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High Security Miner Survival Guide
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2012-06-03 10:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Alara IonStorm wrote:

Well now that I know it can be tanked to take on the absolutely Uber 0.0 Rats well...


Per their description: "They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space. The Hulk is, bar none, the most efficient mining vessel available."
Uber or not, that's what they're designed for.

Quote:

If Miners choose to give up every bit of utility on their ship they can survive a Destroyer in Highsec. Good thing every ship doesn't need to give up all utility or Mining isn't the only thing that would drop by half.


Does the Hulk's strip miners no longer cycle when you fit a tank to it? I didn't realize that. You're absuolutely right. Buff Hulks, let their strip miners cycle while tanked! (What's that? Really? Oh..) It has come to my attention that a Hulk's strip miners still cycle and in fact still mine more ore than a Covetor even when they fit a tank. I must apologize for my outburst.

Quote:

Scimatar needs 7 Fitting Mods... Sure with its 2 Rig Slots and 4 Lows.
A Cruiser with a Battleship AB needs extra fitting...
Some AHAC Zealots use a fitting mod with a Battleship sized Plate and the largest Guns. Give the Hulk the ability to use a 1600mm Plate and you can make that argument.

Truth is the Hulk has 2 Low Slots and 2 Rig Slots so if you fit a tank that is all you are fitting unlike combat ships that are rutinely fit with other stuff like Damage Mods and DCU's. What is more it is a tiny Medium Shield Extender it is trying to fit.

Scimitar still needs to fit half of its slots with ebil fitting mods to do its job at all. A Hulk needs only to fill 3 of it's 11 slots with fitting mods to fit a beastmode tank. 3 of 11 vs 7 of 15. Sounds like the Scimi's worse off to me.

Those tank mods on combat ships still take up slots that we'd rather fill with Damage mods, just like Hulk pilots would like to fit Yield mods in their lows. Tank is not everything, it's a tradeoff in every case.

The Hulk has 2 lows, 2 rigs, and a bunch of mids so that you have to CHOOSE between tank and yield.

Quote:

RubyPorto wrote:

The hulk needs fitting mods to fit its maximum tank so that there's an actual choice to be made between tanking it and going for yield (if you can have both, not having both is stupid, not a choice).

All ships should follow your fitting theory. No Damage Mods if you fit a tank, one or the ther. The Hurricane wants a Large Shield Extender and Damage Mods... Not if RubyPorto has anything to say about it.

Gankers seem to literally freak out at the concept of a MSE fitted easily to a Hulk like it can be to Destroyer like the world will end if it could be. Choice of no utility should not even be an argument in this.


A hurricane, as one of the close range BCs I mentioned, doesn't need to make as many compromises. But it can't excel in any specialized role like the Hulk does.

The Hulk is a specialized yield machine. Tanking it takes some effort. *SHOCK*. Tanking a Cerberus (another specialized ship) is similarly nightmarish.

Also, a Destroyer can fit an MLUII if and only if it gives up a significant amount of damage to do so (see any MSEII Catalysts pulling ganks?)

You have to choose between max yield and max tank. *GASP*
Or you could ADAPT one of the 16 other suggestions I make in threads like this. Most don't require you to give up your precious pair of MLUIIs.

Gankers have adapted to the mechanics of the game. Why shouldn't miners be expected to adapt to those same mechanics?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-06-03 10:06:15 UTC
The best part is most of the ganked Hulks don't even use MLU's, they're going for full cargo so they can warp back to station with full holds less often.

That's right. During Hulkageddon, when people will try to kill their ships specifically, they are so against having to even seek out one other person to fly with that they'll fit mods that actually WEAKEN their ship.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#23 - 2012-06-03 10:07:39 UTC
Nomad I wrote:
Even Hulks with 30k EHP can be popped with only 4 catalysts. HighSec will never be save.


4 t2 fit Catalysts. 5 T1 Catalysts (5m Isk ea). Add Shield Gang boosts and you force the gankers to use 6 Catalysts, meaning the best case scenario is a loss (30m in catalysts to get 10m in loot, and 10m in salvage, assuming the miner's orca doesn't scoop first).

Add some RR to the field and that rises to 10-15 catalysts, or 6 Tornadoes at a massive loss.

Tanking prevents profit motivated ganks. Aside from eliminating ganking, nothing will get rid of the other kinds of ganks.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Alara IonStorm
#24 - 2012-06-03 10:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
RubyPorto wrote:

Does the Hulk's strip miners no longer cycle when you fit a tank to it? I didn't realize that. You're absuolutely right. Buff Hulks, let their strip miners cycle while tanked! (What's that? Really? Oh..) It has come to my attention that a Hulk's strip miners still cycle and in fact still mine more ore than a Covetor even when they fit a tank. I must apologize for my outburst.

