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CSM7 Summit Topic: The State of Incarna

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Bam Stroker
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#121 - 2012-05-29 14:34:18 UTC
Don't care as long as I can dock at a station, walk into a casino and play poker with other players for ISK.

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#122 - 2012-05-29 20:24:08 UTC
Wow, this thread boarded a crazy train and went flying off the rails.

To Two Step: A clear path from CCP would certainly be nice, but it seems like, in the spirit of 'iteration,' they should try out a couple of proofs of concept: an exploration-style "walking in space" site like they've been talking about to explore avatar gameplay, and a corp office to explore multiple avatars in one room. If these seem like modest goals, well, Team Avatar is modest. It seems like iterating on those would answer the most basic questions: whether solo-ish avatar-based gameplay can be compelling, and how to make it fit with flying-in-space-in-gelcaps, and; whether the engine can handle lots of rooms full of various numbers of avatars without faceplanting.

Once those are running satisfactorily, they can become the basis for more and more interesting content.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#123 - 2012-05-30 06:38:24 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Wow, this thread boarded a crazy train and went flying off the rails.

To Two Step: A clear path from CCP would certainly be nice, but it seems like, in the spirit of 'iteration,' they should try out a couple of proofs of concept: an exploration-style "walking in space" site like they've been talking about to explore avatar gameplay, and a corp office to explore multiple avatars in one room. If these seem like modest goals, well, Team Avatar is modest. It seems like iterating on those would answer the most basic questions: whether solo-ish avatar-based gameplay can be compelling, and how to make it fit with flying-in-space-in-gelcaps, and; whether the engine can handle lots of rooms full of various numbers of avatars without faceplanting.

Once those are running satisfactorily, they can become the basis for more and more interesting content.



Yeah, it would be great if CCP were to throw some stuff on SiSi, even if it's not remotely release quality

it's not like this is a new game where they need to be super-sekrit

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#124 - 2012-05-30 16:10:53 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Wow, this thread boarded a crazy train and went flying off the rails.



Eh, no one had any complaints about my short-term suggestions. It was the long term ones that seem to draw ire from certain quarters.

Basically, again, for the short term I just would like to see some avatar fixes and a customizable CQ. Maybe a corp office we can walk around in (and preferably customize as well).

Eve Poker and slots, as well as my radical ideas for the market would be things for the future.
Kameri Velith
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2012-05-31 15:24:24 UTC
Incarna really means one thing to me. "Han shot first". By that I mean I wanna get into barfights in suspicious cantinas in backwater stations of a backwater system. I want to find myself in an alliance friendly bar on unification day. I wanna sell deathsticks to jedi. I want to... oh you get the idea.
RAP ACTION HERO
#126 - 2012-05-31 15:27:04 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Wow, this thread boarded a crazy train and went flying off the rails.



Eh, no one had any complaints about my short-term suggestions. It was the long term ones that seem to draw ire from certain quarters.

Basically, again, for the short term I just would like to see some avatar fixes and a customizable CQ. Maybe a corp office we can walk around in (and preferably customize as well).

Eve Poker and slots, as well as my radical ideas for the market would be things for the future.

your avatar market ideas are not radical just shite

vitoc erryday
Oberine Noriepa
#127 - 2012-05-31 16:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Oberine Noriepa
I think Scatim Helicon is pretty much dead on as far as Incarna's development is concerned. More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases. Much like the spaceship side of EVE, role-playing and social spaces should become a byproduct. Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be social spaces at all, but to immediately develop Incarna in that direction will lead to the same negative impressions that players had regarding the Captain's Quarters. We don't need empty rooms to emote in EVE, we need things to do. Social spaces to emote in are welcome, but I most certainly don't want Incarna being developed in that direction initially or even for the major course of its development.

More customization options are always a good thing. There are some good suggestions by many posters in this thread as far as customization is concerned, and this goes for both clothing options and customizable CQs. The NeX and Aurum can stay, but I think that market should have a little more purpose than simply inserting a PLEX for an exchange. Aurum prices should definitely be reduced as well.

