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Hiding in Eve- Why We Cloak
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Dahren Caspo
Repo.
#161 - 2012-05-30 10:22:24 UTC
Very good ideas - intelligence gathering needs to be improved.

A man must have a code.
Lyissa Serine
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-05-30 19:05:53 UTC
Bump
Garonis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#163 - 2012-05-31 11:52:00 UTC
First.. a bump for an awesome thread!

Secondly, would it also make space bigger if we slowed everyone's warp speed down? I think with this, introduce new mods that would alter warp speed, with speed tied directly to the ships footprint, or signature. Perhaps allow us to set warp speed, so we can decide to warp slow and stealthy, or burn in hot and let everyone see us coming from far out.
As a random thought, covops ships would be slow by default.. as part of their "stealth" package.
Garonis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#164 - 2012-06-01 00:28:00 UTC
back to top
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#165 - 2012-06-02 01:18:23 UTC
Garonis wrote:
back to top

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Foofad
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2012-06-02 02:40:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Foofad
Overall I like your thoughts, but I want to make one correction. Active sensors are the short ranged ones, not passive.

Passive sensors, even today, are phenomenally sensitive. X-ray telescopes, spectrographs, and so on - all of these sophisticated pieces of scientific hardware that you read about - are passive sensors. And that's just what we've got today. Add a dash of space fantasy and there's no reason why a space ship's passive sensors shouldn't be able to detect the electromagnetic emissions of another space ship on the opposite end of a solar system.

Active sensors are needed for precise ranging that doesn't rely on assumptions and known factors. Active sensors are things like RADAR, LIDAR, Sonar, and so on. Active sensors are limited by the amount of energy that can be devoted to them. In order to detect something, an active sensor has to "ping" (like Sonar, echolocation, etc) and then listen in for a reflection. Lasers, like what are used in LIDAR, are very focused beams of light. As the distance grows however, they lose that focus. It's just like the cone of a flash light. As such, the energy requirement to detect something grows very rapidly as the distance increases.

So active sensors are something that you would see used for things like fire control, surface mapping, precise local navigation, missile or drone guidance, things like that. But active sensors are really not that useful over great distances, like if you're trying to detect an object or ship. This is why, for example, we are only just now mapping the surface of the moon with RADAR - we only recently had probes in orbit with that capability, and couldn't do it from Earth or an Earth orbiting satelite. Even WISE, the famed Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer which is known for detecting and mapping the trajectories of asteroids flying around our solar system, is just a fancy passive telescope. Meanwhile, NASA has a RADAR station that is capable of detecting individual raindrops in a cloud - but only to a range of two kilometers.

Just throwing that out there. It's an important distinction to make.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#167 - 2012-06-02 02:47:58 UTC
Foofad wrote:
Overall I like your thoughts, but I want to make one correction. Active sensors are the short ranged ones, not passive.

Passive sensors, even today, are phenomenally sensitive. X-ray telescopes, spectrographs, and so on - all of these sophisticated pieces of scientific hardware that you read about - are passive sensors. And that's just what we've got today. Add a dash of space fantasy and there's no reason why a space ship's passive sensors shouldn't be able to detect the electromagnetic emissions of another space ship on the opposite end of a solar system.

Active sensors are needed for precise ranging that doesn't rely on assumptions and known factors. Active sensors are things like RADAR, LIDAR, Sonar, and so on. Active sensors are limited by the amount of energy that can be devoted to them. In order to detect something, an active sensor has to "ping" (like Sonar, echolocation, etc) and then listen in for a reflection. Lasers, like what are used in LIDAR, are very focused beams of light. As the distance grows however, they lose that focus. It's just like the cone of a flash light. As such, the energy requirement to detect something grows very rapidly as the distance increases.

So active sensors are something that you would see used for things like fire control, surface mapping, precise local navigation, missile or drone guidance, things like that. But active sensors are really not that useful over great distances, like if you're trying to detect an object or ship. This is why, for example, we are only just now mapping the surface of the moon with RADAR - we only recently had probes in orbit with that capability, and couldn't do it from Earth or an Earth orbiting satelite. Even WISE, the famed Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer which is known for detecting and mapping the trajectories of asteroids flying around our solar system, is just a fancy passive telescope. Meanwhile, NASA has a RADAR station that is capable of detecting individual raindrops in a cloud - but only to a range of two kilometers.

Just throwing that out there. It's an important distinction to make.


I believe that the differentiating of passive and active was for gameplay balance. Passive does not reveal your position - it is just listening and at long-range like S.E.T.I. with murky results. Active is transmitting and giving more accurate, short-range results but reveals your position, Like a sonar ping as you mentioned.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#168 - 2012-06-02 03:06:55 UTC
Foofad wrote:
Overall I like your thoughts, but I want to make one correction. Active sensors are the short ranged ones, not passive.

