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Has Hatred gone too far CCP?
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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2012-06-02 14:33:57 UTC
Leto Atraities wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Would a 'properly fitted' Hulk be 'unganakable' or could the gankers just bring more gank ships to the party and gank the hardened Hulk?
They already have to, and no ship is ungankable (aside from ones that aren't allowed in combat to begin with, quite possibly for that very reason).



aren't allowed? LOL what tha hell is that? so you mean to tell me that i used to be dreaming when i saw bestower pvp clips on youtube? or even hulks for that matter?

just because it's not the ideal pvp ship doesn't mean you can't use it as such.

...who's said bestowers, iterons and hulks aren't "allowed in combat"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#102 - 2012-06-02 14:34:49 UTC
Leto Atraities wrote:
aren't allowed? LOL what tha hell is that?
Highsec capships.
The amount of ships required to gank them is so large that the node will have problems handling it. They can still be ganked if you throw bigger ships at them, but those bigger ships aren't allowed in (and those that exist aren't allowed to be used that way).

So yeah: no ship is ungankable except the ones that aren't allowed in combat to begin with.
Lustralis
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-06-02 14:40:21 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:

No. They announced their goal as "to kill your game". They are running Permageddon only in order to see if they can actually put a company out of business.


Well, isn't this true Goon modus operandi? At least the original intentions of Goons everywhere is to troll other people's fun. I don't know much about how they operate in Eve but this isn't really a surprise!

However I do know that CCP like to engineer things in Eve, through the invisible hand of dev accounts. I wouldn't be surprised if either devs were responsible, or if when Goons eventually fall the devs will have been busy organising it Bear.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist btw, it just makes sense to me as it's their mortgages that are being paid by the game.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2012-06-02 14:42:14 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
Reina Supremus wrote:

I'm not going to place blame on the miners for this hate-fest because you guys are the ones that zealously promoted the hate to begin with.


It's utterly idiotic is it not ?

I showed a few poastings from here to my old 'shrink' when I ran into him. These people are quite 'not well'.


He must be one hell of a shrink to be able to diagnose someone based on the content of a post on the forums of an internet game. The conventional wisdom is that it takes considerable time with a person to determine mental illness.

I'm still picturing you running into an old psychiatrist and immediately showing him your spaceship game message board and complaining about the people on it. Maybe you need to start seeing him again.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#105 - 2012-06-02 14:47:55 UTC
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
It's utterly idiotic is it not ?

I showed a few poastings from here to my old 'shrink' when I ran into him. These people are quite 'not well'.


Holy ****, how did I miss this gem?

How can you even post something like this and expect people to take it seriously in any way? You are a clown.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2012-06-02 14:51:17 UTC
Lustralis wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:

No. They announced their goal as "to kill your game". They are running Permageddon only in order to see if they can actually put a company out of business.


Well, isn't this true Goon modus operandi? At least the original intentions of Goons everywhere is to troll other people's fun. I don't know much about how they operate in Eve but this isn't really a surprise!

However I do know that CCP like to engineer things in Eve, through the invisible hand of dev accounts. I wouldn't be surprised if either devs were responsible, or if when Goons eventually fall the devs will have been busy organising it Bear.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist btw, it just makes sense to me as it's their mortgages that are being paid by the game.


Guessing you have some evidence for at least one of these claims, or you wouldn't be wasting time posting them here.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Josef Djugashvilis
#107 - 2012-06-02 14:55:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Would a 'properly fitted' Hulk be 'unganakable' or could the gankers just bring more gank ships to the party and gank the hardened Hulk?
They already have to, and no ship is ungankable (aside from ones that aren't allowed in combat to begin with, quite possibly for that very reason).

Thank you Tippia for making my point for me.

A Hulk cannot, nor should it be 'gank proof.'

However, it does make a nonsense of the gankers who blame the Hulk pilots for not fitting their ship correctly.

This is not a signature.
Ayame Tao
#108 - 2012-06-02 14:56:21 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Step 1: give hulk's much better buffer tanks


yes you can do this by fitting a Damage Control II, Micro Auxiliary Power Core II, Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction, two Adaptive Invulnerability Field IIs, an EM or thermic hardener and two Medium Core Defense Field Extender Is


I do not mine, but I am curious about this.