Utility has nothing to do with base Strip Miner Cycle.

I accept your apology. CCP you should listen to this repentant poster and buff Hulk fitting right now.
Quote:

Scimitar still needs to fit half of its slots with ebil fitting mods to do its job at all. A Hulk needs only to fill 3 of it's 11 slots with fitting mods to fit a beastmode tank. 3 of 11 vs 7 of 15. Sounds like the Scimi's worse off to me.

Lol 7 of 15...

Quote:

Those tank mods on combat ships still take up slots that we'd rather fill with Damage mods, just like Hulk pilots would like to fit Yield mods in their lows. Tank is not everything, it's a tradeoff in every case.

The Hulk has 2 lows, 2 rigs, and a bunch of mids so that you have to CHOOSE between tank and yield.

Yet you shouldn't have too.

Quote:

A hurricane, as one of the close range BCs I mentioned, doesn't need to make as many compromises. But it can't excel in any specialized role like the Hulk does.

The underlined is all that needs mentioning.

Quote:

You have to choose between max yield and max tank. *GASP*

Yes and CCP should buff the Hulks fitting to fix this and make a Medium Shield Extender II Fittable on a Hulk without needing an MAPC.

Make gankers have to put a bit more effort when it becomes standard fitting.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-06-03 10:22:44 UTC
Of all the ridiculous arguments that have come out of this, the suggestion that somehow a Hulk's yield is totally worthless when fit for tank is the best one. Even a fully yield-fit Covetor (which would need a 3% CPU implant along with 2 of the new CPU boosting rigs to even fit at all) has a lower yield than a Hulk without a single MLU in sight.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
The Groundskeeper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-06-03 10:23:56 UTC
And with that series of non sequitors and ad hominems, Alara Ionstorm yields the argument...
Alara IonStorm
#27 - 2012-06-03 10:27:11 UTC
The Groundskeeper wrote:
And with that series of non sequitors and ad hominems, Alara Ionstorm yields the argument...

That's okay when the Hulk gets the 20 extra grids to fit the Medium Extender and the T1 Mining Barges get a few more mids I will yield whatever.

Hopefully gankers won't just give up now that the game is very slightly harder.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-06-03 10:33:14 UTC
Ahahaha yeah, the Hulk is "just" going to get a base 57% powergrid increase. See? The miners just want small, simple tweaks!

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#29 - 2012-06-03 10:35:57 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Ahahaha yeah, the Hulk is "just" going to get a base 57% powergrid increase. See? The miners just want small, simple tweaks!

When 20 PG is a 57% Increase then it is time for a second look at the ship.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-06-03 10:39:15 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
When 20 PG is a 57% Increase then it is time for a second look at the ship.


Nope, it just means you misunderstood what it was ever supposed to be used for. As I said before, even with a full tank, it still outmines every other ship in the game. Whining for more grid for shields (hint: you're going to need CPU as well if you expect anyone to fit a tank with MLU's) so you can outmine other ships by even more while fitting a tank is a silly request.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#31 - 2012-06-03 10:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Snow Axe wrote:
[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Nope, it just means you misunderstood what it was ever supposed to be used for. As I said before, even with a full tank, it still outmines every other ship in the game. Whining for more grid for shields (hint: you're going to need CPU as well if you expect anyone to fit a tank with MLU's) so you can outmine other ships by even more while fitting a tank is a silly request.

1. Of course it does it is the best mining ship in the game.
2. No it isn't it is the best mining ship in the game and it deserves a good tank.

Medium Shield Extender without fitting mods seems about right fr a 200mil T2 Battlecruiser sized ship. Enough to provide the protection and utility it deserves.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#32 - 2012-06-03 10:49:11 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


1) What rules are Gankers breaking?



To be honest, did nano ship break rules? Did un-probeable T3 ships break rules?

Imho this HAG campaign has many levels of retardation but the biggest one is to try way too hard.

You know, the frog jumps off the pan if you don't boil it slow.

If they kept a steady amount of kills you can be sure CCP will never do anything, but if they keep boasting 8500 ships a month basically it's a call for a nerf to something.

Whatever something will be nerfed, it will ruin the game to casual suicide gankers so THEY will lose their fun, while the 0.0 seccers will just jump clone back to their home and keep PvPing.

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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-06-03 10:52:52 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Medium Shield Extender without fitting mods seems about right fr a 200mil T2 Battlecruiser sized ship. Enough to provide the protection and utility it deserves.


Go ahead and keep repeating that while you expect CCP to make superhuman buffs to an already top-of-the-line ship's CPU and PG. I wouldn't hold out hope, though.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#34 - 2012-06-03 10:55:18 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Medium Shield Extender without fitting mods seems about right fr a 200mil T2 Battlecruiser sized ship. Enough to provide the protection and utility it deserves.


