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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

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Armone Melchezidek
Last Rites.
#241 - 2012-05-26 03:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Armone Melchezidek
Alticus C Bear wrote:
Armone Melchezidek wrote:
Thanks for the Proteus PVE Buff! High or Low I don't give a rip.


[Proteus, Drone Combat Explorer]

Corpus A-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus A-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Centum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

'Thurifer' Large Capacitor Battery I
Gistum B-Type 10MN Afterburner
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

Drone Link Augmentor II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Core Scanner Probe
Salvager II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
[Empty Rig slot]

Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Proteus Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Proteus Defensive - Nanobot Injector


Garde II x4
Hobgoblin II x5
Warden II x4

I would honestly drop the turrets for some utility as they are completely unnecessary.


Those sentry rigs stack very badly use another damage mod for the cap power relay and then use cap rigs.


Thanks for the advice, however I'm cap stable with reps, hardeners, and AB so not sure why you would want to ruin the fit by making it more cap stable than it already is (the turrets are not even being used). My guards now get 578 dps with that fit so there is no way I'd drop a rig. I guess you've never seen an ishtar with 2 sentry rigs (which is what this ship just replaced). Again, thanks for the advice, but my point was only to show the new possibilities of the drone mods, not to get advice. I still love my Ishtar but this ship now does outdps's my Ishtar build that I ran with pre-patch and it always did outtank it if you knew what you were doing. The Proteus is 5x more versitile than an Ishtar and now it has the damage projection it always needed. AGAIN, THANK YOU CCP!!

EDIT: Ok, I see what you were saying and I checked it and it would raise my dps from 575 to 589. I'm currently checking my cap-stability to see how that part of it worked out. Sorry I misread.

EDIT FOR POSTERITY: YOU SIR, ARE A GENIOUS!!
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#242 - 2012-05-28 12:00:08 UTC
SURE, 19% IS USEABLE NOW. IS THERE ANY REASON AT ALL IT CAN'T BE 22% THO, LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE GETS FOR THEIR RACIAL WEAPON MOD? I MEAN, I'D STILL USE AUTOCANNONS IF GYRO'S ONLY GAVE ME 19% AND NOT 22%, I DON'T SEE WHY ONE RACE SHOULD BE WEAKER THOUGH? AND THIS IS FROM A PLAYER WITH ZERO SKILLS IN DRONES, IT JUST SEEMS KIND OF BIASED.... I MEAN THERES LIKE 5 SHIPS MAX THAT ARE GOING TO USE THIS MOD AND NONE OF THEM ARE EVEN CLOSE TO BREAKING THE "OP" BARRIER. WHY NOT LET DRONE USERS HAVE A PROPER GYROSTAB AND JUST BE FAIR ABOUT IT
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#243 - 2012-05-30 09:09:04 UTC
Most drone boats are balanced to be equal having no damage mods for drones available, so why don't you get some cheese for that whine? CCP want to give drone users some more options and they have to do it carefully, however it's not like the modules seem to knock Eve over...

Here is how I would distribute the stats:

Meta 0: 15% / 27 cpu
Meta 1: 16% / 28 cpu
Meta 2: 17% / 29 cpu
Meta 3: 18% / 30 cpu
Meta 4: 19% / 31 cpu
Meta 5: 20% / 32 cpu
Faction: 20% / 27 cpu
Pirate: 21% / 32 cpu

19% or 20% doesn't make a big difference as the original drone dps isn't capable of getting very high, and my OCD tells me 15% and 20% looks good ;-)
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#244 - 2012-05-30 14:01:17 UTC
YES, MY LEGITIMATE QUESTIONING OF WHY THE DRONE DAMAGE AMPS HAVE TO BE SET 3% WEAKER THAN ALL OTHER RACIAL DAMAGE MODS WAS NONE OTHER THAN A WHINE, YOU DID WELL TO SEE PAST MY FACADE.

AND I'M SURE YOUR SUGGESTION OF NUMBERING THE BONUSES IN ACCORDANCE TO YOUR OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDER IS MUCH MORE WELL FOUNDED FOR BALANCED GAMEPLAY.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#245 - 2012-05-30 14:37:38 UTC
I find it very hard to read your text since you compulsively activated your caps lock...

As I just wrote to you most drone ships are already balanced towards not having any drone damage modules available and CCP want to carefully test the grounds instead of creating a monster...
Yes these modules might not boost drones as much as other modules do for other weapon groups, but you fail to realize drones being different in many ways...

