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Defending against Ganking possible ?

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2012-06-03 20:50:44 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

[Hulk] KHAAAAAAAAAAN
[Basilisk] Ahm Helpeen


Any suggestions on how to take out a brick Hulk with RR without spending almost 400m on Nados or getting 10 guys together to break reps in Catalysts?

punt either the repper or the hulk with a stabber fleet issue, dps gank the hulk

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2012-06-03 20:55:27 UTC
alternatively if the basilisk is not moving and untanked (this happens on occasion): gank the basilisk

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#83 - 2012-06-03 21:07:22 UTC
Thanks.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-06-03 21:29:02 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
It's cheaper now that GS are subsidizing it even better...


hey I forgot that a Tornado costs 10m+whatever you get from a hulk gank

good2know

Hey i didn't say a dam thing about the tornado, but go ahead and continue to be a **** heel... seems to be what you're good at.


Because other alpha options are as cost effective or viable

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#85 - 2012-06-03 21:42:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
alternatively if the basilisk is not moving and untanked (this happens on occasion): gank the basilisk

I was about to say this, but for some reason I always assume its a scimi....

I love the thought of someone trying to gank a alphafleet scimi in a 70km orbit Pirate

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#86 - 2012-06-04 00:06:27 UTC
Bossy Lady wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
The problem is, compared to Eves usual timescales to achieve anything (eg. months and years to train skills), sec status has little to no meaning. The whole outlaw thing is being invalidated by the short period of time it takes an experienced player to work back from public enemy to good standing. Feels like 2 hours of community work for murder: its still somewhat of a consequence, but it just doesn't feel appropriate.



Working back up from -10 is quite a grind. It's not something that you can do in "a couple of hours" let me assure you.


You need to smartbomb half of j 4-4 undock range to get to -10 in the first place. Working back from -10 may be a grind, but working back from a single gank isn't. More so if you have access to ring ratting BSs in gated community null.

I podded some guy in hisec and after 15 minutes I was able to happily roam hisec again. Plus I already worked back to -0.9 with hisec rats and little efforts/casual playstyle.
Maddy Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-06-04 00:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maddy Joringer
Sarah Schneider wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
The key is to remove CONCORD so that suicide gankers can be preemptively attacked.

+1

Love it when what the OP wants gives out exactly the opposite result. :p

PS: RubyPorto for CSM!!!

Quote me where i sad that ?

Concord removing is exactly what i prefer...Learn to read...
Trolls never ever learn. Dunno why ppl of ur sort have to try spoiling a good discussion
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2012-06-04 01:11:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Spikeflach wrote:
how did the 15 second gank the ganker window all the sudden become 20 seconds?
Because it depends on where you are and how you're counting.

I just decided to go test it for myself and came to the conclusion that pretty much all numbers thrown around are correct… in their own way.

In a 1.0 system, the fight is over in anywhere between 2 and 13 seconds, depending on where CONCORD is at the moment (7 seconds if it's a “clean” system). The actual destruction of the criminal happens after 17–28 seconds, but that extra time is spend without being able to lock and shoot any target, without any drones, and without any cap. Some dexterous and well-timed cap-injecting might let you get off as many as 3 pulses of smartbombs in that period (but most likely it'll just be one or two).

In a 0.7 system, the base response time has increased to 10 seconds (if you pre-spawn CONCORD, it's somewhere in the region of 6 seconds; if you herd CONCORD away from the attack spot, it's up to 16 seconds), and the same 15 seconds of the criminal being jammed/neuted applies.

In a 0.5 system, the base time has increased to 18 seconds (pre-spawning CONCORD can reduce that to 9; herding CONCORD way adds another 6 seconds), and you're still looking at the same 15 seconds of criminal helplessness.

So, at the very most, in a prepped 0.5 system an attack can go on for as long as 24 seconds before the criminal ship is locked out of the fight by CONCORD, and the ship will not actually be destroyed until after 39 seconds (but again, those extra 15 seconds can only be used to activate smartbombs). Without preparation, and with no highslots wasted on low-damage weapons, you only have to survive for less than 20 seconds.

Oh, and the reason it takes 15 seconds for the ship to die is that the CONCORD cruisers are sillly-weak as far as damage goes: they deliver a combined alpha of 2,000 damage every 5 seconds, and with 15 seconds before the battleship finishes the job, they only get off 8,000 damage total… after that, the Police Commander sets your HP to zero so no amount of HP will save you.
CCP Masterplan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#89 - 2012-08-02 10:34:46 UTC
Nice blog on the CONCORD response-time experiment. How long did it take you to work through all those test cases, considering you can do one at most every 15 minutes (without the parallel possibilities of using alts)?

"This one time, on patch day..."