Go ahead and keep repeating that while you expect CCP to make superhuman buffs to an already top-of-the-line ship's CPU and PG. I wouldn't hold out hope, though.

This just in MSE easily fit on Hulk = Superhuman...

Well I guess it would probably kill more GSF Ships then the Titans did so depending on how you look at it.

Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#35 - 2012-06-03 11:01:44 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Nope, it just means you misunderstood what it was ever supposed to be used for. As I said before, even with a full tank, it still outmines every other ship in the game. Whining for more grid for shields (hint: you're going to need CPU as well if you expect anyone to fit a tank with MLU's) so you can outmine other ships by even more while fitting a tank is a silly request.

1. Of course it does it is the best mining ship in the game.


So why are you complaining? Fully tank fit, it outmines every other ship in the game.

You can CHOOSE to SACRIFICE that tank in order to eeke out just a little more Yield.


Saying that a Hulk should be able to fit all the Yield it wants without sacrificing any of its Tank is like saying a Damnation should be able to fit to deal 1000 DPS while tanking its normal 400k EHP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-06-03 11:02:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Alara IonStorm wrote:
This just in MSE easily fit on Hulk = Superhuman...


It's a huge increase in base powergrid to do something it can already do with fitting mods so it can __________. I'm not even sure what the blank is. It sure as hell isn't MLU's, as that'd put the CPU way over the top. Cargo expanders maybe, but the notion of making a shield tank better just so you can make it not-great by taking out the DC and chop your hull HP's by 1/3 is...how do I put this? Probably not worth a developer's time, wouldn't you think?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#37 - 2012-06-03 11:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
RubyPorto wrote:

So why are you complaining? Fully tank fit, it outmines every other ship in the game.

You can CHOOSE to SACRIFICE that tank in order to eeke out just a little more Yield.

Saying that a Hulk should be able to fit all the Yield it wants without sacrificing any of its Tank is like saying a Damnation should be able to fit to deal 1000 DPS while tanking its normal 400k EHP.

It would have to choose between a DCU and MLU or a Cargo Extender as well as Cargo Rigs vs CDFE's.

That is more then enough sacrifice.

Snow Axe wrote:

It's a huge increase in base powergrid to do something it can already do with fitting mods so it can __________. I'm not even sure what the blank is. It sure as hell isn't MLU's, as that'd put the CPU way over the top. Cargo expanders maybe, but the notion of making a shield tank better just so you can make it not-great by taking out the DC and chop your hull HP's by 1/3 is...how do I put this? Probably not worth a developer's time, wouldn't you think?

It increases options with precious few slots to sacrifice and right off the bat makes it harder to gank for anyone that fits it.

That is a good five minutes work if you ask me.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-06-03 11:09:28 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
It increases options with precious few slots to sacrifice and right off the bat makes it harder to gank for anyone that fits it.

That is a good five minutes work if you ask me.


You know what else would increase options? Give it enough grid for LSE's and enough CPU for a rack of MLU II's. Hell, let's triple it's drone bay while we're at it so you can fit multiple racks of medium combat drones. Even better, since the Hulk apparently isn't boss enough already, let's give it a 4th strip! With a ton more CPU and grid of course, because options.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Alara IonStorm
#39 - 2012-06-03 11:12:27 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:

You know what else would increase options? Give it enough grid for LSE's and enough CPU for a rack of MLU II's. Hell, let's triple it's drone bay while we're at it so you can fit multiple racks of medium combat drones. Even better, since the Hulk apparently isn't boss enough already, let's give it a 4th strip! With a ton more CPU and grid of course, because options.

Seems like a bit too much in my opinion.

Enough fitting for a Medium Shield Extender and Strips without needing Powergrid mods should be sufficient.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#40 - 2012-06-03 11:12:57 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

So why are you complaining? Fully tank fit, it outmines every other ship in the game.

You can CHOOSE to SACRIFICE that tank in order to eeke out just a little more Yield.

Saying that a Hulk should be able to fit all the Yield it wants without sacrificing any of its Tank is like saying a Damnation should be able to fit to deal 1000 DPS while tanking its normal 400k EHP.

It would have to choose between a DCU and MLU or a Cargo Extender as well as Cargo Rigs vs CDFE's.

That is more then enough sacrifice.



You already have more base yield than any other ship in the game. Why in the world should the BASE, TANKY fitting have to include a Yield mod?

Every increase in yield or damage comes at the price of Tank. The Hulk is fine now. Fit for tank it can survive any Gank intending to make a profit and it still mines more than any other ship.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon