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ISK Faucets and Sinks for Dummies
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Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-06-03 15:07:31 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
now, given the volume of market transactions, is the 1.5% really so insignificant? 1% isn't much on a million isk transaction, but 1% of a million of those transactions is huge. Its not significant to individuals, but its very significant to the economy as a whole.

I can't help feeling that the 50% increase to taxation is still far too low. As you say, it's definitely significant to individuals once large volumes are taken into account, but as an intended ISK sink attempt to curb inflation it's ineffective. The drone bounty addition and even simply training trade skills negates or at least minimises the sink aspect even further. At this point, i'm not even sure a 200% increase would make a huge dent beyond annoying people.

Hopefully CCP has some other ideas in the system other than just modifying existing sinks.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2012-06-03 15:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Roisin Saoirse wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
now, given the volume of market transactions, is the 1.5% really so insignificant? 1% isn't much on a million isk transaction, but 1% of a million of those transactions is huge. Its not significant to individuals, but its very significant to the economy as a whole.
I can't help feeling that the 50% increase to taxation is still far too low. As you say, it's definitely significant to individuals once large volumes are taken into account, but as an intended ISK sink attempt to curb inflation it's ineffective. The drone bounty addition and even simply training trade skills negates or at least minimises the sink aspect even further. At this point, i'm not even sure a 200% increase would make a huge dent beyond annoying people.

Hopefully CCP has some other ideas in the system other than just modifying existing sinks.
The last set of data released showed that the old 1% transaction tax translated into 50–60bn ISK sunk per day. Presumably, that's up to 75–90% now. It's still a rather insignificant amount compared to the 2 trillion injected, and even to the 1 trillion net injection per day.

Or, to put them on the same scale, it's a 0.025 trillion increase in ISK sunk, which would reduce the old net injection of ~1 trillion to ~0.9975 trillion ≈ still 1 trillion.

So, yeah…
Bossy Lady
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#43 - 2012-06-03 15:23:17 UTC
~100B a day is still a good and useful ISK sink though. It would be good to see a further variation with sec status.

Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M.
Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-06-03 15:30:04 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Truth is ISK is just a unit of account. It's just a "middleman" with no intrinsic value in and of itself, to allow the efficient exchange of actual, material wealth (i.e. minerals and the things made with them).

People who speak about ISK being the issue are missing the forest for the trees. The primary issue for balancing the EVE economy lies in balancing material faucets and sinks.

*technically, virtual material wealth

The issue with the faucet vs sink imbalance is that the amount of ISK in the economy is increasing out of proportion to the number of new people coming in to the game. When this happens, inflation of player-traded in-game assets increases because the wealth of the already-established population stockpiles and they are then willing and able to pay more for items that are in competition.

Eventually this would lead to 'pricing out' certain players (especially newcomers who don't already have an ISK stockpile) out of the market, and render certain activities worthless. An example CCP Soundwave gave for this is the broken economy of UO, where the PvE-based income is so vastly out of proportion to the cost of goods on the player-traded market that it's just nonsense. It would be a utopia for RMTers.

Price fluctuation within the market due to player trends and manipulation is fine, it's all part of the game and is healthy. It also tends to be temporary. Artificial manipulation of the market due to disproportionate ISK injections is a bad thing and unless specifically tackled, is not only permanent but also has the potential to snowball.

Dr. Eyjo's already says he's getting concerned and looking into this though, so hopefully there will be some progress before too long.
Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-06-03 16:20:53 UTC
My goodness someone with a grasp of economics in Eve. Will this madness never cease?.

Thankyou for pointing out whats going on with the Eve economy inteligently and simply.
Pyramus Romanus
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-06-03 18:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Pyramus Romanus
I had a quick question regarding ISK faucets and sinks - the OP has cleared up that considerably - thanks! My question was regarding mineral sales - when I sell minerals in a station, am I selling to a sink fund which takes them out of service, or are they bought by other players/the corp who own the station?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#47 - 2012-06-03 18:15:31 UTC
Pyramus Romanus wrote:
I had a quick question regarding ISK faucets and sinks - the OP has cleared up that considerably - thanks! My question was regarding mineral sales - when I sell minerals in a station, am I selling to a sink fund which takes them out of service, or are they bought by other players/the corp who own the station?

You are selling to a player.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#48 - 2012-06-03 18:24:11 UTC
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

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Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#49 - 2012-06-03 18:25:01 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#50 - 2012-06-03 18:26:18 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.