Passive sensors, even today, are phenomenally sensitive. X-ray telescopes, spectrographs, and so on - all of these sophisticated pieces of scientific hardware that you read about - are passive sensors. And that's just what we've got today. Add a dash of space fantasy and there's no reason why a space ship's passive sensors shouldn't be able to detect the electromagnetic emissions of another space ship on the opposite end of a solar system.

Active sensors are needed for precise ranging that doesn't rely on assumptions and known factors. Active sensors are things like RADAR, LIDAR, Sonar, and so on. Active sensors are limited by the amount of energy that can be devoted to them. In order to detect something, an active sensor has to "ping" (like Sonar, echolocation, etc) and then listen in for a reflection. Lasers, like what are used in LIDAR, are very focused beams of light. As the distance grows however, they lose that focus. It's just like the cone of a flash light. As such, the energy requirement to detect something grows very rapidly as the distance increases.

So active sensors are something that you would see used for things like fire control, surface mapping, precise local navigation, missile or drone guidance, things like that. But active sensors are really not that useful over great distances, like if you're trying to detect an object or ship. This is why, for example, we are only just now mapping the surface of the moon with RADAR - we only recently had probes in orbit with that capability, and couldn't do it from Earth or an Earth orbiting satelite. Even WISE, the famed Wide-field Infrared Survey Explorer which is known for detecting and mapping the trajectories of asteroids flying around our solar system, is just a fancy passive telescope. Meanwhile, NASA has a RADAR station that is capable of detecting individual raindrops in a cloud - but only to a range of two kilometers.

Just throwing that out there. It's an important distinction to make.


Very good point- duely noted. I'll be sure to incorporate this into future designs. :)

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Andre II
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#169 - 2012-06-03 20:05:47 UTC
I almost cried when I read this post.. It was everything I had been hoping for when I joined EVE. I've only been playing for a year and have learned to stick to high sec space. I believe all these changes should primarily effect low and null sec space. This could be explain by low and null sec space having a lack on Racial empire senors present. I may be one of the few players who kinda wants to find my own bubble in EVE. I wish to be able to live in null and low sec alone. Currently it's impossible for anyone can find you. It's seems CCP's directed the theme of EVE towards finding space combat rather than becoming what you want. they advertise possible career paths but in actuality it's most difficult unless you're with a large corp. It seems every plays for like a tactical battle field of tanks. Anyone can simply look from a bird's eye view and see other vehicles and unless you have specific camouflage you will be found. I think CCP should really look into incorporating these game mechanics in. Space is suppose to be large and mysterious, virtually the big dark unknown. CCP's managed to install a street light in every system making it virtually unable to just be by yourself.

Oh and I really like the idea of specialized cloaks and stealth modules. +1

CCP PUT THIS IN ALREADY!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=47868
Pretax Metron
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2012-06-06 07:55:07 UTC
Dont let this thread die
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2012-06-06 10:11:57 UTC
Actually, I liked the attention to detail in your OP as well as the replies, I got the impression that you're a very articulate and intelligent person. As others have stated, this thread definitely belongs in F&I sub-forum though.

Then I saw this reply from you to another player reading this thread and quite frankly, I think it's rude and egotistical. You could have easily refrained from being insulting and replied with a logical concise explanation that showed how it could also be used as a defensive option.


Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
In summary:
You want to be able to sneak up on people and gank them. Sicne EVE won't let you "sneak up" becuase of local, you AFK cloak so they can't really know when you are on or not. You hope they will eventually assume you are AFK, and go out and PVE or mine while you are in local.... so you can come back, sneak up on them and gank them.


So, the answer to the question in the title is what everyone knows.

Your solution is to make it easy to hide so that it is easier to sneak up on people and gank them.

This is simple-minded 2 dimensional thinking where you have not through the consequences of your actions.

1) We make it easy to hide and sneak up on people and gank them.
2) People doing things like PVE and mining get ganked.
3) People stop doing all the things that get them ganked.
4) From lack fairly sae things to do in low/null, people move back to high sec.
5) You are right back to not being easy to gank people.


So, my tl;dr version. Make it easier to hide and sneak up on people to gank them, people stop doing anything that would make it easy to sneak up on them and gank them.


What % of the population lives in wormholes?


Players such as yourself positively REEK of carebear.

Your one dimensional thinking is pathetic and your lack of creativity even more so. Clearly you don't have the vision capable of contemplating the idea that just as many tools to hide/evade detection would be included as there would be tools to find and attack players.

