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ISK Faucets and Sinks for Dummies
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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#61 - 2012-06-03 23:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Linna Excel wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
90% of that runs exactly counter to what they want to do with the markets tho. They want everything to be player made and player sold.


Yet there are still some things that can't be player made so obviously CCP failed at what they wanted. It's a logical proposition to for them to reconsider how the markets work. Since 70% of the pop is hi sec mission runners for a functioning economy, you need to get rid of all that ISK.

There needs to be sinks for the ISK, you aren't going to have them in the current system. The only other option would be to scrap ISK entirely and go to a bartering system.

They didn't fail, because they have not finished.

The markets originally had EVERYTHING seeded in both buy and sell orders, and as time goes on, and we become more able to produce our own, they have removed them from the markets.

Soundwave has said they wish they could come up with a way to remove T1 BPOs from NPC sell orders, but there has to be a start point somewhere.

Edit: and there are sinks, they need to be adjusted along with the fountains to bring them in line with each other and keep inflation at a low rate. You do know that 0 inflation is a bad thing, right?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-06-03 23:55:36 UTC
This game is 9 bloody years old, how could they not be finished!?


As for the ISK sinks, they are minimal.

I can has blogging skills!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#63 - 2012-06-03 23:58:04 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
This game is 9 bloody years old, how could they not be finished!?


As for the ISK sinks, they are minimal.

The economy has been growing steadily, and when you get down to it they have removed almost every single NPC buy or sell order of any meaningfulness, with the exception of BPOs and Exotic Dancers.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2012-06-04 01:22:13 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Nice list, however it needs an Addendum for : Courier missions w/ deposits

That should read = Failed Agent missions w/ deposits

The mission doesn't necessarily have to be a Courier mission, also if the Agent mission with the Deposit is completed, the player get's that ISK back.
That's mainly because I don't count things in pairs: paying the deposit is a sink, and at that point, less ISK is in the system. Yes, at the end of the day when you finish the mission, you might get it back, but that should rather be a separate faucet under the Agent reward heading.

It's the same way I treat insurance: yes, most of the time insurance invoice will lead to insurance pay-out, but each is a separate act and any number of things can happen between them to decouple the sink from the faucet.

But it's a good point, I'll add that deposit repayment to the faucet list.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-06-04 04:27:42 UTC
Moon goo and minerals are faucets .

Unlimited resources which are used to create every in game item that is bought and sold through the whole of eve is a faucet.

It is turned into a isk faucet via npc faucets , providing players the funds necessary to purchase the materials necessary to create or purchase unlimited items and or resources .

this is some what balanced by item destruction ( i personally feel that resources should be depletable for x amount of time )

As far as value goes . Im guessing there is well based arguments for this , however when every thing in game is created from these materials is there really a difference between them and isk ?

We do not have alternative resources that could devalue a previous resource . So in my mind at least, there is no real difference between isk and or resources since one is so closely tied to the other .
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-06-04 04:33:17 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
And T2 BPOs will NEVER come back, you can thank BoB and T20 for that one.


Seriously? Could you be grasping any harder? Ugh
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#67 - 2012-06-04 04:39:35 UTC
Sri Nova wrote:
Moon goo and minerals are faucets .

Unlimited resources which are used to create every in game item that is bought and sold through the whole of eve is a faucet.

It is turned into a isk faucet via npc faucets , providing players the funds necessary to purchase the materials necessary to create or purchase unlimited items and or resources .

this is some what balanced by item destruction ( i personally feel that resources should be depletable for x amount of time )

As far as value goes . Im guessing there is well based arguments for this , however when every thing in game is created from these materials is there really a difference between them and isk ?

We do not have alternative resources that could devalue a previous resource . So in my mind at least, there is no real difference between isk and or resources since one is so closely tied to the other .

You can't blow up isk the way you can minerals and moon goo. Thats the difference.

Oh, and you can't sell either moon goo or minerals to NPCs, so there is no isk faucet there.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#68 - 2012-06-04 04:42:02 UTC
Sri Nova wrote:
Moon goo and minerals are faucets .

Unlimited resources which are used to create every in game item that is bought and sold through the whole of eve is a faucet.

It is turned into a isk faucet via npc faucets , providing players the funds necessary to purchase the materials necessary to create or purchase unlimited items and or resources .

this is some what balanced by item destruction ( i personally feel that resources should be depletable for x amount of time )

As far as value goes . Im guessing there is well based arguments for this , however when every thing in game is created from these materials is there really a difference between them and isk ?

We do not have alternative resources that could devalue a previous resource . So in my mind at least, there is no real difference between isk and or resources since one is so closely tied to the other .

go do some research before posting
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-06-04 05:00:35 UTC
I can respect the fact that isk is indestructible. but it still stands resources are unlimited so therefore regardless how they are handled they might as well be indestructible as well .
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#70 - 2012-06-04 05:12:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Sorry for being a bit sidewinderish with my last statement but somone knew what I was talking about.
Just not alot of things in eve functions both as 'material' faucet and isk sink the only other one I can think of is loyalty point store and thats not a real guarantee.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#71 - 2012-06-04 05:14:52 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Sorry for being a bit sidewinderish with my last statement but somone knew what I was talking about.
Just not alot of things in eve functions both as 'material' faucet and isk sink the only other one I can think of is loyalty point store and thats not a real guarantee.