Its a faucet none the less.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Price Check Aisle3
#51 - 2012-06-03 18:27:59 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.

Its a faucet none the less.

what?
  • Karl Hobb IATS
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#52 - 2012-06-03 18:41:45 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.


Its a faucet none the less.

Mineral faucet, which we have plenty of sinks for. Namely, every time anything dies.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-06-03 19:18:25 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Tippia wrote:
Put another way, using the standard copypasta…

Faucets:
  • NPC bounties
  • NPC buy orders
  • Agent rewards: Mission rewards, Mission time bonuses, Incursion rewards
  • Insurance payout
  • GM actions: Reimbursement for lost pods
  • Character creation

Sinks:
  • Market taxes & fees: Broker fees, Sales tax
  • NPC sell orders
  • NPC station services: Repairs, Jump clone installation, Medical clone installation/upgrade/station change, Science and industry slot rental, Ship insurance
  • NPC station office fees: Rent, Impound penalties
  • Wardecs
  • Sovereignty fees
  • PI fees: Building PI structures, Import/export tax (from NPC-owned customs offices)
  • Corp & alliance fees: Corp creation, Alliance creation, Alliance upkeep, Creating/awarding medals, Corp registry ads
  • Agent fees: (Certain) LP store items, Locator agent services, Courier missions w/ deposits
  • CSPA Charges
  • Smuggling fines
  • GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
  • Character deletion


Nice list, however it needs an Addendum for : Courier missions w/ deposits

That should read = Failed Agent missions w/ deposits

The mission doesn't necessarily have to be a Courier mission, also if the Agent mission with the Deposit is completed, the player get's that ISK back.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Headerman1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2012-06-03 20:23:07 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.


Its a faucet none the less.

Mineral faucet, which we have plenty of sinks for. Namely, every time anything dies.


I think this is what i was trying to explain earlier... if the isk income in general is rising out of proportion to new players, then new players may be looking at mineral isk incomes more and more (the black market...?)

If mining was easier and cheaper to do in high sec, it would not be hard for new players to simply bypass some of the isk taps needs, reducing demand, reducing prices on the market, therefore reducing the need to get the isk tap flowing as much
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-06-03 21:45:55 UTC
If anything, it seems that pvp would actually be an isk faucet. When your ship blows up you get an insurance payout which is from an npc entity, therefore adding isk to the game.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#56 - 2012-06-03 21:57:46 UTC
Headerman1 wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
Yeah its amazing how many people think mining of any sort is an isk faucet when in reality its a sink.

Its barely even a sink. There is a small amount of isk removed from the system due to sales tax, and thats it.


Its a faucet none the less.

Mineral faucet, which we have plenty of sinks for. Namely, every time anything dies.


I think this is what i was trying to explain earlier... if the isk income in general is rising out of proportion to new players, then new players may be looking at mineral isk incomes more and more (the black market...?)

If mining was easier and cheaper to do in high sec, it would not be hard for new players to simply bypass some of the isk taps needs, reducing demand, reducing prices on the market, therefore reducing the need to get the isk tap flowing as much

Problem with that is that they can't impact the highend market, which is what will keep prices fairly high.

Only place lowends are very valuable at all is out in null, because mining veldspar in nullsec is ********.

tbh, I think the low tier T1 mining barges should be made entirely with low ends, same with mining cruisers. That way the new guys can do like we did way back when, and mine for their ships directly instead of mining for the isk to buy ships. Keeps the a bit safer from market manipulation.

Combat ships should have a fair number of highends tho, to prevent people getting sucked into the mining for combat trap, and instead funneled into mission running to earn their ships.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-06-03 22:17:44 UTC
Roisin Saoirse wrote:
[quote=Tallian Saotome]Hopefully CCP has some other ideas in the system other than just modifying existing sinks.


Have NPCs sell more things:

  • Tech 2 BPOs in loyalty stores
  • BPCs of meta 1-5 items
  • meta 1-5 items
  • Insurance for what's in your ship's hold (good for a day, 25%-50% of market value payout depending on sec status)
  • Insurance for your cybernetic implants
  • Get rid of mining and have all mats come into the game via NPCs in market (unlikely but possible)
  • Use ISK to improve sec status or faction status
  • NPC casinos/lotteries that take more ISK out of the game than it puts in
  • Vanity items (non AUR outfits or hair styles)
  • ISK to use warp gates based on ship size (but give all ships the ability to change systems without it)
  • Concord can fine players for podding in non-null, if you can't afford the fine you get podded and your clone is wasted (lost skill points)
  • Sell faction ships and items

I can has blogging skills!
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#58 - 2012-06-03 22:21:00 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Roisin Saoirse wrote:
[quote=Tallian Saotome]Hopefully CCP has some other ideas in the system other than just modifying existing sinks.