Would a 'properly fitted' Hulk be 'unganakable' or could the gankers just bring more gank ships to the party and gank the hardened Hulk?


Maybe.

Unlikely.

More likely they'll gank the untanked on ein the next belt. Peruse the killboards and you'll see a sorry and all too common theme of Hulks with expensive T2 and faction gear with no tank mods. I have yet to see a Hulk sporting a 25,000+ EHP on a killmaill, sorry, spaceship murder notification.

All too worryingly, too many of them are also linked to pod kills, which to me shows that theyr were AFK or that they warped to a station and warped back to the belt in their pod to get ganked again (and we all know what that indicates...)

Sure, a gang of 5 destroyers can still kill you, but I'm pretty sure if I coordinated 4 of my friends, I don't give a sh*t what you're flying,. its going down.

The big deal here (IMO) is that miners* are refusing to adapt and are choosing to whine about the injustice of being blown up in a game where the primary goal is to blow other people's stuff up. Using better fits (and taking the yield hit as an operational cost) or choosing more intelligent places to mine, the threat of lone gank destroyers is eliminated** If they need to bring a bunch of friends or ship up to heavier gear, that's putting a squeeze on profit margins and adding extra time and hassle.

* not all of them, obviously. Just the ones whinegasming all of GD.
** as much as is possible. Which is actually quite a lot.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#109 - 2012-06-02 15:15:15 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
However, it does make a nonsense of the gankers who blame the Hulk pilots for not fitting their ship correctly.
No, it doesn't, because if they tanked their ships, they would become much less profitable to attack; they'd require much more manpower to attack; and they'd be much less likely to die from the attacks.

End result: fewer attacks will happen, fewer still will succeed, and even fewer will result in any gain for the attacker.

That is really all that you can ask for.
Hunin Ravensong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2012-06-02 15:54:44 UTC
Hulk fitted purely for isk/hr takes 1 dessie to suicide, hulk fitted primarily for tank takes 7. Since most suicide ganks in a belt bring 3-5 destroyers, if you fit to tank, you warp away after looting the pretty blue wrecks far more often than you die (at least untill the gankers go back to non-cost effective "overkill" to do the job)
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-06-02 16:21:13 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor wrote:
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:


Oh wait, isn't that what the Goons want so they can make their pets mine more and cause huge inflation in the mineral prices. Maybe that is why they are running a perma-hulkageddon...



No. They announced their goal as "to kill your game". They are running Permageddon only in order to see if they can actually put a company out of business.

Sorry, that's where the logic leads.

Repeat after me: there's a difference between ruining the game, and ruining your game.



One ruins the game and is against the TOS (I think) the other is griefing and is against the TOS (I think).
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#112 - 2012-06-02 16:26:28 UTC
Reina Supremus wrote:
This level of hate is bad for the community and should not be tolerated.


I'm not going to place blame on the miners for this hate-fest because you guys are the ones that zealously promoted the hate to begin with.



I almost hate to interject here.. lol. Hate has been part of the game since the early days. It's not new.. even the levels of hate are not new. Better hate in game over in game concepts than hate and violence in real life.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-06-02 16:27:15 UTC
Ayame Tao wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Denidil wrote:
Step 1: give hulk's much better buffer tanks


yes you can do this by fitting a Damage Control II, Micro Auxiliary Power Core II, Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction, two Adaptive Invulnerability Field IIs, an EM or thermic hardener and two Medium Core Defense Field Extender Is


I do not mine, but I am curious about this.

Would a 'properly fitted' Hulk be 'unganakable' or could the gankers just bring more gank ships to the party and gank the hardened Hulk?


Maybe.

Unlikely.

More likely they'll gank the untanked on ein the next belt. Peruse the killboards and you'll see a sorry and all too common theme of Hulks with expensive T2 and faction gear with no tank mods. I have yet to see a Hulk sporting a 25,000+ EHP on a killmaill, sorry, spaceship murder notification.

All too worryingly, too many of them are also linked to pod kills, which to me shows that theyr were AFK or that they warped to a station and warped back to the belt in their pod to get ganked again (and we all know what that indicates...)

Sure, a gang of 5 destroyers can still kill you, but I'm pretty sure if I coordinated 4 of my friends, I don't give a sh*t what you're flying,. its going down.

