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CCP: a question about FW for the forseeable future

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Wenron
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-05-30 22:05:13 UTC
Cearain wrote:


Or just join the winning side. You will make more isk instead of less isk for the exact same activity and you won't be restricted in where you can dock.

In fact when you see someone plexing in your system they won't be able to dock and switch ships, so you can fit some racial jammers and look like a pro on the killboards.



To reiterate, the system now isn't great (but it is an improvement in terms of forcing FW activity), and being on the losing side means you'll be eating turd sandwiches. There is a lot of room for improvement.

One improvement may be a militia recruiting freeze for the winning faction. Seems to me that would keep the band wagoners at bay and may be justifiable in the sense that what is the point of expanding your standing fighting force when you have no immediate need for them?

I won't get into other obvious improvements with plexes as they have been beaten to death. However, I will offer that station lockouts make sense for any systems owned by the opposing faction with the exception of the militia stations. If the amarr take a minmatar system, minmatar miltia members should be able to dock at the TLF stations. In response to this, maybe the station guns can be manned by amarr militia or there is limited or no hangar access so there is a consequence for trying to dock? Or perhaps there is a dock timer which will give you just enough time to repair before being booted out? I don't know, but it seems silly that the TLF should retain a station in a system owned by the opposing faction like business as usual. It should be a stronghold in hostile territory. I do understand that it is also silly that minmatar corps can retain all of their assets in a system overrun by amarr or vice versa.

I am simply offering alternatives. It is true that flying cheap is not glorious and involves a lot of pod trips. It is true that to take on a destroyer or faction frig you may need more people. If you are casual and solo, a lot will depend on how mobile and alert you are. You are fighting an uphill battle all the way. Get enough people to do this and fan out across many systems that may not be as populated and I suspect that you may be able to snag a few of them.

With the min/amarr militias as they are now, no systems will be taken unless strategies drastically change. What I don't want to see is one faction or the majority of a faction give up.

Lastly, my opinion is that if you join FW expressly to make crazy isk, you are doing it wrong.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#82 - 2012-05-30 23:11:21 UTC
Having a winning side no longer able to take on new players might be worth thinking about. I admit I haven't thought it through on how it would work with corps and alliances.


As far as station lockouts. They don't make any sense from the rp lore we are given. Concord/empire space is governed by the rules of concord. According to those rules privately held npc corporations let people dock regardless of who has sov. Why would the quafe or roden stop allowing gallente to dock in caldari sov space, but allow them in minmatar space but not allow caldari to dock there. Its the private corp that controls the station and sets the fees etc. Not the soveriegn.


As far as one side giving up I really don't care. Gallente had pretty much given up before these lopsided consequences. I think encouraging ccp to continue with bad mechanics by continuing to play no matter how bad they are is a bad idea.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#83 - 2012-05-30 23:12:19 UTC
There's alot of derp in this section. Amarr can easily solo any plex out there. I've soloed minors, mediums and majors. I've not run an unrestricted Major yet. I like the station lockouts. However, the 4x LP thing is harsh for them po' folks. I can see the scale being 1, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0. But 4x just makes me not even pay attention to LP gains.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#84 - 2012-05-30 23:19:51 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
There's alot of derp in this section. Amarr can easily solo any plex out there. I've soloed minors, mediums and majors. I've not run an unrestricted Major yet. I like the station lockouts. However, the 4x LP thing is harsh for them po' folks. I can see the scale being 1, 1.25, 1.5, 2.0. But 4x just makes me not even pay attention to LP gains.



Soloing even gated majors in a bc is pretty tough except for some select fits. Often you have to kite them and lose time on the timer. I suppose you are using a heavy missile drake - the quintessential pve and pvp ship. Try it in a ham drake, hurricane, myrm or a harbinger. Forget about what the minmatar need to use to run our major plexes.

As far as the lp gains I think its ok for the winning side to get the increase they do. It only comes from investing allot of lp to begin with. But punishing the losing side to make their lp so much worse than high sec stores is pretty hard to swallow.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Dynast
Room for Improvement
Good Sax
#85 - 2012-05-30 23:24:02 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Faction war today is a VASTLY better system than it was a month ago.

I have mixed feelings about the station docking mechanics, but it sure feels like the new system is working, at least in Gallente/Caldari FW. The combination of carrot and stick has gotten the CalMil LP farmers involved in the actual warfare, and the warfare has shifted more towards smaller scale, smaller ship battles. Which unlike big LogiBlob fleet fights, people aren't ****-scared of losing and will actually commit to.