You could very well have a valid point on the module not giving same damage multiplier as other similar modules, but you fail to convince anyone purely from the fact you can't present yourself with any authority while acting like a juvenile...

Maybe tell us why the difference in skills doesn't warrant the difference? Tell us how the module wont tip the balance between ships when drones and ships are balanced against a world without? If not then at least stop holding your caps lock as a captive and spare my eyes...

Pinky
Armone Melchezidek
Last Rites.
#246 - 2012-05-30 15:03:31 UTC
I just wanted to point out what a lot of guys probably already noticed. If you use enough of these mods on a sentry boat the sentry damage rigs are no longer useful as they are also penalized as if you added another drone mod. I added a fourth drone damage mod as a smarter man recommended. Then I realize that my sentry rigs were only getting me minimal dps. Now my Proteus drone boat gets 586 dps with four gardes and 4 drone damage mods.

Thanks for freeing up my rigs Alticus C Bear.
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#247 - 2012-05-30 23:52:37 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
I find it very hard to read your text since you compulsively activated your caps lock...

As I just wrote to you most drone ships are already balanced towards not having any drone damage modules available and CCP want to carefully test the grounds instead of creating a monster...
Yes these modules might not boost drones as much as other modules do for other weapon groups, but you fail to realize drones being different in many ways...

You could very well have a valid point on the module not giving same damage multiplier as other similar modules, but you fail to convince anyone purely from the fact you can't present yourself with any authority while acting like a juvenile...

Maybe tell us why the difference in skills doesn't warrant the difference? Tell us how the module wont tip the balance between ships when drones and ships are balanced against a world without? If not then at least stop holding your caps lock as a captive and spare my eyes...

Pinky


YOU REALLY MUST HAVE TROUBLE READING CAPS. BECAUSE IN MY FIRST POST I MENTIONED THAT NONE OF THE DRONE BOATS ARE EVEN CLOSE TO BEING OVERPOWERED, AND I ASKED WHY THE DRONE MOD DOESN'T GET AS MUCH BONUS AS ANY OTHER RACIAL MOD, AND WHAT CCP WAS WORRIED WAS GOING TO HAPPEN? LINK ME A FIT THAT USES DRONE DAMAGE AMPS AND GOES FROM BEING BALANCED, TO BEING A "MONSTER" WHEN YOU CHANGE TO 3% MORE DRONE DAMAGE PLZ.

IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM RIGHT THAT DRONE USERS ARE ALREADY GETTING THE LEAST AMOUNT OF DPS BONUS THANKS TO DRONES HAVING THE WEAKEST DPS OUT OF ANY WEAPON SYSTEM, AND THEN GIVING THEM 3% WEAKER RACIAL DAMAGE MODS THAN EVERYONE ELSE ON TOP OF THAT. ITS NOT LIKE THEY WON'T HAVE DROP A TANK MOD TO FIT THE DAMAGE AMP AS.... HENCE TAKING A HEFTY CHUNK OF MYRM / VEXOR'S TANK FOR A LIKE A 50 DPS BONUS TO HAMMERHEADS. USELESS. THEY BECOME SLIGHTLY MORE VIABLE FOR THE DOMI / ISHTAR, GIVING A 90 DPS BONUS TO OGRE, BUT DOMI IS STILL WAYYY BETTER OFF FITTING MAG STABS THAT ITS NO CONTEST. AND SOMEHOW I DO NOT THINK DDA ISHTAR IS GOING TO BECOME OVERPOWERED BY GIVING ITS OGRES THE 3% MORE DPS THAT EVERY OTHER WEAPON MOD HAS. I DUNNO, I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT THE ISSUE IS WITH GIVING IT THE SAME SIZE BONUS THAT EVERY OTHER RACE GETS, WHICH DOESN'T BREAK ANY OF THEIR WEAPON SYSTEMS. AND IF YOU ARE SO WELL EDUCATED ON THE REASONING BEHIND THIS, MAYBE YOU COULD SPEND MORE TIME ANSWERING MY QUESTION AND LESS TIME QQ'ING AND CALLING ME A JUVENILE FOR HAVING A BROKEN CAPS LOCK BUTTON KTHX


*AWAITS REPLY IGNORING ALL VALID POINTS AND STILL QQ'ING ABOUT CAPS LOCK*
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2012-05-31 03:12:57 UTC
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL wrote:
QQ
Because Winmatar doesn't rely on drones, therefore they can't win.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#249 - 2012-05-31 08:01:05 UTC
I saw you mentioning something about none of the drone boats being overpowered?