∃
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#128 - 2012-06-02 23:20:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
I think Scatim Helicon is pretty much dead on as far as Incarna's development is concerned. More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases. Much like the spaceship side of EVE, role-playing and social spaces should become a byproduct. Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be social spaces at all, but to immediately develop Incarna in that direction will lead to the same negative impressions that players had regarding the Captain's Quarters. We don't need empty rooms to emote in EVE, we need things to do. Social spaces to emote in are welcome, but I most certainly don't want Incarna being developed in that direction initially or even for the major course of its development.

More customization options are always a good thing. There are some good suggestions by many posters in this thread as far as customization is concerned, and this goes for both clothing options and customizable CQs. The NeX and Aurum can stay, but I think that market should have a little more purpose than simply inserting a PLEX for an exchange. Aurum prices should definitely be reduced as well.


QFT. I couldn't agree more, and at the summit I was relieved to see the approach CCP is finally taking with regards to the entirety of Incarna, from the small stuff like character customization all the way up to the game play possibilities hinted at during Fan Fest.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#129 - 2012-06-03 20:15:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Che Biko
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
I think Scatim Helicon is pretty much dead on as far as Incarna's development is concerned. More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases. Much like the spaceship side of EVE, role-playing and social spaces should become a byproduct. Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be social spaces at all, but to immediately develop Incarna in that direction will lead to the same negative impressions that players had regarding the Captain's Quarters. We don't need empty rooms to emote in EVE, we need things to do. Social spaces to emote in are welcome, but I most certainly don't want Incarna being developed in that direction initially or even for the major course of its development.

More customization options are always a good thing. There are some good suggestions by many posters in this thread as far as customization is concerned, and this goes for both clothing options and customizable CQs. The NeX and Aurum can stay, but I think that market should have a little more purpose than simply inserting a PLEX for an exchange. Aurum prices should definitely be reduced as well.


QFT. I couldn't agree more, and at the summit I was relieved to see the approach CCP is finally taking with regards to the entirety of Incarna, from the small stuff like character customization all the way up to the game play possibilities hinted at during Fan Fest.

IMO:
That's really funny, for several reasons:

I don't see why the spaceship side of EVE should become a byproduct. I think this is one of the reasons why Incarna didn't get much love.

I don't see how delivering a single player room that players don't like proves that social spaces would lead to negative impressions (considering because people complained about not being able to show of their ridiculously expensive clothes), especially because the riots after Incarna were more about what CCP didn't do, and not what they did. If the CQ was part of Inferno, the idea of Incarna would not have been poisened in the minds of players. I'm dissappointed that CCP does not seem to get this entirely.
When "WiS" was discussed in 2008 and beyond, players were enthousiastic about exactly the things you now claim would lead to negative impressions, and I have yet to see anything that would indicate that a majority of the players would not like WiS if it was deployed well and did not suck too much resources away from the existing features.

RP-ers are the people that got screwed most by Incarna, and that was because CCP did not deliver what was promised (like customizable CQ's, FYI). Some of them want (a) room(s) to socialize in. Throw them a bone FFS. It's not like they've not been very patient, they''ve been waiting for WiS for a lot longer than 18 months.

Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

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Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#130 - 2012-06-03 21:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases.


As someone who has been an active roleplayer in MMORPGs in the past I would state that having gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner is exactly what many roleplayers want. Being able to interact with the game world and other players in a meaningful way is a positive for roleplaying. Just ensure the lore and the game mechanics make sense together as well, and any real roleplayer should be happy.

Che Biko wrote:

RP-ers are the people that got screwed most by Incarna, and that was because CCP did not deliver what was promised (like customizable CQ's, FYI). They want (a) room(s) to socialize in. Throw them a bone FFS. It's not like they've not been very patient, they''ve been waiting for WiS for a lot longer than 18 months.


Is this something you want as a roleplayer, or something you assume roleplayers want? Because personally I really don't care about being able to socialize and play dress up in a virtual doll house, nor did I feel cheated in this regard as a roleplayer because Incarna didn't deliver such "gameplay". The expansion/feature that offended me the most as a roleplayer was Incursions, not Incarna. Incursions as implemented is a slap in the face to RPers with a bag of dog shite.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#131 - 2012-06-03 23:35:23 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases.