And there's still space for the LogiBlob action on bunkers, just.. less focus on it. Which is for the better.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-05-31 00:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
about the plex solo thing: If you do not do the plex solo you have to share the LP with anyone else in the plex, with the LP being worth squat anyway you would be insane to plex with more people to actually try and turn a profit since, more plexers dont make the timers run down any faster.

You would be wasting time and potential profit, being 4-5x less anyway for the LP its just pretty much stupid to think you can make anything like good money, when you can run a lvl 4 in high sec keep it all AND have better profit ratios AND GUESS WHAT you can dock where the heck you like.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
dethleffs
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#87 - 2012-05-31 12:06:31 UTC
so, you need more people and mobilize them to get systems back to make it worthwile again.

I'd say live up to the challenge and start recruiting!
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#88 - 2012-05-31 13:30:27 UTC
I have over 300k LP and I've only actively plexed for 2 days. WTF are you on about Muad?

Is retaking space for Amarr going to be easy? No. But I didn't join Amarr FW for EZ MODE. I am Jones Bones, savior and messiah sent from Mother Amamake to save her little Amarrian children.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#89 - 2012-05-31 13:32:18 UTC
I really don't get it, if someone should start whining then this should be Minmatar! Why? Because there are only like 5 Amarr systems left where you can do offensive plexing or run missions in. This naturally ends up with you always get blobbed because it is so crowdy there. But we don't whine.

So Amarr, stop whining and start thinking out of the box, having like 50 systems available to run missions and plexing is really a huge benefit. Furthermore, getting less for your LP is not an issue because at the same time the prices for Amarr Faction Stuff have risen significantly (just take a lookt at slicer prices for example). So stop moaning and start thinking.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#90 - 2012-05-31 18:00:10 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
I have over 300k LP and I've only actively plexed for 2 days. WTF are you on about Muad?

Is retaking space for Amarr going to be easy? No. But I didn't join Amarr FW for EZ MODE. I am Jones Bones, savior and messiah sent from Mother Amamake to save her little Amarrian children.



If you got that isk from plexing then the shortest way for you to get that isk would be to run 10 major plexes. Assuming you could run them without ever having to travel to redock to repair and totally ideal conditions then it would take you 200 minutes. That is 3.333 hours of straight plexing. If you get 500 isk per lp - which I think would be quite hard in our horrible lp store, you would get 150 million isk for 3.333 hours of pve. 45 million isk per hour after you take the time to sort out what you need for what items in the lp store etc. High sec incursions are making 2xs that in straight isk and getting much much better lp on top of that.

I know you are space rich and don't have to worry about such petty things. But for the sake of the space poor, who have to worry about such things, you should know that is not a good economic use of your time.

Couple of points to make here.

Running the majors will not help the overall war effort as running minors both give equal vp as far as I know.

Yes you would get some extra isk if you collected the tags. But in a major that would likely mean you have to leave the orbit radius extending the time it takes to do the plex. The tags in the minor are not worth collecting IMO. The medium plex tags have a few that might add some isk but not really helpful when you consider the time it takes you outside the orbit radius. Because our lp store is so awefully uncompetitive combined with the fact that we have so many offensive plexes dropping tags I don't think the tags are going to be worth much.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#91 - 2012-05-31 18:25:37 UTC
Cearain wrote:

If you got that isk from plexing then the shortest way for you to get that isk would be to run 10 major plexes. Assuming you could run them without ever having to travel to redock to repair and totally ideal conditions then it would take you 200 minutes. That is 3.333 hours of straight plexing. If you get 500 isk per lp - which I think would be quite hard in our horrible lp store, you would get 150 million isk for 3.333 hours of pve. 45 million isk per hour after you take the time to sort out what you need for what items in the lp store etc. High sec incursions are making 2xs that in straight isk and getting much much better lp on top of that.


I've already said my one problem with the update is the 4x multiplier for LP required on the losing side. I don't think a single Minnie or Gallente or Blood Raiser (hi mom!) has said they think the 4x multiplier is CORNFLAKES GREAT! I hope Hans agrees and I'll probably try to talk to him ingame later this week about it.

Quote:

Running the majors will not help the overall war effort as running minors both give equal vp as far as I know.


If you don't run the majors, they won't respawn... The key to plexing a system is having different ship types doing the plexing so you can simultaneously run minors, mediums and majors. We got Dal/Vard/Sis up to like 7% each with just a small 6 man crew doing this for a few hours.