The big deal here (IMO) is that miners* are refusing to adapt and are choosing to whine about the injustice of being blown up in a game where the primary goal is to blow other people's stuff up. Using better fits (and taking the yield hit as an operational cost) or choosing more intelligent places to mine, the threat of lone gank destroyers is eliminated** If they need to bring a bunch of friends or ship up to heavier gear, that's putting a squeeze on profit margins and adding extra time and hassle.

* not all of them, obviously. Just the ones whinegasming all of GD.
** as much as is possible. Which is actually quite a lot.
These words are true. There is a limit to how much manpower we have to waste on a single tanked hulk, especially when dozen other are waiting to get slaughtered.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2012-06-02 16:32:19 UTC
Hunin Ravensong wrote:
Hulk fitted purely for isk/hr takes 1 dessie to suicide, hulk fitted primarily for tank takes 7. Since most suicide ganks in a belt bring 3-5 destroyers, if you fit to tank, you warp away after looting the pretty blue wrecks far more often than you die (at least untill the gankers go back to non-cost effective "overkill" to do the job)



Thanks mr dime a dozen, relevant posting, holier than thou guy. How you have to fit a ship has nothing what so ever to do with the op's commentary.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#115 - 2012-06-02 17:17:04 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Reina Supremus wrote:
jump freighters [...] can't generate a mathematical stable source of Tech income.


lol


I can paraphrase too, watch!

Richard Desturned wrote:
Reina Supremus [...] can't generate a mathematical stable source of Tech income


See? I paraphrased BBCode.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#116 - 2012-06-02 17:29:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Pisov viet wrote:
These words are true. There is a limit to how much manpower we have to waste on a single tanked hulk, especially when dozen other are waiting to get slaughtered.


The one thing I don't understand about you and GS is why you don't systematically grind hi sec belts and choke points killing every hauler and mining ship, using as many ships as needed.

You'd make even madder money selling Technetium, and would show everyone where this game is broken (being able and projecting nearly unlimited and organized power into the low level "starting area").

It would be definitely worth the effort, plus the forums would go in permanently down, because of so many people rage posting.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Josef Djugashvilis
#117 - 2012-06-02 17:36:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
However, it does make a nonsense of the gankers who blame the Hulk pilots for not fitting their ship correctly.
No, it doesn't, because if they tanked their ships, they would become much less profitable to attack; they'd require much more manpower to attack; and they'd be much less likely to die from the attacks.

End result: fewer attacks will happen, fewer still will succeed, and even fewer will result in any gain for the attacker.

That is really all that you can ask for.



Tippia, you seem to be ignoring the bit where the goons have offered bounties for Hulk kills, thus reducing the gankees cost.

If all miners fitted 'super' tanks, the goons would simply inrease the reward bonus.

By your implied logic, if all Hulk miners fitted 'super' tanks, ganking would more or less end.


Nonsense, and you know it.

This is not a signature.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#118 - 2012-06-02 17:40:45 UTC
Reina Supremus wrote:
Miners mad at gankers.
Gankers mad at miners.

I personally don't care what either side thinks. However it's apparent that there's a very strong surge of hate against a certain community within EvE that in general I do not consider healthy for EvE as a game. Now miners are responding with counter-hate threads. Soon we'll all be cursing and swearing at each other because of...real hate over a fake video game.

We will all start to look ridiculous to outsiders who just started the game or were looking at the forums to decide whether or not to give it a try.

In all honesty Goonswarm, gank away. However, at least tell people it's for your Tech profits and not to "RID THE WORLD OF OF THE HEATHEN AFK MINERS" "HATE THEM" "BLAME THEM" "PERSECUTE THEM" "KILL THEM"

Why don't we rid the world of AFK mission runners and 0.01 ISK bots and jump freighters (yes there are bots that YOU NULL BEARS USE FOR JUMP FREIGHTING, MOON GOO AND EVEN YOU INTEL CHANNELS/AFK Cloakers). We don't rid the world of them because the EFFECT of their destruction does not generate a mathematically stable source of Tech income. This proves you are only ganking Hulks for Tech and not for this new religious movement of purging EvE of afk income earners.

However, you're overtly creating hatred in a manner which shouldn't be tolerated in any video GAME (or REAL LIFE) no matter what the game is supposed to be about.

