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P.O.W.s

Author
Ugleb
Jotunn Risi
#21 - 2011-10-02 10:44:07 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kazzzi wrote:
You have my word.


The word of a race-traitor is meaningless.


I think this may be the first time I have heard an Amarrian use that term, are we rubbing off on you Rodj?

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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2011-10-02 13:12:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Ston Momaki wrote:
We even have a detention center where prisoners are treated humanely while waiting proper, non-capital judgment.


Wait... what ? You hold prisoners ? On whose behalf ? Under which laws ? Yours ?


Gaufres wrote:
I am glad someone brought up this problem. I have a number of prisoners who I do not feel it is proper to just turn loose without a hearing. Some were ex-slaves who were promptly freed as soon as it could be verified that they had committed no crimes in Caldari/Amarr territory. Others have been very uncooperative and are being held until such time it can be determined just who they are and what, if any, crimes they have committed.

I am holding them at my own expense since I do not feel they will receive a fair and unbiased trial at their current location. If anyone else does have a satisifactory answer to this problem, I would like to be kept informed.



Uh... same here. Why are you keeping prisoners in the first place ? What did they do ? Whose laws did they broke ?

Am I the only one wondering if some capsuleers are starting to think they are gods ruling over mortals ?
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#23 - 2011-10-02 13:24:08 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Ston Momaki wrote:
We even have a detention center where prisoners are treated humanely while waiting proper, non-capital judgment.


Wait... what ? You hold prisoners ? On whose behalf ? Under which laws ? Yours ?


Gaufres wrote:
I am glad someone brought up this problem. I have a number of prisoners who I do not feel it is proper to just turn loose without a hearing. Some were ex-slaves who were promptly freed as soon as it could be verified that they had committed no crimes in Caldari/Amarr territory. Others have been very uncooperative and are being held until such time it can be determined just who they are and what, if any, crimes they have committed.

I am holding them at my own expense since I do not feel they will receive a fair and unbiased trial at their current location. If anyone else does have a satisifactory answer to this problem, I would like to be kept informed.



Uh... same here. Why are you keeping prisoners in the first place ? What did they do ? Whose laws did they broke ?

Am I the only one wondering if some capsuleers are starting to think they are gods ruling over mortals ?


Ms. Farel,
Perhaps I can shed a little light on your concerns. The Disciples of Ston happened upon five "Slavers" who were jettisoned by a pilot along with a group of slaves. The whole group was rescued from death in space. The former slaves were taken to one of our Matriculation Centers. We didn't know what to do with the slave traders. We didn't want to just hand them over and later find our that they have been executed. We are generally opposed to the death penalty. We also didn't want to see them condemned to multi-generational slavery. So, what to do? We asked a lot of questions of other pilots and received no definitive answers. So, we put the word out to Concord in Yulai that we had these criminals in a detention center that we set up in Korama. We asked Concord to please come and get these prisoners. As Capsuleers, we fall under Concord's jurisdiction so we pleaded with Concord to help us out. Concord has yet to respond, so the five criminal slave traders remain at our facility in Korama. Ston may have given the sense that we run a prison. We don't. We kept these criminals because we didn't want to see them executed or their generations enslaved. So again we say, "Concord, please send someone to pick up these criminals." All we want is assurance that they will be treated humanely, not executed, or condemned to generational slavery.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#24 - 2011-10-02 14:33:11 UTC
Of course CONCORD are not going to answer. Their jurisdiction over capsuleers does not extend to what happen outside or inside of your ship, but only to space objects affiliated to capsuleers. Cargo, for example, is only ruled by local laws. Said local laws are only enforced in space by custom officers, and probably in non capsuleer districts in stations and colonies.

Legally, you are in your right to do so.

The only thing I find interesting is that you :

- do not agree with any of the legal systems in place, or do not trust them to judge the slavers you are refering to.
- have the power to do so.

Which leads to a lot of interesting questions on the capsuleers-mortals inter relations.
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#25 - 2011-10-02 19:30:36 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Of course CONCORD are not going to answer. Their jurisdiction over capsuleers does not extend to what happen outside or inside of your ship, but only to space objects affiliated to capsuleers. Cargo, for example, is only ruled by local laws. Said local laws are only enforced in space by custom officers, and probably in non capsuleer districts in stations and colonies.

Legally, you are in your right to do so.

The only thing I find interesting is that you :

- do not agree with any of the legal systems in place, or do not trust them to judge the slavers you are refering to.
- have the power to do so.

Which leads to a lot of interesting questions on the capsuleers-mortals inter relations.


You raise important questions and we don't want to be presumptuous and arrogant in this matter while at the same time, we want to live in accord with our values as an organization. We are open to your suggestions and those of anyone else.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2011-10-02 21:44:30 UTC
I have none to offer, sadly. I see no basic wrongdoing in your acts or their legitimacy. But I might have missed an important point. This is why I find the subject interesting, because I doubt a lot of us have already spent time to think deeply about it. And it is quite philosophicaly related, too.
Kazzzi
Heathen Legion
Iron Men of the Hood
#27 - 2011-10-03 00:35:03 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Kazzzi wrote:
You have my word.


The word of a race-traitor is meaningless.


I know right? Worth a shot though.

If you are all going to take such a hyper-defensive stance as usual and let your loyal imperial soldiers and sailors rot in my prisons, then that's on you pal.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2011-10-03 04:52:47 UTC
If i was ever to negotiate a POS exchange it would never include you Kazzzi... ever...

Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#29 - 2011-10-03 18:34:16 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:

By far the vast majority of prisoners I have found are unidentified, likely former slaves. My intent is to return these to their former masters, but simply identifying them is difficult.



Call me crazy, but aren't there rules of engagement regarding POWs? Specifically, that you're not allowed to sell your prisoners into slavery?

Then again, I suppose I shouldn't expect real benevolence from Amarr.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-10-03 18:39:49 UTC
Two important things, first as a capsuleer I must follow concord law, which I am shocked to learned has absolutely no previsions regarding this.

Second, I wouldn't be selling the slaves but rather returning them to their rightful holder. I still obey Amarrian law and that is standard practice for recovering lost slaves.

I plan on turning over many whom I cannot find their origonal owners to the 24th for proper sentencing and emprisoning. This way I can focus on what matters rather than this administrative problem. My chief of staff suggested I just vent them out the airlock, he doesn't have a particular fondness for rebels; even if he meant it in jest.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#31 - 2011-10-03 19:00:46 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:
Two important things, first as a capsuleer I must follow concord law, which I am shocked to learned has absolutely no previsions regarding this.

Second, I wouldn't be selling the slaves but rather returning them to their rightful holder. I still obey Amarrian law and that is standard practice for recovering lost slaves.

I plan on turning over many whom I cannot find their origonal owners to the 24th for proper sentencing and emprisoning. This way I can focus on what matters rather than this administrative problem. My chief of staff suggested I just vent them out the airlock, he doesn't have a particular fondness for rebels; even if he meant it in jest.


You called some of your prisoners 'former slaves'; that means that they were, at one point, slaves -- and now they are not. You are actively sending captured POWs to enslavement.

ConCord has made policy on the treatment of prisoners of war: while incarcerated, POWs are not to be subjected to outrages against personal dignity, in particular humiliating or degrading treatment.

I would be very surprised if this doesn't spark a political incident with your prisoners' homeworlds.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2011-10-03 22:24:28 UTC
Do you have any sources for this, out of curiosity ?
Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#33 - 2011-10-04 18:50:38 UTC
The Disciples of Ston are willing to present yet another option. Ms. Goldcore, you mentioned in a previous post, "My chief of staff suggested I just vent them out the airlock, he doesn't have a particular fondness for rebels; even if he meant it in jest." I am sure it was indeed in jest but it brings out an important point about war. In war, shortcuts can and are taken and sometimes such things are said in seriousness and not in jest. While I appreciate Ms. Goldcore's humane treatment of prisoners, I do not assume that all warring parties practice the same.

We would like to offer our detention center as an in between point for P.O.W.s while conflicting governments and pilots decide what to do. When officials with proper documentation are ready to transfer the prisoners to their own facilities, we would hand them over. We would also serve a place where prisoners could be held, be treated well, and be kept safe while prisoner exchanges are being negotiated.