Ravan Hekki
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-05-31 20:18:49 UTC
Hire some mercs who dont care about sec status.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#93 - 2012-05-31 20:25:30 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:

If you got that isk from plexing then the shortest way for you to get that isk would be to run 10 major plexes. Assuming you could run them without ever having to travel to redock to repair and totally ideal conditions then it would take you 200 minutes. That is 3.333 hours of straight plexing. If you get 500 isk per lp - which I think would be quite hard in our horrible lp store, you would get 150 million isk for 3.333 hours of pve. 45 million isk per hour after you take the time to sort out what you need for what items in the lp store etc. High sec incursions are making 2xs that in straight isk and getting much much better lp on top of that.


I've already said my one problem with the update is the 4x multiplier for LP required on the losing side. I don't think a single Minnie or Gallente or Blood Raiser (hi mom!) has said they think the 4x multiplier is CORNFLAKES GREAT! I hope Hans agrees and I'll probably try to talk to him ingame later this week about it.

Quote:

Running the majors will not help the overall war effort as running minors both give equal vp as far as I know.


If you don't run the majors, they won't respawn... The key to plexing a system is having different ship types doing the plexing so you can simultaneously run minors, mediums and majors. We got Dal/Vard/Sis up to like 7% each with just a small 6 man crew doing this for a few hours.




Agreed. I don't think anyone likes the terrible LP store multipliers, even thought 22K LP for an SFI is pretty great. (:

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#94 - 2012-05-31 21:05:05 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:

If you got that isk from plexing then the shortest way for you to get that isk would be to run 10 major plexes. Assuming you could run them without ever having to travel to redock to repair and totally ideal conditions then it would take you 200 minutes. That is 3.333 hours of straight plexing. If you get 500 isk per lp - which I think would be quite hard in our horrible lp store, you would get 150 million isk for 3.333 hours of pve. 45 million isk per hour after you take the time to sort out what you need for what items in the lp store etc. High sec incursions are making 2xs that in straight isk and getting much much better lp on top of that.


I've already said my one problem with the update is the 4x multiplier for LP required on the losing side. I don't think a single Minnie or Gallente or Blood Raiser (hi mom!) has said they think the 4x multiplier is CORNFLAKES GREAT! I hope Hans agrees and I'll probably try to talk to him ingame later this week about it.

Quote:

Running the majors will not help the overall war effort as running minors both give equal vp as far as I know.


If you don't run the majors, they won't respawn... The key to plexing a system is having different ship types doing the plexing so you can simultaneously run minors, mediums and majors. We got Dal/Vard/Sis up to like 7% each with just a small 6 man crew doing this for a few hours.




Agreed. I don't think anyone likes the terrible LP store multipliers, even thought 22K LP for an SFI is pretty great. (:



Jones you are right as far as contesting a single system it will be quicker if you also run the majors. But overall you will get more vp toward flipping systems for your faction as a whole if you run one minor go to the next system run another etc.

I think the lp for the winning side if fine. If you can work your way to level five I think the current rewards reflect that effort. They will get the best deals on the items that are shared by all 4 militias which means there will be real economic competition.

For the losing side the 4x increase in cost multiplier is too much. They shouldn't have the lp prices increase past the pre inferno lp costs for items.

If for example amarr had their original base lp payouts then the market would actually have an effect. But people are only going to pay so much for an amarr faction ship before they decide a pirate one is better for the same price.

In sum, I am fine with economic incentives to fight for your faction lp discounts. But I am against punishments that just make it harder for the losing side to put up a fight i.e., the station lockouts.



Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2012-05-31 22:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
What makes people assume that ISK/LP values are static? CCP specifically introduced huge variations in supply to ensure this is not the case.

ISK/LP will change massively as imbalances continue and stockpiles get built up/run out - this is the automatic stabilizer that is intended to make sure that FW remains somewhat balanced.

It is still way too early to say anything about how prices will develop but Muad'Dib's extremely pessimist outlook will almost certainly prove to be wrong.

How long will people continue to stock up on Minmatar LP rewards before they start doubting their investments?
How long until existing stockpiles of navygeddons etc are depleted and prices start to skyrocket?

A world in which Gallente/Minmatar has dominated FW for months would be a world which has been starved for Amarr/Caldari LP store items for months and thus a world with a massive economic incentive to help Amarr/Caldari win.

Notice how the early supporters would profit massively as they get to take advantage of the beneficial multiplier before ISK/LP prices have adjusted to the freshly increased supply. Those that jump on the bandwagon later on will only further contribute to a crashing ISK/LP ratio and receive fewer and fewer rewards as time goes on.

Maybe one day traders will have sufficient stockpiles to maintain ISK/LP at a stable level for all factions (which would have to go along with coordinated wins/losses to make sure they can stock up and cash out in regular cycles) but I don't see us anywhere near that point for the time being.