As someone who has been an active roleplayer in MMORPGs in the past I would state that having gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner is exactly what many roleplayers want. Being able to interact with the game world and other players in a meaningful way is a positive for roleplaying. Just ensure the lore and the game mechanics make sense together as well, and any real roleplayer should be happy.


Exactly.

There've been some particularly patronising suggestions made in the past that CCP needed to push on with gameplay-vacuum social environments 'for the sake of the roleplayers' - as though roleplayers are simpleminded little creatures that just need to see their avatars standing near other avatars in an empty room to make them happy, and don't have any interest in gameplay or fun or depth.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#132 - 2012-06-04 02:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Flamespar
Add social spaces. They are important for new players too as they make it easier to meet exisiting players and build friendships.

Anything that ultimately helps new players to get in to player corps is a huge plus. This is where social spaces in Incarna will help.

Also we need to be able to meet Dust players somewhere. I'd rather do it through Incarna than through a clunky text interface.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#133 - 2012-06-04 03:06:23 UTC
Che Biko wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
I think Scatim Helicon is pretty much dead on as far as Incarna's development is concerned. More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases. Much like the spaceship side of EVE, role-playing and social spaces should become a byproduct. Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be social spaces at all, but to immediately develop Incarna in that direction will lead to the same negative impressions that players had regarding the Captain's Quarters. We don't need empty rooms to emote in EVE, we need things to do. Social spaces to emote in are welcome, but I most certainly don't want Incarna being developed in that direction initially or even for the major course of its development.

More customization options are always a good thing. There are some good suggestions by many posters in this thread as far as customization is concerned, and this goes for both clothing options and customizable CQs. The NeX and Aurum can stay, but I think that market should have a little more purpose than simply inserting a PLEX for an exchange. Aurum prices should definitely be reduced as well.


QFT. I couldn't agree more, and at the summit I was relieved to see the approach CCP is finally taking with regards to the entirety of Incarna, from the small stuff like character customization all the way up to the game play possibilities hinted at during Fan Fest.

IMO:
That's really funny, for several reasons:

I don't see how why the spaceship side of EVE should become a byproduct. I think this is one of the reasons why Incarna didn't get much love.

I don't see how delivering a single player room that players don't like proves that social spaces would lead to negative impressions (considering because people complained about not being able to show of their ridiculously expensive clothes), especially because the riots after Incarna were more about what CCP didn't do, and not what they did. If the CQ was part of Inferno, the idea of Incarna would not have been poisened in the minds of players. I'm dissappointed that CCP does not seem to get this entirely.
When "WiS" was discussed in 2008 and beyond, players were enthousiastic about exactly the things you now claim would lead to negative impressions, and I have yet to see anything that would indicate that a majority of the players would not like WiS if it was deployed well and did not suck too much resources away from the existing features.

RP-ers are the people that got screwed most by Incarna, and that was because CCP did not deliver what was promised (like customizable CQ's, FYI). They want (a) room(s) to socialize in. Throw them a bone FFS. It's not like they've not been very patient, they''ve been waiting for WiS for a lot longer than 18 months.


I'd have to say I am more in agreement with this POV than my esteemed CSM 7 peer. We really can't tie the negative reaction to Incarna to the idea that "social" spaces are by definition "evil" and not inline with what Eve is about.

Tying ambulation to game play certainly has to be the goal but a lot of players are going to be happy to see incremental improved WiS experiences that may only have small ties to game elements if it gets that door open. A lot of corporate and alliance "in person" experiences would be welcome by a large segment of Eve even if it they didn't have a major connection to current Eve mechanics.

I fear that "we didn't deliver anything but pants and tats for years because we couldn't think of a way to make it part of a "game mechanic" could be the result if that "game mechanic" bar is applied too vigorously.

We need that door open somehow, sooner rather than later, even if at first its only open a little.