We realize that busy pilots often do have the time nor inclination to properly house and care for prisoners. We would like to offer our services to any who have prisoners but do wish to administrate their care. Any disciple can be contacted if there is interest.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2011-10-04 19:21:25 UTC
I have already turned a majority of them over to the 24th for them to handle, and will likely continue to do so in the future.

Although I am sure your facilities would be fine, I am not comfortable turning over criminals to a non-Amarrian source. Simply a security issue, and I would have little more than your word on a few too many of things. Still, I appreciate the offer.
Jason Galente
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2011-10-04 19:45:43 UTC
Why are Minmatar milita pilots still referred to by some as rebels? The Amarr Empire itself recognizes the legitimate sovereignty of the Minmatar Republic, but apparently some of its subjects are a little slow and haven't quite caught on yet.

Only the liberty of the individual assures the prosperity of the whole. And this foundation must be defended.

At any cost

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2011-10-04 23:20:51 UTC
Thgil Goldcore wrote:


I appreciate any advice in this matter and prefer those knowledgeable in Amarrian Law to assist.


Sister Goldcore,

If the prisoners of war serve no immediate purpose, such as for a prisoner exchange, then you should ask a military tribunal to judge their crimes and possibly have them entered into slavery with you or another proper holder.

In this manner they would be able to pay reparations for the damage they caused, but also recieve proper food, housing and even education and possibly a family life, something currently denied to them as prisoner. Especially since this war might drag on for quite some time, it would be more humane to have them enslaved instead of holding them indefinitely in a P.O.W. camp.

As slaves, they do not lose their capacity to be exchanged for Amarrian P.O.W.'s should the owner feel so inclined to do so.


Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#37 - 2011-10-05 16:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Astrid Stjerna
Merdaneth wrote:

If the prisoners of war serve no immediate purpose, such as for a prisoner exchange, then you should ask a military tribunal to judge their crimes and possibly have them entered into slavery with you or another proper holder.


While we are] in agreement that a proper impartial military tribunal should be convened for prisoners of war, taking POWs as slaves blatanty violates the rules of engagement.

If you choose to proceed with this action, you risk political backlash from the soldiers' homeworlds.

I hope you're prepared.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....

Edaine Numenor
Numenor Benevolent Holdings
#38 - 2011-10-05 18:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Edaine Numenor
From the last several posts, I can see that Prisoner of War Convention is very much needed. Talk about P.O.W.s, slaves, executions etc only serves to inflame the hostilities that prolong war. The Disciples of Ston offer a temporary solution until such a convention can be convened. As a Humanitarian, non-warring organization, we offer a means of temporary detention for prisoners obtained n battle. The Sisters could do the same, but no one from their organization has spoken up regarding this issue.

Liberating slaves wherever, whenever, and however I can.

Jaana Venser
Doomheim
#39 - 2011-10-05 19:47:24 UTC
Edaine Numenor wrote:
From the last several posts, I can see that Prisoner of War Convention is very much needed.


*Jaana opens the channel after lurking for several long sessions*

Good afternoon, sir. Lieutenant Jaana Venser, Caldari State War Academy.

From the course of these discussions, it appears that the creation of such conventions are, indeed, in order.

After the discussion of this matter with my chain of command, I have been authorized to begin proceedings to draft a document for the purposes of formalizing the rules of engagement regarding the treatment of prisoners of war, the duties and responsibilities of they and their captors, and the proper procedure for repatriation and potential prisoner exchange.

If able, I will also include regulations pursuant to the detainment of political prisoners, the treatment of civilians in wartime, and an 'acceptable target' strategy that (I hope) will outline ROE regarding the treatment of civilians and non-combatants.

When the project has progressed to a suitable degree, I will make a further post outlining the document and its goals.
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#40 - 2011-10-07 18:16:53 UTC
Huh.

Normally, I keep Amarrian POWs safe, sound, and well fed, and try to trade for captured Republic service personell....

Always thought most did the same.

Pity. Once again, the Empire proves me wrong.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"

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