.
San Severina
One Point 0
#96 - 2012-06-02 07:33:24 UTC
Nephilim Xeno wrote:
I have no idea what CCP wanted to accomplish with this patch but definatly not to fix FW in the long run.

Or they are far more stupid than i have ever imagined..

So they just went ahead, ignoring all well known imbalances, bugs and exploits, and implemented severe consequences into the FW system that pretty much screws over the numeric inferior side completly.

Eventually leaving them no way to earn isk, dock in low sec and in consequence no chance to retake any system.

So combined with the original FW system, that already was completly designed against amarr in terms of ship balance, npc balance, system distribution/layout and the fact that due to bad racial role play design amarr milita has always been less attractive to players than any other faction, thischanges only aim towards one goal which is to remove the amarr milita (or any milita on the loosing side) completly from the game.

And if this was not the intention of CCP then it can only mean that the people of CCP are some of the worst devs, game designers and game balancers in game history.
Its almost as if CCP does not know at all how their own game actually works.

My prediction is that once the new and shiny effect of this patch has worn off and the supply of suicidal noobs on both sides has dried up, FW will be in far worse state that it was before this patch.

Fcs on the amarr side will burn out fast and no one will run fleets anymore.
After that Amarr Milita will probably become mostly inactive with the exception of a few die hards that will not care about plexing (since the LP rewards are useless with this store prices) and try to roam around in small/fast gangs to pick off lone WTs.

After that caldari milita will have to fight the combined blobs of gallente and minmatar which they will probably not have any chance of beating and that will slowly bring them towards the same end as the amarr milita.

Minmatar and Gallente militas will be flooded with farming carebears and the amount of stealth bombers running around low sec would blot out all suns IF they were not cloaked most of the time ;)

And with the Empyrean Age (imo the best expansion eve ever had) will come to an end.

Unfortunatly the only effective way to communicate with CCP is through the cancel button in the account management which i have used 3 times recently.

And to those the still cling to the hope of CCP fixing the bugs, imbalances and the promise to keep iterating on FW i can only say:

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

CCP never thinks long term and in short terms this patch might actually look like a success.
So they will be pretty much done with FW and hardly do anything anymore.

It will be interesting to see how dust514 will turn out since there is unlike with eve a lot of competition out there.

But since CCPs strategy seems not to be to attract new players but instead just keep milking their existing ones by making them buy more accounts (T3 booster alt, capital/super cap alt, industry alt, neutral hauling alt) and now even more games (dust 514) it might work out somehow for them.

And with this my final eve rant is over and all the cry more, htfu, gtfo and adapt or die replies can come ;)


Excellent poast Nephilim.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-06-03 07:35:54 UTC
You know I just turned in about 4 Navy Omen Blue Prints (about 120 million isk per ship last I checked) and 303 Million isk worth of Minmatar tags. I got the LP and tags in about two weeks of plexing. Mostly quiet out of the way systems I can afford to plex in. And about 200 (give or take) killmails in the past month.

You are right Muad WE ARE DOOMED HOW ARE WE GOING TO AFFORD TO PVP ANYMORE?!

P.S. I have not run any faction war missions since inferno.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#98 - 2012-06-03 07:46:44 UTC
Stalking Mantis wrote:
I got the LP and tags in about two weeks of plexing.


just wondering how many hours you put into this, please be as accurate as you can thanks.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Stalking Mantis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-06-03 07:58:34 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Stalking Mantis wrote:
I got the LP and tags in about two weeks of plexing.


just wondering how many hours you put into this, please be as accurate as you can thanks.


Well I play eve around 5 or 6 hours a day with my new job. (10 hours on a weekend day). Of that time I would say about 2 hours a day of it was actively plexing for tags and LP. The rest was chasing minnies around missions/plexes with my corpmates.

I don't collect tags when with my corpmates as I usually have my poker face on checking scan/holding the warp in/applying ECM/raging on comms as and when needed.

Seriously look into it a regular major plex has about 30 to 40 million isk worth in tags. A major compound or strong hold can hold around 70 million isk in tags.

Not counting the 30 to 40K LP for capturing the major. at around 15 to 20 minutes to capture one I can turn out 100K LP an hour EASY. Add to that the tags and well you do the math.

The only issue is collecting them is a pain but hey if I am going to be in that plex as long as it takes to wind down might as well hit aproach/loot on the npc wrecks.

The game changed my friend bt it is by no means broken.

Amarr Liason Officer Extraordinare -->Check Out Amarrian Vengeance/Amarr FW History from 2011 to 2014 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=352629&find=unread
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-06-03 08:08:45 UTC
so i heard this is where i ask about bro-price on RF warp disruptors...?