Have NPCs sell more things:

  • Tech 2 BPOs in loyalty stores
  • BPCs of meta 1-5 items
  • meta 1-5 items
  • Insurance for what's in your ship's hold (good for a day, 25%-50% of market value payout depending on sec status)
  • Insurance for your cybernetic implants
  • Get rid of mining and have all mats come into the game via NPCs in market (unlikely but possible)
  • Use ISK to improve sec status or faction status
  • NPC casinos/lotteries that take more ISK out of the game than it puts in
  • Vanity items (non AUR outfits or hair styles)
  • ISK to use warp gates based on ship size (but give all ships the ability to change systems without it)
  • Concord can fine players for podding in non-null, if you can't afford the fine you get podded and your clone is wasted (lost skill points)
  • Sell faction ships and items

90% of that runs exactly counter to what they want to do with the markets tho. They want everything to be player made and player sold.

Oh, meta 5 means T2.

And T2 BPOs will NEVER come back, you can thank BoB and T20 for that one.

Hell, everything on that list is pretty dumb, tbh, other than possible NPC lottos/casinos.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Roisin Saoirse
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-06-03 23:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Roisin Saoirse
Linna Excel wrote:
Have NPCs sell more things:

  • Tech 2 BPOs in loyalty stores
  • BPCs of meta 1-5 items
  • meta 1-5 items
  • Insurance for what's in your ship's hold (good for a day, 25%-50% of market value payout depending on sec status)
  • Insurance for your cybernetic implants
  • Get rid of mining and have all mats come into the game via NPCs in market (unlikely but possible)
  • Use ISK to improve sec status or faction status
  • NPC casinos/lotteries that take more ISK out of the game than it puts in
  • Vanity items (non AUR outfits or hair styles)
  • ISK to use warp gates based on ship size (but give all ships the ability to change systems without it)
  • Concord can fine players for podding in non-null, if you can't afford the fine you get podded and your clone is wasted (lost skill points)
  • Sell faction ships and items

T2 BPOs are a contentious issue, they shouldn't even exist imo but maybe that's just me being biased. NPCs definitely shouldn't sell them, as it would probably destroy the BPC market.

One thing I really like is the idea of ISK-based monetisation of the NEX store and the previously-proposed Incarna activities like betting. Either allowing Aurum to be purchasable with ISK, or just ditching Aurum and allowing us to buy Nex vanity items and as you say hair styles/makeup/tattoos, even ship skins or logos etc., from NPCs with ISK rather than Aurum or LP would be a step in the right direction as it would be a pure ISK sink. In fact, removing items from the LP stores altogether and simply making them standings-based NPC-sold might be a short-term solution since a lot of people (myself included) chain missions in order to cash in LPs to acquire LP items for selling. Even blitzing, those bounties add up after a few hundred L4 missions.

Getting rid of mining would be a bad idea though, in fact blanket removal of any activity would be a mistake imo. The wholesale economy should be player-driven, there's no room for NPC replacement of such fundamental things as mineral or ice product supply. Remember that there're no stations for accessing the market in wormhole systems, so manufacturing in them could be problematic without mining as even a supplementary source of minerals. Corps and alliances should be able to become as self-sufficient as possible, and shouldn't be reliant on NPCs for fundamental basics.

CONCORD fines for illegal actions... hmm, actually that isn't a terrible idea if well implemented. Though tbh that probably wouldn't have a noticeable impact on the economy since in comparison to other activities, illegal ganking and podding is fairly uncommon - it just gets a lot of attention.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-06-03 23:06:00 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
90% of that runs exactly counter to what they want to do with the markets tho. They want everything to be player made and player sold.


Yet there are still some things that can't be player made so obviously CCP failed at what they wanted. It's a logical proposition to for them to reconsider how the markets work. Since 70% of the pop is hi sec mission runners for a functioning economy, you need to get rid of all that ISK.

There needs to be sinks for the ISK, you aren't going to have them in the current system. The only other option would be to scrap ISK entirely and go to a bartering system.




I can has blogging skills!