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Ship balancing, one ship at a time

Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#1 - 2012-06-01 09:54:37 UTC
Hi there,

I have yet another approach for the ongoing ship balancing that is going on right now and I hope it will make thing a little easier on the long run.

With Inferno we got four frigate class ships everybody knows changed and given a role suggestion. So far so good.
Now I do not complain about the changes and there is a but coming.

For the lower tiers and for the tech1 ships of all classes you havent yet changed, I would suggest that you don't try to fixiate on roles so much for a ship to fall into.
The ships when they were still on the drawing board must have had a concept phase they went through long before New Eden was brought to life.
The tier system also came from that time, when a new pilot of New Eden was given 50.000 skillpoints to start with and the time to skill for a higher ship class took some time.
New Eden came a long way since then.
New ships came into the world with specific roles, special abilities to enforce thier roles and yet all the tech1 ship classes remained mostly untouched for variety and freedom how to fit and what to make with them.

Don't try to push those ships into roles but give them ship bonuses instead. We already have the tech2 ships with thier roles. The tech1 ships and ship classes shouldn't be forced into roles they should or shouldn't accomplish, they should remain versatile and still have the freedom to be used and flown in different ways.

Most of the tech1 ships just need some values changed for increased cpu, powergrid, capacitor and added or rearranged slot layouts.

Keeping that in mind, don't forget the backstory of the three Empires of New Eden.

I know that most of the kids that came here don't ever have heard the story of the three Empires of New Eden and the runaway slaves.
Maybe you should have a look at them, when you take a look at each ship and ask yourself,

does x ship really mirror the manufacturer (and Empire) it came from?
did you read the information on the ship's information sheet?
did we make a mistake somewhere when we gave barbaric slaves unmatched superpowered ships and modules that do not mirror the backstory of New Eden?
does x ship really need more firepower then it already can have?
when we give x-class of ships more firepower, will that outclass higher and lower classes of ships (again)?

You can add firepower here and there and give it some days and youll get a cry for another shipclass in the need of a buff in firepower or tank or both.
I think increasing x stat of any kind isn't the only answer because it will only leads to a spiral pattern that only goes up.

Increase firepower here, some shipclass cries for more tank to compensate / counter, then repeat over and over and in 2015 a tech1 cruiser will do 2000 dps to counter battlecruisers 2.000.000.000 ehp and so forth.

Don't get me wrong, the ship overhaul is long overdue, there is no doubt in that.
Some ships need an increase in firepower, some actually dont but need more firepower but maybe another slot and some increased cpu and powergrid.

Amarr tech1 cruisers will benefit the most from increased firepower and increased capacitor + ship bonus (not role bonus).
I cant say anything about increasing the powergrid for them, since I dont fly them.

The Moa and the Thorax would benefit from increased powergrid to 1300 base powergrid (all needed engineering skills at V) and +50 cpu for the both of them.
Another medium slot for the Moa and another high slot for the Thorax (no turret, no launcher hardpoint) wouldn't hurt them either.
For the other cruisers and ship classes you do the math.

Don't try to force tech1 ships to only be fit in one way to be competitive (role specific) and let the pilot decide how they want to use a ship.
I can think of many ways to fit a Moa (for example), even as a mining boat (and yes the Osprey has a larger mining yield per minute).

If you think that for x ship it would be too much to add more cpu or powergrid, maybe some modules need a little adjustment to be able to fit them on x ship (ship class?).

For example, it escapes me why a Brutix (battlecruiser class) is not able to fit neutron blaster II' without powergrid and cpu modules and maybe an armor repair unit on it.
For what ship were the neutron blasters designed to fit on?
Did they were designed to make jokes about the Gallente?

Another example,
the Scorpions target sensor strenght is 93.8mm (related electronic skills all V) on a ship that states it is technological superior to any other kind of ship in New Eden.

Now lets look at a different ship of the same class and tier, the Typhoon:
The signature resolution on that slave boat is 143.8mm and according to the background someone forgot along the way is from barbaric runaway slaves and would suggest it is technological inferior to the Scorpion.