@ccp_masterplan  |  Team Five-0: Rewriting the law
Eron Relentless
STARS of BABYLON ALLIANCE
#90 - 2012-08-02 11:18:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eron Relentless
Nevermind.
Keno Skir
#91 - 2012-08-02 11:38:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
sweetrock wrote:
There is no feesable way to protect from gankers, there are items such as ship scanners which tells gankers what your ships fitting is.

If your flying a small ship they will gank you in something small, if your in a freighter and they want to kill you, they come in numbers with larger ships.

You CANNOT defend yourself from gankers what so ever!


The reality is, gank ships are cheap and usuialy flown by alts ot people with massive amounts of isk in thier wallet, they try once and fail, they will come back again on principle and get the job done.


Well, not learned much in 5 months now have we?

Try TANKING the weakling mining ship instead of just fitting it for max payload. While i agree if you tanked like hell they could still take you out with several battleships or t3 b-cruisers, it would be at a MASSIVE loss to them and they will almost certainly not bother. Additionally next time Making sure you dont use stupidly expensive / faction mods is also a DEFENCE against ganks.

Or, and i realise this is extreme : Mine whilst aligned, like miners should in lowsec anyway. Then soon as u see a tornado u warp out instant like. This does however require you to be actually at the computer, which is where i expect the plan to fail for most miners Cool

I always kinda feel if someone gets ganked they sould have been paying more attention, and generally could have done much more to prevent it. When i fly a really expensive ship my mind is on the job generally, seems obvious Shocked

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-08-02 11:47:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Desturned
Eron Relentless wrote:
How to deal with gankers? Put as much pressure on CCP to reinforce mining ships and hasten CONCORD as possible. Which will to some extent happen in the next patch and hopefully in the following one aswell and the following one and the following one.

CCP is a company and EVE is a product they make money out of. Easy ganking leads to a lot of unhappy paying customers which eventually leads to a lot of cancelled subscriptions which leads do unhappy CCP. The more new players are among the cancelled subs the worst, because new players are much more interesting from business POV than a bitter ganking vet ready to drop the game anyway because of 1547859 other issues he constantly complains about.

Ganking is a part time hobby of in fact a relatively small group of bored fags trying to have fun by taking away someone elses fun or to manipulate the market by making mining harder and thus minerals => ships and mods more expensive. The latter being just another way of preventing less nerdy people with less playtime, less experience and less SP under their belts from having fun => leaving the game => less money for CCP.

Thus, gankers are not really a profitable customer segment for CCP - small in numbers, ready to switch to other, albeit less manly and skillzor activites, such as shooting at a PvP fitted ship, bored and bitter anyway - likely close to the end of their customer cycle.

CCP needs to pay their tech and their people and this is done by expanding customer base and selling more PLEX => through new customerseager to speed up their space careers, not through bored 0.0 *** alliances sitting on trillions of ISK hating everyone and everything in and about the game as they show us on the forums in daily bases. Therefore, CCP will more and more cater to the needs of average Joes who hate gankers and pay money to watch their shiny ships. Because its the new and middle aged pilots (who pay for their accounts and PvP/PvE with real money) who pay their bills and keep the business going, not a bunch of fat goons trying to control EVE out of their grandmothers basements.

Suck it up, leetboi failures. Time is on our side.


heh i think i counted 15 fallacies in your post there

"new players" - check
"grandmothers basements" - check

lol

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#93 - 2012-08-02 11:59:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:


I just decided to go test it for myself ...



Nice work, +1

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Aprudena Gist
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-08-02 12:04:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
how did the 15 second gank the ganker window all the sudden become 20 seconds?
Because it depends on where you are and how you're counting.

I just decided to go test it for myself and came to the conclusion that pretty much all numbers thrown around are correct… in their own way.

In a 1.0 system, the fight is over in anywhere between 2 and 13 seconds, depending on where CONCORD is at the moment (7 seconds if it's a “clean” system). The actual destruction of the criminal happens after 17–28 seconds, but that extra time is spend without being able to lock and shoot any target, without any drones, and without any cap. Some dexterous and well-timed cap-injecting might let you get off as many as 3 pulses of smartbombs in that period (but most likely it'll just be one or two).

In a 0.7 system, the base response time has increased to 10 seconds (if you pre-spawn CONCORD, it's somewhere in the region of 6 seconds; if you herd CONCORD away from the attack spot, it's up to 16 seconds), and the same 15 seconds of the criminal being jammed/neuted applies.

In a 0.5 system, the base time has increased to 18 seconds (pre-spawning CONCORD can reduce that to 9; herding CONCORD way adds another 6 seconds), and you're still looking at the same 15 seconds of criminal helplessness.