Yeah, most are one or the other, and the LP stores are.... special.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-06-04 16:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Roisin Saoirse
Sri Nova wrote:
I can respect the fact that isk is indestructible. but it still stands resources are unlimited so therefore regardless how they are handled they might as well be indestructible as well .

Minerals aren't related to the amount if ISK in the economy, which is what the terms 'ISK faucet' and 'ISK sink' are applied to.

edit: actually, I oversimplified that statement too much. Overall, minerals and moon goo provide a slight net ISK sink due to refining costs, market transactions, POS module building costs etc.
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-06-04 17:43:06 UTC
Roisin Saoirse wrote:
Sri Nova wrote:
I can respect the fact that isk is indestructible. but it still stands resources are unlimited so therefore regardless how they are handled they might as well be indestructible as well .

Minerals aren't related to the amount if ISK in the economy, which is what the terms 'ISK faucet' and 'ISK sink' are applied to.

edit: actually, I oversimplified that statement too much. Overall, minerals and moon goo provide a slight net ISK sink due to refining costs, market transactions, POS module building costs etc.



I know i am appearing dense here. I still fail to see how unlimited minerals are considered any thing else but a faucet
especially since they are tied so closely to isk .

Once someone invests x isk into a resource they continue to get resources for how ever long they maintain that process.

Then the resources or products created from the resources are sold for isk which comes from npc faucets.

I know that very few people are selling their resources for a loss.

While resources may not directly create isk ,they do drive the desire to get more isk. Which turns the players to the isk faucets who then provide the resource providers with unlimited isk , as long as the provider is producing and selling resources.


This is why in my mind , resources are a isk faucet. Since after x amount time one will acquire more isk then one places into the resource. As long as one maintains that resource one will continue to receive isk ad infinitum . While this is dependent on players providing resources providers isk . That isk comes from the npc faucets tying resources and isk faucets together.
Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#74 - 2012-06-04 18:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Roisin Saoirse
Sri Nova wrote:
I know i am appearing dense here. I still fail to see how unlimited minerals are considered any thing else but a faucet especially since they are tied so closely to isk .

Once someone invests x isk into a resource they continue to get resources for how ever long they maintain that process.

Then the resources or products created from the resources are sold for isk which comes from npc faucets.

I know that very few people are selling their resources for a loss.

While resources may not directly create isk ,they do drive the desire to get more isk. Which turns the players to the isk faucets who then provide the resource providers with unlimited isk , as long as the provider is producing and selling resources.


This is why in my mind , resources are a isk faucet. Since after x amount time one will acquire more isk then one places into the resource. As long as one maintains that resource one will continue to receive isk ad infinitum . While this is dependent on players providing resources providers isk . That isk comes from the npc faucets tying resources and isk faucets together.

I'm hearing this quite a lot, so you're not the only one with this confusion. Blink

The 'minerals are traded using ISK from NPC faucets' isn't quite true (although actually it might be, but even then it's irrelevant to the topic really). Minerals are traded between players using ISK that is already in the system - the minerals don't actually create new ISK at all at any stage of their existence. This in itself removes minerals from the 'ISK faucet' category. (Key concepts bolded for emphasis)

That's not to say people aren't using ISK acquired from NPC 'ISK faucet' sources to buy the minerals, but that is a separate topic. In that case, it's the same as saying 'buying Rifters is an ISK faucet' because a missioner used NPC bounty money to buy it rather than ISK acquired through manipulating existing ISK on the market (which is actually one of the things minerals are for). The activity that created the NPC ISK itself is the 'ISK faucet'.

Think of it this way: if I dumped 500b units of mexallon into the market, would that immediately increase the amount of ISK already in the game economy? (ISK faucet?) Or would it just affect the movement of ISK between players as people adjusted their prices to compensate? (market manipulation perhaps, but otherwise normal trade as intended).
Zelda Wei
New Horizon Trade Exchange
#75 - 2012-06-04 19:06:35 UTC

This is not surprising when a faucet is for pissing into for stand up folks. It should be called Source or Spring
Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-06-04 20:43:28 UTC
Zelda Wei wrote:

This is not surprising when a faucet is for pissing into for stand up folks. It should be called Source or Spring

You're getting 'faucet' confused with 'urinal'. Lol
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#77 - 2012-06-04 21:51:00 UTC
Zelda Wei wrote:

This is not surprising when a faucet is for pissing into for stand up folks. It should be called Source or Spring

I want to correct you, but I'm not sure I'm ready to take on a woman who can **** into a faucet.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#78 - 2012-06-04 21:57:45 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
This game is 9 bloody years old, how could they not be finished!?


As for the ISK sinks, they are minimal.


Truth. I'd wager the biggest isk segregation in the game is canceled accounts. And that's just chopping off a bit of the available pool. It still could come back into the market again.

Although from my understanding mineral proliferation has actually caused ship prices to plummet over the years instead of rising as one would expect with increased isk value.

Anyone got historical data?