Is that ridiculous low signature resolution another joke about the technological inferior Caldari?
Did someone put the values to the wrong ship?

Lets have a look at the barbaric runaway slave ships:
We have have 3 ship classes and lacking two ship classes:
Small frigate class (rifter,..), large frigate class (rupture, stabber,..), cruiser class (Hurricane,..), battlecruiser class (Tempest, Typhoon, Mealstrom).

And some nice pirate faction ships that fit perfectly in those classes:
Large frigate (Cynabel), battlecruiser class (Machariel)

Now what would those slave ships and pirate faction ships all in common?
They fast, dictate range in any situation, deal any flavor of damage they see fit at any range they see fit, immune to capacitor warfare, ability to always use the largest ships class guns with no sacrifice to fit large buffer tanks and gank.
And the lowest signature radii ontop of that to not get hit by anything.
(Hm there was a word, an attribute for that kind of too much power but I cant remember it....)

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
#2 - 2012-06-01 10:12:30 UTC
Advice
Always make to easy for someone if you want to get them to understand, accept, buy or sell your idea or product.

Now - look at your wall of text

Is it easy to read and understand?

I am aware of my own ignorance and have checked my emotional quotient - thanks for asking

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#3 - 2012-06-01 11:27:03 UTC
Maybe my intended audience for my idea is the team that makes the ship balancing and not the common forum troll you find here way too often.

My idea here is for CCP which may or not help them easy up the process of ship balancing and other things to look into along the way.
I gave some examples and some general ideas for them to consider, CCP may also choose to read, not read, respond, not respond, take into account or dismiss any all or none of the above.

Reading is a choice not must.
If you choose to respond it is also a choice not a must.

If it is too long to read, don't read it Blink simple choices.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#4 - 2012-06-01 12:14:15 UTC
I read it, you're not wrong... there's certainly some huge problems with the ship balancing.

So what was your main point? To redo T1 ships so they are less role specific?
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#5 - 2012-06-01 17:41:03 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
I read it, you're not wrong... there's certainly some huge problems with the ship balancing.

So what was your main point? To redo T1 ships so they are less role specific?


I think a complete redoing is also not the answer here. The ships are already out there and they have bonuses on them.

For the frigate ship class they are on the right path.

The idea is to not make all ships of New Eden combat ships, but also not take away the ability to do so. Also CCP should consider not making tons of roles - we have tech2 ships that have roles, which some of them cannot accomplish.

Give them a ship class bonus, like the Condor,
Caldari frigate class bonus:

Fit 2 bonus launchers with increased launcher damage and range, no turret slot, but keeps the third highslot

Bantam,
Caldari frigate class bonus:
2x turrets slot with increased mining yield and cpu bonus decrease in using mining laser, maybe a bonused shield tranport
+ 2 or 3 light drones

(Well do we really want to mine in a frigate that pops from incoming NPC fire is another thing to consider)

Heron,
Caldari frigate class bonus:
Bonus time for scanning the system, more defense abilities, little to no combat abilties
(It stands to reason, if the Heron needs a change at all)

And so on, you get the idea I guess and hope. Same goes for the cruiser class, battlecruiser class, battleship class, which will get a ship class bonus or simply inherit them from what they already have.

Some bonuses need to be changed in a way that will benefit the ships. From what I heard and read here about the Amarr cruiser class, they all suffer in firepower and other things in their shipclass.

If we take the new frigates into account as a baseline, CCP gave them a role but in a way took away a little freedom.

Roles are all good but keep in mind that we currenty have insanly expensive ships in all kinds of flavors and roles.

When you go looking at the other ships, give them ship class bonuses, not roles - we will give them roles over time.

Don't forget that only 50% of the hybrid turrets are done for now. Railguns still have to be tweaked and the ammunition except antimatter needs to be buffed and not decreased further at range.

