without a point in a pve ship.

Plexing war is best done in a pure pve ship IN BACKWATER systems or when other side is not online. PVP content increases as you get closer to home systems and the home system's timezone.

I challenge you to take Kourm with PvE ships.


I challenge you to run level 1 missions for 30 hours!

If I could play eve for forty hours straight I could force the blob to come at some point yes that is true. After about 10-20 hours of pve they would likely come to close out what i do.

But in the mean time I will plex at night for about an hour then the next day my work will be undone.

But in the system they set up why would I choose kourm? Kourm doesn't give any special advantages than say todifraun. If I really wanted to play to win this whole plexing game I would be hitting those systems and ninja plexing like a sasawong. IMO that is a problem. The only reason people are getting so much pvp is because they are making decisions to not really trying to win the war but instead to pvp instead.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#327 - 2012-06-05 02:18:30 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Excuse me while i go run 17 plexes in murethand to undo the work done by some afk frigates last night. Yeah right.
Solution under current mechanics is to base out of a system with more FW players in it like Heyd or Nis, or Nenna where you would only have to do one plex at your leisure (while others do the other 16). Or base out of high sec Mesybier next door if you have a sec status above -5.0.

I love the current 4x pvp on steroids, and I wish there was an easier way to get it.




There are easier ways. Notify us when plexes are being taken. Its that simple.

Also stop the station lockouts. All that time Crosi is spending orbittting buttons he could be spending doing pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#328 - 2012-06-05 02:19:16 UTC
Cearain wrote:

But in the system they set up why would I choose kourm? Kourm doesn't give any special advantages than say todifraun. If I really wanted to play to win this whole plexing game I would be hitting those systems and ninja plexing like a sasawong. IMO that is a problem. The only reason people are getting so much pvp is because they are making decisions to not really trying to win the war but instead to pvp instead.

You're the guy who wants pvp "on demand", and is only interested in plexing to get fights, remember? You know how to get it. Go to Kourm. You don't want pvp? Go to todifraun.

sasawong is interested in occupancy warfare and knows how to win it. He also has a sh**ton of kills.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#329 - 2012-06-05 02:29:30 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

But in the system they set up why would I choose kourm? Kourm doesn't give any special advantages than say todifraun. If I really wanted to play to win this whole plexing game I would be hitting those systems and ninja plexing like a sasawong. IMO that is a problem. The only reason people are getting so much pvp is because they are making decisions to not really trying to win the war but instead to pvp instead.

You're the guy who wants pvp "on demand", and is only interested in plexing to get fights, remember? You know how to get it. Go to Kourm. You don't want pvp? Go to todifraun.


Yes I want more pvp I admit it. Like cosi said its ridiculous the amount of time you have to spend waiting for some pvp action in this game.

You seem to understand that if I wanted to fight for occupanycy I would go to todifraun if I want pvp I will go to the same old hang outs as the old faction war and wait at gates. This expansion didn't really do anything to bridge that gap by making plexing more of a pvp activity.


X Gallentius wrote:

sasawong is interested in occupancy warfare and knows how to win it. He also has a sh**ton of kills.


Sasawong has a sh**ton of time.
How many kills per hour do you think he gets?


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#330 - 2012-06-05 02:31:23 UTC
Cearain wrote:

There are easier ways. Notify us when plexes are being taken. Its that simple.

Also stop the station lockouts. All that time Crosi is spending orbittting buttons he could be spending doing pvp.

And then they run once we make 11 jumps to get there to stop them from plexing. Same problem, solves nothing. Look, we have alts all over the map, and we report these afk plexers all the time. The issue is that they run away instead of fight most of the time. 11 jumps for nothing. After a while, nobody bothers to go out there.

Crosi never has to orbit a single button to keep his stuff safe (by not stationing in low sec FW system). He has to orbit a huge number of buttons if he is the only guy basing out of a targeted system. Or, he has to run an occasional button if he is based out of a system with many other FW players.