Issler
RAP ACTION HERO
#134 - 2012-06-04 03:59:35 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Che Biko wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
I think Scatim Helicon is pretty much dead on as far as Incarna's development is concerned. More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases. Much like the spaceship side of EVE, role-playing and social spaces should become a byproduct. Now, I'm not saying that there shouldn't be social spaces at all, but to immediately develop Incarna in that direction will lead to the same negative impressions that players had regarding the Captain's Quarters. We don't need empty rooms to emote in EVE, we need things to do. Social spaces to emote in are welcome, but I most certainly don't want Incarna being developed in that direction initially or even for the major course of its development.

More customization options are always a good thing. There are some good suggestions by many posters in this thread as far as customization is concerned, and this goes for both clothing options and customizable CQs. The NeX and Aurum can stay, but I think that market should have a little more purpose than simply inserting a PLEX for an exchange. Aurum prices should definitely be reduced as well.


QFT. I couldn't agree more, and at the summit I was relieved to see the approach CCP is finally taking with regards to the entirety of Incarna, from the small stuff like character customization all the way up to the game play possibilities hinted at during Fan Fest.

IMO:
That's really funny, for several reasons:

I don't see how why the spaceship side of EVE should become a byproduct. I think this is one of the reasons why Incarna didn't get much love.

I don't see how delivering a single player room that players don't like proves that social spaces would lead to negative impressions (considering because people complained about not being able to show of their ridiculously expensive clothes), especially because the riots after Incarna were more about what CCP didn't do, and not what they did. If the CQ was part of Inferno, the idea of Incarna would not have been poisened in the minds of players. I'm dissappointed that CCP does not seem to get this entirely.
When "WiS" was discussed in 2008 and beyond, players were enthousiastic about exactly the things you now claim would lead to negative impressions, and I have yet to see anything that would indicate that a majority of the players would not like WiS if it was deployed well and did not suck too much resources away from the existing features.

RP-ers are the people that got screwed most by Incarna, and that was because CCP did not deliver what was promised (like customizable CQ's, FYI). They want (a) room(s) to socialize in. Throw them a bone FFS. It's not like they've not been very patient, they''ve been waiting for WiS for a lot longer than 18 months.


I'd have to say I am more in agreement with this POV than my esteemed CSM 7 peer. We really can't tie the negative reaction to Incarna to the idea that "social" spaces are by definition "evil" and not inline with what Eve is about.

Tying ambulation to game play certainly has to be the goal but a lot of players are going to be happy to see incremental improved WiS experiences that may only have small ties to game elements if it gets that door open. A lot of corporate and alliance "in person" experiences would be welcome by a large segment of Eve even if it they didn't have a major connection to current Eve mechanics.

I fear that "we didn't deliver anything but pants and tats for years because we couldn't think of a way to make it part of a "game mechanic" could be the result if that "game mechanic" bar is applied too vigorously.

We need that door open somehow, sooner rather than later, even if at first its only open a little.

Issler

no to quick and dirty wis development.

vitoc erryday
Oberine Noriepa
#135 - 2012-06-04 04:08:50 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases.


As someone who has been an active roleplayer in MMORPGs in the past I would state that having gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner is exactly what many roleplayers want. Being able to interact with the game world and other players in a meaningful way is a positive for roleplaying. Just ensure the lore and the game mechanics make sense together as well, and any real roleplayer should be happy.

I agree. I wasn't trying to box role-players into a specific mindset, but I see more suggestions for empty social spaces more than anything else over here.

∃
Flamespar
WarRavens
#136 - 2012-06-04 05:06:16 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

I'd have to say I am more in agreement with this POV than my esteemed CSM 7 peer. We really can't tie the negative reaction to Incarna to the idea that "social" spaces are by definition "evil" and not inline with what Eve is about.

Tying ambulation to game play certainly has to be the goal but a lot of players are going to be happy to see incremental improved WiS experiences that may only have small ties to game elements if it gets that door open. A lot of corporate and alliance "in person" experiences would be welcome by a large segment of Eve even if it they didn't have a major connection to current Eve mechanics.