Go ahead and gank the miners to oblivion, but don't become hate merchants at the same time. I am ashamed that CCP has let you guys go that far.

This level of hate is bad for the community and should not be tolerated.


I'm not going to place blame on the miners for this hate-fest because you guys are the ones that zealously promoted the hate to begin with.




Goons cloak real game objectives in "grief the bears" facades, which is why CCP does not stop them. Look past their rhetoric and run the numbers and you will see "ahh.... makes sense!".

And we must admit that the goons, like them or hate them, do treat noobs well - probably better than most alliances. There is a lot of elitism in this game centered around SP and KB stats, meaning that newer and lesser skilled players are left out. This means an untapped resource of players who, given an edge over not wanting ISK and shiney ships, can accomplish just about anything.

It's kind of how dictators and megalomaniacs in history would entice disenfranchised youth to join their movements. Much of the goon rhetoric, how they word their posts, and ideals bear similarity to the kind of stuff you would see from Russia during the period of 1900 to 1917 and Germany from 1920 to 1945.

Fact is, whether you agree with it or not, what they are doing actually works. And in the end, they will rake in huge amounts of ISK while everybody is complaining about "griefing".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
NuclearSpaceFishCapitalism
#119 - 2012-06-02 17:45:57 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
All bots must die!!!

As to the hatred, I think CCP should be applauded for not censoring these boards to heavily. All games have hate but this is one of the few games you can actually vent in. Especially as they consider these boards part of the game. (Unless you use RL references)

Also it gives people a good reference that EvE is not a game for the weak hearted.



Thats false on all accounts.

Not all miners are botters.

Not all miners are actually afk.

Being at the keyboard also does not prevent anyone from ganking you if you have half a brain and practiced the maneuver at least once.

CCP allowing such a campaign of harassment is unprecedented, but should not be applauded as they are simply sitting on the fence to see which way the RL money swings. If people start to walk then CCP is going to make a change in favor of the miners.

CCP's silence makes them look weak.

CCP's view of weakness is going to push existing players away, even non-miners, and repel possible new players when they read that they can be harassed indefinitely without the developers caring.

Hulkageddon shatters the image of the game as it destroys the somewhat protected nature of hisec as player harassment continues unabated. It is one thing to have the potential risk in hisec, but to have it be nothing short of a death sentence is another thing, thus shattering the game world.

EVE is supposed to be a game where the greatest wealth is up for grabs, if you are willing to take on the risks associated with it.

Eve is now a game where trying to do something relaxing that does not ruin the experience for anyone else, and does not yield massive sums of isk is a reason to be harassed into oblivion. This is not the eve most people have decided to pay good money for, it is null sec risks with hisec minerals.

As for the OP, the gaming community as a whole already sees eve players as anti-social trolls, I'm not sure how much worse the image of ccp and the eve community can get.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#120 - 2012-06-02 17:52:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Tippia, you seem to be ignoring the bit where the goons have offered bounties for Hulk kills, thus reducing the gankees cost.
At 10M/hulk, it's not enough to make up for the increased cost that comes from going after that tanked Hulk.

Quote:
If all miners fitted 'super' tanks, the goons would simply inrease the reward bonus.
That would rather ruin the economy of the whole setup.

Quote:
By your implied logic, if all Hulk miners fitted 'super' tanks, ganking would more or less end.
No, it would just be far easier to stay untouched. It's just statistics. You're taking the basic foundation of highsec security — that aggression comes at a cost — and you're tweaking the variables to work to your benefit.

There is a finite amount of gankers and a fixed downtime between each gank. If you require more of them to attend each gank, you forcibly reduce the number of ganks that can happen in any given timespan. The only way they have to counter this is to fly bigger ships, but that massively increases the cost of the gank (as in an order of magnitude), and still requires more people than before.

The finite amount of gankers also means that they have to focus. This means fewer targets can be attacked. This means there's a higher chance that you will not be the target. It also means they will have to go where the pickings are good, which makes it easier not to be there, and thus reduce the chance of you being picked even further. Oh, and it makes them far easier to spot, letting you get out of the way earlier, further reducing the chance that you are targeted.

It doesn't remove the ganks — it skews the statistics and economics in your favour.