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Incursions VG - Pure DPS or Utility

Author
Banroh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-05 09:17:16 UTC
This started bothering me a little, it doesnt fit into my common sence.

Currently I fly 2 accounts, most of the time with a combination of Bhaalgorn and Loki.
I feel more useful this way and most of fleets like the 30k ish webs (cough, vindicators). Insta popping most frigates when they spawn and all that, In my opinion it beats the pathetic original 14-15km faction web range which most of the times wont get used.

So ive been hearing that pure dps ships are simply better than having VERY effective web range. Whats your opinion? Whats the chance of 7 machariels (for example) popping targets fast if they all got one web on 14-15km range? Or should they have me boosting while webbing stuff for them, even with my pointless loki dps.

My loki fit is abit odd and experimental, Ive changed my defensive subsystem into warfare processor, which means im sort of ongrid booster with only web range ganglink + mindlink. This is obviously pointless with offgrid booster (I dont see these much). But so far ive got other fleet members of mine with faction webs webbing into 20km+, which is more like it, dont you think? Utility again.

Not to speak of the fact that my bhaal is also webbing 2x into 30km and loki almost 40km with 3x webs (most of the time i web at 30 tho). This means most of the primary targets will be webbed fully when they spawn.

TLDR: Should i stop being useful? Or am I just hoping to be useful?
Aamrr
#2 - 2011-10-05 09:57:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
As you stated, gang link bonuses will give federation navy stasis webs a 20km range. This is more than adequate -- there's no point in webbing ships outside of the effective range of your DPS. Vindicators, for example, have enough trouble hitting targets at their orbit distance, much less when you web them before they can close. Making them shoot into falloff isn't doing them any favors.

Nightmares, Vindicators, Machariels, and Paladins can all accommodate at least two webs. When they're doing the webbing, they'll know how long a target has been slowed down and will be able to more accurately judge which targets to shoot at. Even if you ignore this factor, one loki can't make up for having two webs on every DPS ship in the fleet -- particularly when those DPS ships will do anywhere upwards of twice as much DPS as the loki would.

Edit: Of course, good luck coordinating a public fleet into fitting that kind of ewar on their DPS ships. This is really more the purview of well-coordinated private fleets that understand what's necessary and how to achieve it. This means reliable gang link bonuses -- something that you apparently don't have the luxury of.
Lugalzagezi666
#3 - 2011-10-05 10:57:16 UTC
Getting good fleet together isnt that hard these days - even in public channels. Many people /fc/ have their own OFFGRID boosting alts too. Only coordinating remote sebos and links seems harder.

And you dont need more than 1 long range webber for vanguards - it should be bhaal btw, loki means 500 less dps for fleet.
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#4 - 2011-10-05 13:19:30 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
one loki can't make up for having two webs on every DPS ship in the fleet -- particularly when those DPS ships will do anywhere upwards of twice as much DPS as the loki would..

This is spot on. The myth of the dedicated webber for vanguards has gone on for too long. They waste a dps slot when all (turret) ships can fit to do near full damage without the help of anyone else.
Aamrr
#5 - 2011-10-05 13:38:28 UTC
JackStraw56 wrote:
Aamrr wrote:
one loki can't make up for having two webs on every DPS ship in the fleet -- particularly when those DPS ships will do anywhere upwards of twice as much DPS as the loki would..

This is spot on. The myth of the dedicated webber for vanguards has gone on for too long. They waste a dps slot when all (turret) ships can fit to do near full damage without the help of anyone else.


Anyone besides a gang link booster, anyway -- but they don't count since they sit off grid, don't count against your site payout and can be flown essentially AFK.
Goose99
#6 - 2011-10-05 13:46:05 UTC
Fit TCs in addition to webs. A typical Mach or Bhaalgorn have the 5 mids to fit 2 webs as well as 3 tracking scripted TCs (30% tracking for t2, 35% for faction). A good fleet hits well even without waiting for webs to slow targets down first. Otherwise, applied dmg is no better than the mediocre legions that's been proliferating recently.
Aamrr
#7 - 2011-10-05 13:48:24 UTC
You're obviously speaking from the context of an armor fleet, but even shield Machariels can get respectable tracking while still fitting two webs. Metastasis rigs aren't quite on par with tracking computers, but they're a close enough approximation that the higher DPS (more gyrostabilizers) can compensate.