Crosi's biggest complaint is that we kick the Caldari's ass every day in fights, but they are capturing more systems than us because they are more willing to orbit buttons than we are - which is a valid point.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#331 - 2012-06-05 02:33:53 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Yes I want more pvp I admit it. Like cosi said its ridiculous the amount of time you have to spend waiting for some pvp action in this game.

You seem to understand that if I wanted to fight for occupanycy I would go to todifraun if I want pvp I will go to the same old hang outs as the old faction war and wait at gates. This expansion didn't really do anything to bridge that gap by making plexing more of a pvp activity.


If you're complaining about not getting enough pvp action in this game through FW, then quit playing. FW, right now, is the most pvp-intensive part of Eve Online.

Quote:

Sasawong has a sh**ton of time.
How many kills per hour do you think he gets?


More than you or I, that's for sure.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#332 - 2012-06-05 02:55:17 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

There are easier ways. Notify us when plexes are being taken. Its that simple.

Also stop the station lockouts. All that time Crosi is spending orbittting buttons he could be spending doing pvp.

And then they run once we make 11 jumps to get there to stop them from plexing. Same problem, solves nothing. Look, we have alts all over the map, and we report these afk plexers all the time. The issue is that they run away instead of fight most of the time. 11 jumps for nothing. After a while, nobody bothers to go out there.


Why would you go 11 jumps? Why wouldn't you just coodinate to have people who are out there chase him out? You know split up the blob so you can actually coodinate attacks and defenses?

X Gallentius wrote:

Crosi never has to orbit a single button to keep his stuff safe (by not stationing in low sec FW system). He has to orbit a huge number of buttons if he is the only guy basing out of a targeted system. Or, he has to run an occasional button if he is based out of a system with many other FW players.

Crosi's biggest complaint is that we kick the Caldari's ass every day in fights, but they are capturing more systems than us because they are more willing to orbit buttons than we are - which is a valid point.


Its the key point. At base plexing is what brings on all these consequences. But plexing is still mainly pve.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#333 - 2012-06-05 03:04:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Yes I want more pvp I admit it. Like cosi said its ridiculous the amount of time you have to spend waiting for some pvp action in this game.

You seem to understand that if I wanted to fight for occupanycy I would go to todifraun if I want pvp I will go to the same old hang outs as the old faction war and wait at gates. This expansion didn't really do anything to bridge that gap by making plexing more of a pvp activity.


If you're complaining about not getting enough pvp action in this game through FW, then quit playing. FW, right now, is the most pvp-intensive part of Eve Online.


I agree except for rvb. I think it was the best way to find pvp before this expansion as well. But the amount of action per hour spent was and is still very bad.

Quote:

Sasawong has a sh**ton of time.
How many kills per hour do you think he gets?


More than you or I, that's for sure.[/quote]


I highly doubt he gets nearly as many kills as we do per hour. I think you underestimate the number of hours he plays. You don't get that number of vp unless you play this game allot.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#334 - 2012-06-05 03:08:07 UTC
Talk about a seriously devolving thread. You realize that you're not going to convince the other that you're right don't you?

On topic: I want to do everything I want all the time. However I can't. You don't hear me complaining about this game not being instant action and fun every second of my game time. Every plex I go into I expect to get shot at in. Sometimes I know it's a bit safer in a backwater, but who cares? It makes me iskies with a 'little' bit of PvE and the option for PvP all the time. So what if it doesn't happen within 15 minutes?

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#335 - 2012-06-05 03:18:15 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Talk about a seriously devolving thread. You realize that you're not going to convince the other that you're right don't you?

On topic: I want to do everything I want all the time. However I can't. You don't hear me complaining about this game not being instant action and fun every second of my game time. Every plex I go into I expect to get shot at in. Sometimes I know it's a bit safer in a backwater, but who cares? It makes me iskies with a 'little' bit of PvE and the option for PvP all the time. So what if it doesn't happen within 15 minutes?