I fear that "we didn't deliver anything but pants and tats for years because we couldn't think of a way to make it part of a "game mechanic" could be the result if that "game mechanic" bar is applied too vigorously.

We need that door open somehow, sooner rather than later, even if at first its only open a little.

Issler


Isn't this something that CCP could do on the test server? Release Incarna incrementally for testing by interested players and then roll it out to tranquility when it reatures a satisfactory level of completeness and has a good feature set?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#137 - 2012-06-04 06:47:23 UTC
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases.


As someone who has been an active roleplayer in MMORPGs in the past I would state that having gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner is exactly what many roleplayers want. Being able to interact with the game world and other players in a meaningful way is a positive for roleplaying. Just ensure the lore and the game mechanics make sense together as well, and any real roleplayer should be happy.

I agree. I wasn't trying to box role-players into a specific mindset, but I see more suggestions for empty social spaces more than anything else over here.


The divide between WiSers (do it now, if even a little) and CCP (do everything, but in a few years) is quite strong.

I sitl think that the whole approach of CCP about WiS is "NOT NOW", Because they don't want or they can't, but delivering WiS later and not sooner is the true goal and not a consequence of "thorough gameplay first, social later".

They can overlay current player experience with WiS w/o prejudice for FiS iteration and WiS gameplay. They don't do and so it's because they don't want or can not, not because "it is better" or "they have seen the light" and certainly NOT because "players want it this way".

Pies in heaven are exactly what they are. Straight
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-06-04 09:56:57 UTC
"Delivering WiS later and not sooner" isn't a 'goal', its accepting the reality of having to prioritise limited development resources, and acknowledging that Eve has a list of obsolete, broken, and abandoned features as long as my arm that players have been complaining about for years that also require attention.

Team Avatar spending some time to sit down with a blank page and saying "ok, how do we make this feature into something fun, and interesting, and tie it meaningfully into the rest of the game" isn't a bad thing, its just something that should have been done 5 or 6 years ago rather than now.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
RAP ACTION HERO
#139 - 2012-06-04 12:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: RAP ACTION HERO
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
Xorv wrote:
Oberine Noriepa wrote:
More than anything, Incarna needs gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner. Catering to the role-playing or social space crowds is the wrong direction to take Incarna in its initial phases.


As someone who has been an active roleplayer in MMORPGs in the past I would state that having gameplay that ties into the rest of the game in a meaningful manner is exactly what many roleplayers want. Being able to interact with the game world and other players in a meaningful way is a positive for roleplaying. Just ensure the lore and the game mechanics make sense together as well, and any real roleplayer should be happy.

I agree. I wasn't trying to box role-players into a specific mindset, but I see more suggestions for empty social spaces more than anything else over here.


The divide between WiSers (do it now, if even a little) and CCP (do everything, but in a few years) is quite strong.

I sitl think that the whole approach of CCP about WiS is "NOT NOW", Because they don't want or they can't, but delivering WiS later and not sooner is the true goal and not a consequence of "thorough gameplay first, social later".

They can overlay current player experience with WiS w/o prejudice for FiS iteration and WiS gameplay. They don't do and so it's because they don't want or can not, not because "it is better" or "they have seen the light" and certainly NOT because "players want it this way".

Pies in heaven are exactly what they are. Straight


i no comprende your post and your hair. is there any more to your message than you want the quick and dirty?
do you know what happened with incarna? it was dirty, and it wasn't even quick.

vitoc erryday
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#140 - 2012-06-04 13:17:22 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Team Avatar spending some time to sit down with a blank page and saying "ok, how do we make this feature into something fun, and interesting, and tie it meaningfully into the rest of the game" isn't a bad thing, its just something that should have been done 5 or 6 years ago rather than now.


I'd much prefer to see "empty social spaces" implemented well before any "meaningful" content gets added. Allowing multiplayer spaces before you need to use them means that the folks responsible for tuning that side of the game get a chance to do so before the lack of tuning breaks some aspect of game play completely.

You have to walk before you can run. You have to be able to squeeze multiple high detail avatars into a space at once before they can start playing poker together.

Day 0 Advice for New Players