Dual-web Nightmares can and should fit at least one tracking computer -- and again, metastasis rigs can stand in without too much loss of efficacy.
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#8 - 2011-10-05 13:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
Tracking computers obviously help, but webs are the difference maker once stuff gets close and orbiting. Putting 2+ webs on a frig makes a MUCH bigger difference than increasing your tracking 30-100% (1-3 tracking computers).
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-05 13:53:34 UTC
A single web on a vindi is ~4.5 times as effective as a web on a loki (it would be exactly 4 times as effective were it not for stacking penalties on webs). With a loki in fleet you can web out past 20km, and overheating with webs is actually viable given how long they last before burning out. Basically the vindi is not only 3 times the DPS of the loki, it has 4 times the webbing power Cool
Songbird
#10 - 2011-10-09 17:06:44 UTC
Vindi webs might be effective since blasters can't shoot much farther than web range anyway.

A pulse laser BS OTOH has anywhere from 65 to 17 optimal. If you wait until the frigate comes into the 20 km range(that a bonused web has) you're wasting time. Any self respecting fleet will shoot everything while it's still 30-60 out. A fleet that is paying attention(shooting the webbed target) and has a dedicated webber should 1 shot all frigates.

Now my abaddon has 4.3 secs ROF, a webber is 5 secs ROF. In a good fleet I will shoot each frigate once and I'll expect it to die.

However in a ragtag fleet of macho macho man I'd expect that 7 people shooting at 7 different targets should bring their own webs.
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-10-10 16:55:31 UTC
Songbird wrote:
Vindi webs might be effective since blasters can't shoot much farther than web range anyway.

A pulse laser BS OTOH has anywhere from 65 to 17 optimal. If you wait until the frigate comes into the 20 km range(that a bonused web has) you're wasting time. Any self respecting fleet will shoot everything while it's still 30-60 out. A fleet that is paying attention(shooting the webbed target) and has a dedicated webber should 1 shot all frigates.

Now my abaddon has 4.3 secs ROF, a webber is 5 secs ROF. In a good fleet I will shoot each frigate once and I'll expect it to die.

However in a ragtag fleet of macho macho man I'd expect that 7 people shooting at 7 different targets should bring their own webs.

There are 2 ranges in vanguards: web range, and how the hell can you not hit that without a web range. Pulse BSs should NOT need webs on a target 40+ km away, at least not one that actually needs to die to complete the site. Also, 7 people shooting 7 targets would be AMAZING for a fleet, where the biggest problem is people tripping over each other shooting the same things (for NCOs anyway, for OTAs you really only need to shoot a total of 3 ships anyway, none of which )
Rens Cheque
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-10 19:38:50 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Songbird wrote:
Vindi webs might be effective since blasters can't shoot much farther than web range anyway.

A pulse laser BS OTOH has anywhere from 65 to 17 optimal. If you wait until the frigate comes into the 20 km range(that a bonused web has) you're wasting time. Any self respecting fleet will shoot everything while it's still 30-60 out. A fleet that is paying attention(shooting the webbed target) and has a dedicated webber should 1 shot all frigates.

Now my abaddon has 4.3 secs ROF, a webber is 5 secs ROF. In a good fleet I will shoot each frigate once and I'll expect it to die.

However in a ragtag fleet of macho macho man I'd expect that 7 people shooting at 7 different targets should bring their own webs.

There are 2 ranges in vanguards: web range, and how the hell can you not hit that without a web range. Pulse BSs should NOT need webs on a target 40+ km away, at least not one that actually needs to die to complete the site. Also, 7 people shooting 7 targets would be AMAZING for a fleet, where the biggest problem is people tripping over each other shooting the same things (for NCOs anyway, for OTAs you really only need to shoot a total of 3 ships anyway, none of which )

That is correct. Songbird quite wrong.