So, at the very most, in a prepped 0.5 system an attack can go on for as long as 24 seconds before the criminal ship is locked out of the fight by CONCORD, and the ship will not actually be destroyed until after 39 seconds (but again, those extra 15 seconds can only be used to activate smartbombs). Without preparation, and with no highslots wasted on low-damage weapons, you only have to survive for less than 20 seconds.

Oh, and the reason it takes 15 seconds for the ship to die is that the CONCORD cruisers are sillly-weak as far as damage goes: they deliver a combined alpha of 2,000 damage every 5 seconds, and with 15 seconds before the battleship finishes the job, they only get off 8,000 damage total… after that, the Police Commander sets your HP to zero so no amount of HP will save you.

These numbers are mostly correct and are in line with ours but you dont quite get the "hearding" part.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#95 - 2012-08-02 12:08:05 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
If you are a new player you really have nothing to worry about.

Your gear will not be expensive enough to make ganking worth it.


false

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Herr Hammer Draken
#96 - 2012-08-02 12:23:57 UTC
Best way to defend against ganking is to watch the gates and stations in system for gankers. Post a warning when you spot the gankers.

Gankers hate grinding sec status between ganks.

Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet"
Keno Skir
#97 - 2012-08-02 13:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
Eron Relentless wrote:
Suck it up, leetboi failures. Time is on our side.


Ultimate rubbish mate, and ironic how close you were to correct.. I think you will find that TIME is actually on the side of the vets here :) Easy space with instant police for criminals and no risk might make "new players" feel a little safer, but will lose players overall.

My reasoning is as follows :

Cocooning new players in a nice little safety web might make them tell their friends about EvE and as such new player retention will rise.
However old player subs will fall, and with good reason. These people grew up and survived in conditions harsher than you see now and have become good players due to te struggle. They expect you to go through the same thing or it makes their struggle seem invalid, secondly while they experienced hardship for so long it taught them to be hard and they want the same for you.

Whether these figures cancel each other out is neither here nor there and not really my point. My point is that the struggle, the constant risk and the focus on the long game is what made EvE special. I'm not projecting my own preferences onto eve, im only a year or so in and saying what i see. It is this complex, almost exclusive nature of EvE that i believe attracts most fo its long term members. People who like something to obsess over, adults who need an MMO you can play while having a job and still be at the same level as someone else your age (essentially, not including oh so important player skillz).

I suggest that while there may be 3 new pilots ready to join a friendly game to every 1 sociopath eve-ite, i think it's fairly obvious which one is most likely to stay. You see if eve becomes safe and standard like every other MMO, you can expect a massive new player trial boost since all of a sudden it's accessible and not too scary to bother with. But these players will not stay, or at least are far less likely to. Conformist MMO players jump from MMO to MMO as they max skills / game gets tedious and repetitive and move on to another. Not so true of EvE's classic punter :)

The people who will really enjoy EvE as it is are lesser in number than all the "just got bored of wow and want next weeks thing" guys, but i really believe it is the smaller more specialized crew who are actually most likely to STAY.

Don't be fooled into thinking 2000 subs from new players are worth more than 1000 subs from vets, they aren't. Vets have a proven record of sticking with it. Purely by definition 99% of the other crowd will get bored and move on within a month when they find out they cant be ultra L33T in 30 days like they were in STAR ******* WARZ.

Sorry :D, kept it civil almost to the end :P

TL;DR : 2000 new player subs are worth less than 500 vet subs, since new players will generally quit after 2 months, and vets will keep paying till the end of eve :) Get your figures adjusted if you can :D

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Doddy
Excidium.
#98 - 2012-08-02 13:59:10 UTC
Maddy Joringer wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
As soon as the ganker shoots you in highsec, they get a GCC, which allows other players to shoot them for 15 minutes, meaning any player who is nearby that wants to shoot back at the ganker can go right ahead. CONCORD just prevents you from pre-emptively shooting at the ganker without having the same set of consequences they do when they gank.



Any ganker which shoots me in highsec is gonna get blown up by concord or me .. Gankers are suicide squads..the Trick is to preemptively attack them.... there is no point shooting a suicide bomber after he has blown himself up....

Hence.... the game mechanics favours the gankers too much and makes miners in high sec totally helpless.... CCP should fix this....


Well, most gankers become outlaws very quickly meaning you can shoot them any time. Once they start an attack they are also a viable target for the 20 odd seconds it takes for concord to show up. Currently 1 sebo cruiser can cause casual gankers quit a lot of angst just by ganking or even jamming them.

Or you could war dec them of course.
Doddy
Excidium.
#99 - 2012-08-02 14:02:14 UTC
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:
Best way to defend against ganking is to watch the gates and stations in system for gankers. Post a warning when you spot the gankers.

Gankers hate grinding sec status between ganks.


Why would gankers need sec?
Eron Relentless
STARS of BABYLON ALLIANCE
#100 - 2012-08-02 14:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eron Relentless
Nevermind.