Making you iskies is fine. Your little pve shenanigans effecting occupancy, less so.
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#336 - 2012-06-05 03:19:21 UTC
Both happening at the same time? FULL ON WIN. I can make isk doing what I like doing.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#337 - 2012-06-05 03:31:41 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
Talk about a seriously devolving thread. You realize that you're not going to convince the other that you're right don't you?



Oh I know. Just look at XG. It's like he is wearing blinders.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#338 - 2012-06-05 03:33:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

There are easier ways. Notify us when plexes are being taken. Its that simple.

Also stop the station lockouts. All that time Crosi is spending orbittting buttons he could be spending doing pvp.

And then they run once we make 11 jumps to get there to stop them from plexing. Same problem, solves nothing. Look, we have alts all over the map, and we report these afk plexers all the time. The issue is that they run away instead of fight most of the time. 11 jumps for nothing. After a while, nobody bothers to go out there.

Crosi never has to orbit a single button to keep his stuff safe (by not stationing in low sec FW system). He has to orbit a huge number of buttons if he is the only guy basing out of a targeted system. Or, he has to run an occasional button if he is based out of a system with many other FW players.

Crosi's biggest complaint is that we kick the Caldari's ass every day in fights, but they are capturing more systems than us because they are more willing to orbit buttons than we are - which is a valid point.


Im perma red so moving out of low sec isnt really an option.
Just because all your assets are a bunch of vni/eni and comets dont assume others are the same.
I have billions of isk in pirate / navy bs capital ships and cant fly my archon for another 50 days.

I wont be running a single button if there is no chance of PvP, regardless of where i base from.

My biggest complaint is that PvE is effecting the occupancy war and peoples ability to make isk. The example of us beating the squids in PvP is just to exemplify that in reality PvE is the only driving factor in the occupancy war which is REALLY SAD.

So no more redundant advice xg, its not like you have enlightened anyone with your pedantic drivel, i was expressing my opinion as an extension to my earlier predictions that has for the most part come true.

Faction war should not be WON or LOST, it should be a platform where newer and older players alike can undock and PvP without a massively and artificially tilted scale in terms of income or places to dock based on actions that they could not have prevented and are obliged to waste their time undoing the damage the PvE'ers did while he may well have been in bed.

If you want to WIN or LOSE get your ******* ass to null sec and stop advocating for ruining lowsec like nullsec already is.


EDIT - anyway xgal is so much a supporter of the current state of affairs that his corp has left gallente and plans to cash in on the matar's work by plexing caldari systems for matar LP and further flooding the market with SFI's. And yet he still claims this is all working well. What a disingenuous dullard.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#339 - 2012-06-05 03:48:54 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
EDIT - anyway xgal is so much a supporter of the current state of affairs that his corp has left gallente and plans to cash in on the matar's work by plexing caldari systems for matar LP and further flooding the market with SFI's. And yet he still claims this is all working well. What a disingenuous dullard.


Heh! Come on, that's pretty clever.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#340 - 2012-06-05 03:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Kuehnelt wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
EDIT - anyway xgal is so much a supporter of the current state of affairs that his corp has left gallente and plans to cash in on the matar's work by plexing caldari systems for matar LP and further flooding the market with SFI's. And yet he still claims this is all working well. What a disingenuous dullard.


Heh! Come on, that's pretty clever.


Dont get me wrong, ill probably do it too, been considering it for days. But you cant go down that avenue and at the same time claim that the current occupancy war is working well and the consequences of occupancy are in proportion and well balanced against how well your factions bears and alts are orbiting buttons.

There will only be 2 factions, amarr will join caldari and gallente will join matar. Shame but its heading that way. Might be a good move for all fw and would be good to arrange a null sec style nip so we still pvp with each other but we dont plex each others space and just mission for lp and both enjoy faction bs for 38k lp. Sound good? Shame its just the phoon and the scorp though lol. Domis at a record high :)