So TL; DR: you're only focusing on the things that you fear most: being ganked by players who are far smarter than you, which is probably the whole of Eve.


Anyway, I still like the premise of the ideas presented, just this shallow display of sanctimoniousness attitude from you kinda kills my desire to show support for this.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Phaedra Stargazer
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#172 - 2012-06-06 20:37:34 UTC
+1 support
MetaMorpheus Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2012-06-06 22:05:22 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
In addition to information, sharing it is just as important. Where Corps and Alliances will really benefit is in the sharing of information. If you're in a gang and you have a CovOps pilot with you, what if everything his sensors detected showed up on your tactical overlay? Now he truly is your eyes and ears for your whole gang! What if your ships could fire their weapons at targets he acquired, even though the targets are out of your lock range (but not weapons range)? Indirect fire, so to speak!


This is essentially what an AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System), used buy the US and some of it's allies, does. In-air commanders have near total access to everything in the air for 400 miles, and can track targets and direct friendlies to those targets, as well as feed targets to weapons systems on friendlies that would otherwise be outside of their own sensor range.

In addition, because the friendly fighters are depending on the AWACS for sensor information, they can turn off their own active sensor equipment, thereby rendering themselves more stealthy to electronic detection.

The drawback is that the active sensor signal falloff is greater than the signal's usable range, so enemies with the right equipment, outside of the AWACS sensor range, could find the AWACS by following that falloff to its origin.

I think similar mechanics could be implemented under the system you propose. this way, a smart commander would have to employ a flight of protectors for the AWACS; it would not be some stand-alone, unsee-able untouchable ship somewhere in the system. Your ability to track targets (both # and range), hand them off to friendly offensive packages, mitigate your own signature, etc can all be governed by skill level and meta level of the mods/rigs used.

Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
What if you're two systems away but an enemy blob arrives and your Alliance has regional and local static sensors installed in that system? You're able to look on the map and notice increased activity two systems over in the past 4 hours and are able to pack up your mining op in time to make it to safety.


Following the same AWACS analogy, ships could be specialized to provide that "1-2 system out" sensor range and deployed during battles or defense, giving the deployers warning of reinforcements on the way; likewise, those reinforcements could have with them another such specialized ship that is dedicated to hiding, corrupting, or otherwise rendering that sensor data unreliable to the operator, so that what he perceives as a flight of reinforcement frigates is actually a flight of BC's, or a real flight of frigates appears as a moving asteroid field.

I've been reading the EVE forums for a couple of years now. This is the most thought out and serious suggestion I have ever seen on this forum. Excellent.

That monocle looks ridiculous. 
Tubrav Sadarts
Viscous Logistics
#174 - 2012-06-06 22:21:14 UTC
I hope someone from CCP reads this thread, points it to someone high up in the decision chain and says 'look, we should really do this'. It would put the 'space' back into 'spaceship game'. As has been said many times in this thread, EVE doesn't feel 'empty' and unknown when you can jump in and see *everyone* in the system, and all the information associated with that.

+1'ed, and really hoping that this makes it into the game in some way or another. Even better, hoping for a Dev Post acknowledging they like this idea too...

My Idea for improving T2 Invention!
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#175 - 2012-06-07 00:53:56 UTC
MetaMorpheus Jones wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
In addition to information, sharing it is just as important. Where Corps and Alliances will really benefit is in the sharing of information. If you're in a gang and you have a CovOps pilot with you, what if everything his sensors detected showed up on your tactical overlay? Now he truly is your eyes and ears for your whole gang! What if your ships could fire their weapons at targets he acquired, even though the targets are out of your lock range (but not weapons range)? Indirect fire, so to speak!


This is essentially what an AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System), used buy the US and some of it's allies, does. In-air commanders have near total access to everything in the air for 400 miles, and can track targets and direct friendlies to those targets, as well as feed targets to weapons systems on friendlies that would otherwise be outside of their own sensor range.

In addition, because the friendly fighters are depending on the AWACS for sensor information, they can turn off their own active sensor equipment, thereby rendering themselves more stealthy to electronic detection.

The drawback is that the active sensor signal falloff is greater than the signal's usable range, so enemies with the right equipment, outside of the AWACS sensor range, could find the AWACS by following that falloff to its origin.

I think similar mechanics could be implemented under the system you propose. this way, a smart commander would have to employ a flight of protectors for the AWACS; it would not be some stand-alone, unsee-able untouchable ship somewhere in the system. Your ability to track targets (both # and range), hand them off to friendly offensive packages, mitigate your own signature, etc can all be governed by skill level and meta level of the mods/rigs used.

Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
What if you're two systems away but an enemy blob arrives and your Alliance has regional and local static sensors installed in that system? You're able to look on the map and notice increased activity two systems over in the past 4 hours and are able to pack up your mining op in time to make it to safety.


Following the same AWACS analogy, ships could be specialized to provide that "1-2 system out" sensor range and deployed during battles or defense, giving the deployers warning of reinforcements on the way; likewise, those reinforcements could have with them another such specialized ship that is dedicated to hiding, corrupting, or otherwise rendering that sensor data unreliable to the operator, so that what he perceives as a flight of reinforcement frigates is actually a flight of BC's, or a real flight of frigates appears as a moving asteroid field.

I've been reading the EVE forums for a couple of years now. This is the most thought out and serious suggestion I have ever seen on this forum. Excellent.


Great post providing additional detail. I am aware of how AWACS operates and I couldn't agree more- it would be a great addition to the game to build that capability into the system.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#176 - 2012-06-07 00:58:37 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Actually, I liked the attention to detail in your OP as well as the replies, I got the impression that you're a very articulate and intelligent person. As others have stated, this thread definitely belongs in F&I sub-forum though.

Then I saw this reply from you to another player reading this thread and quite frankly, I think it's rude and egotistical. You could have easily refrained from being insulting and replied with a logical concise explanation that showed how it could also be used as a defensive option.


Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
NARDAC wrote:
In summary:
You want to be able to sneak up on people and gank them. Sicne EVE won't let you "sneak up" becuase of local, you AFK cloak so they can't really know when you are on or not. You hope they will eventually assume you are AFK, and go out and PVE or mine while you are in local.... so you can come back, sneak up on them and gank them.


So, the answer to the question in the title is what everyone knows.

Your solution is to make it easy to hide so that it is easier to sneak up on people and gank them.

This is simple-minded 2 dimensional thinking where you have not through the consequences of your actions.

1) We make it easy to hide and sneak up on people and gank them.
2) People doing things like PVE and mining get ganked.
3) People stop doing all the things that get them ganked.
4) From lack fairly sae things to do in low/null, people move back to high sec.
5) You are right back to not being easy to gank people.


So, my tl;dr version. Make it easier to hide and sneak up on people to gank them, people stop doing anything that would make it easy to sneak up on them and gank them.


What % of the population lives in wormholes?


Players such as yourself positively REEK of carebear.

Your one dimensional thinking is pathetic and your lack of creativity even more so. Clearly you don't have the vision capable of contemplating the idea that just as many tools to hide/evade detection would be included as there would be tools to find and attack players.

So TL; DR: you're only focusing on the things that you fear most: being ganked by players who are far smarter than you, which is probably the whole of Eve.


Anyway, I still like the premise of the ideas presented, just this shallow display of sanctimoniousness attitude from you kinda kills my desire to show support for this.


Yeah, you're right. Poor show on my part. But at the same time, I have a very hard time giving someone the benefit of the doubt when they can so easily find all of the 'problems' with the idea as it applies to themselves, but aren't creative enough to envision how it would also help them and/or the design would include them in a positive aspect.

The selfish and self centered players are what makes up the core of the carebear legions in Eve. They only think of themselves and are always certain that everyone is out to ruin 'their' game. Carebears are anathema to Eve and they are anathema to me.

Intelligence shouldn't be free.   Mining, reloaded.   ADDICTED.

MetaMorpheus Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2012-06-07 04:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: MetaMorpheus Jones
Rather than implement this as a radical change to the EVE universe, and because it is based almost entirely on equipment and skill (rather than a "fix" per se of a game mechanic), this could be introduced in phases over time, as newly developed technology, but based on the existing scanner and mapping technology in the EVE universe today.

So rather than splash eve with this radical change in sensor usage and ability in one expansion, simply add new modules here and there over the course of three or four expansions - letting the technology itself have its introduction into the EVE universe as increments of skill, modules, even implants, just as tech gets smaller, more capable, and more prevalent in RL ~ and just so, too, it is very often born for military purpose. This tech could start as a military boat-only option, but evolve to mining operations based, or transport based, or civil defense based - sensor arrays and abilities.

That monocle looks ridiculous. 
David Cedarbridge
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-06-07 06:13:18 UTC
What is Dscan and what are scanner probes and why would I want either of those things? In related news, what are all of these astrometrics skills I've trained and what can I do with them?
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#179 - 2012-06-07 06:44:43 UTC
Having to work this hard simply to find other players would not work for very much other than to make the game seem even emptier than it is. Just the fact that it takes this much space to explain the idea kills it.
0ccupy 4-4
Doomheim
#180 - 2012-06-07 06:55:04 UTC
Make it so that the thousands of inevitable nomads can subvert 0.0 power blocs.