The Moa with 5 250mm railguns, loaded with iron charges has the firepower of a frigate that forgot to fit weapons to it. And don't get me started on how you plan to get that damage applied with that tracking Evil

Things to consider

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-06-01 17:56:08 UTC
The problem with making all the T1 ships more generalist ships is that then you have no central methodology to ship balancing. If you say all the T1 ships should be able to be used in general and not specialized for a specific role, then how do you decide what ship will have more armor or more damage or more utility slots? Just a fuzzy "yea that looks good" approach?

I hope CCP does not do that.

Also, to the lore of it, a company like Lai Dai wouldn't build a ship just to be a generalist, they would identify a role that the ship should fill, or roles, and then design around that. That is how systems engineers work. Develop a requirement, design to meet the requirement.

I think the right way to go is to identify the base roles of ships in Eve. CCP has done that with Combat, Assault, Bombardment, and Support.

Then they should balance all T1 ships to be for one of those roles.

Then T2 are subsets of those roles, like EWAR support Vs Logistics Support, or big tank combat ship (bruiser) vs short range DPS combat ship (brawler). So see my point?

So it would look like this:
Support Cruiser, like the Blackbird, is designed to provide all around support, the two variants of it in T2 form, the Falcon and the Rook provide two different variations on ECM support, so more specialized.

Oh wait, thats how it works now....

So all they have to do is fix the T1 ships to be "balanced" by role instead of by tier....

Which is what they are doing.

What you suggest makes all T1 ships basically the same, with different 3D models. -1
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#7 - 2012-06-01 18:07:46 UTC
You didn't read my first post, shame on you!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-06-01 18:18:40 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
You didn't read my first post, shame on you!


Oh yes I did. And I want those five minutes back.

Your wall of text is incoherent, incongruent, and inconsistent. Your idea is based on a flawed perception of the game and how it works as well as a flawed perception of how CCP plans to rebalance ships.

THe best I can come up with is that you are saying "+1 CCP for rebalancing ships, keep it up!" and then you go on and on about things that make zero sense.

elitatwo wrote:
The idea is to not make all ships of New Eden combat ships, but also not take away the ability to do so. Also CCP should consider not making tons of roles - we have tech2 ships that have roles, which some of them cannot accomplish.

For the lower tiers and for the tech1 ships of all classes you havent yet changed, I would suggest that you don't try to fixiate on roles so much for a ship to fall into.


o.0
What?

elitatwo wrote:
Don't try to push those ships into roles but give them ship bonuses instead.

Bonuses for what purpose? If they have no role, why give them a bonus? How can you decide if the bonus is right or enough, or too much if you have no DESIRED END STATE in mind?

elitatwo wrote:
did we make a mistake somewhere when we gave barbaric slaves unmatched superpowered ships and modules that do not mirror the backstory of New Eden?


I lol'ed.

So you don't like "Winmatar" ships.

Often times in history, the society which is less constrained by normative bias is more able to adapt and thrive. In this case, the barbaric slaves are able to think outside the box and "speed tanks" are born.

/lore

If you don't like the way the game is balanced with regards to racial ships, give an example. The Minmatar have some things they are really good at, but they are also harder to fly than say a Caldari who doesn't have to worry about range and tracking speed at all usually. The Minny dread does the most damage, but it also takes split skills and longer time to train for.

In summary, your argument is fail.

I agree that ships need rebalancing and some things need more attention, but your wall of text is so convoluted and ill presented that I cannot get behind it in any meaningful way.
Jenn Ji'e'toh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-06-03 23:24:17 UTC
I really can't make much sense out of your wall of text, and i'm more inclined to agree with loius woo. One point I want to make is simply this a tech 1 ship isn't just some ship you fly. It's something you experiment with, and it doesn't cost a small fortune. It also give players a chance to decided what they want to fly. So by effecting making them the "generalist" how can a player decided he want's to fly an interceptor. This is probably the biggest problem with the teir system. By implementing it your force only certain ships to be good so there for the player only gets experience in that kind of ship until he gets to tech 2 in which case he's way outa his league, and if he does get to a tech 2 ship and realizes he doesn't like the combat style now he has to spend even more time to train up for another ship. For a frigate this typically means taking another 10 days of training to try out the next one.