To my knowledge the Dominix has been one of the most usefull battleships all around sporting a nasty slot layout and some good attributes:
- Neut dominix -> Nasty
- Gank Dominix (blasters and drones) -> Nasty
- Nano Dominix (nerfed) -> Nasty
- NOS Dominix (nerfed) -> Nasty
- PvE Dominix -> Effecient even w/ low dps

Arbitrator and Vexor are super nice cruisers. Even when Thorax was king of lowsec the Vexor could nuke it... I've seen Vexors and Arbitrators single handed kill Hacs, Recons (including their own T2 variants), battlecruisers and battleships.

Myrmidon got nerfed because it was overpowered, but if you do a mix of drones to utilize your entire bandwith at once and fill in guns you can get a hell of a dps out of it while keeping a solid buffer and even a solid repper setup.

I'm not saying any of the drone boats are overpowered as they are, however they are definately not lacking dps so I understand CCP trying to start out carefully with a possible buff coming out later instead of having to nerf them after a week...
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#250 - 2012-05-31 09:01:18 UTC
Yet again you fail to understand drone ships are balanced to be equal with other ships WITHOUT having drone damage modules, so CCP wants to make sure they don't tip the balance too much...
This comparison cannot be made by making a straight dps comparison as many other factors are present.

Have you seen what the Ishtar has been transformed into? Most other HACs sport about 400-500 damage, however the Ishtar goes from 475 to 730 dps with drones only and 3 damage modules. A perfectly viable setup with a nano/shield setup.
My finger counting tells me a buff on the modules to 22% would make that almost 50 dps better which in itself is a small number, but easily a major difference...

I don't know why CCP stopped at 19% however they came up from about 12% initially so why don't you stop crying about getting robbed when you just received an EXTRA option compared before the module was introduced. I understand your frustration as you seem to have multiple personal issues, but if you want something changed you HAVE to come up with a deeper analysis of why you think drone damage amplifier T2 version should be 22% instead of crying about how modules for other weapon systems are built up.

Pinky
Rrama Ratamnim
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#251 - 2012-05-31 15:31:36 UTC
should be 22% , saying that drone ships are balanced against gun ships is fine they are sorta, but that doesnt help when the gun mods that super buff gun ships, while the drone mods are gimped 3% when they try to buff drone ships it doesnt make any sense

the reasoning for the 22% is the fact that guns get ROF + Damage, drones get only Damage.
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#252 - 2012-06-01 05:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
PINKY, YOU OBVIOUSLY DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW BALANCING WORKS (ALTHO I STRONGLY SUSPECT NOW YOU ARE JUST ARGUING FOR THE SAKE OF IGNORANCE / NOT WANTING TO BE WRONG). JUST BECAUSE DRONE BOATS ARE BALANCED AS ARE, DOESN'T MEAN GIVING THEM AN ADDITIONAL MOD MAKES THEM MORE POWERFUL AND AUTOMATICALLY TURNS THEM INTO OP. I CAN SEE WHY THAT LOGIC MIGHT MAKE SENSE TO YOU ON A SURFACE LEVEL, BUT IN FACT, WHEN A BALANCED MOD IS BROUGHT INTO PLAY, THE SHIP WILL NEVER BECOME ANY MORE POWERFUL THAN BEFORE. THE SHIPS INDIVIDUAL FITS WON'T BE STRONGER, AS THE NEW MOD IS NOT JUST A FREE SHIP BONUS, THEY TAKE UP 1 OF A VITAL NUMBER OF ALLOCATED SLOTS, THAT ARE USED TO BALANCE THE MYRMIDON AS A SHIP. THIS IS WHY SHIP BALANCING IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TABLE TO MOD BALANCING. REGARDLESS OF HOW POWERFUL THE MYRM IS, IF YOU ADD A MOD THAT IS NO MORE OR LESS POWERFUL THAN THE OTHER MODULE OPTIONS IN THE GAME, YOU WILL NOT BREAK A BALANCE. IF IT DOES, THEN THE MODULE ITSELF IS NOT BALANCED. THUS, EVEN WITH A 22% BONUS, THE OPTION OF A DDA FOR A TRIPLE/DUAL REP MYRM WILL NOT SUDDENLY MAKE YOUR SHIP A STEP ABOVE THE OTHER BATTLECRUISERS, TBH IT WILL JUST CRIPPLE YOUR TANK AND WILL MAKE YOUR SHIP WEAKER. BUT IT MIGHT JUST OPEN UP SOME NEW FITTING POSSIBILITIES, GIVING THE MYRM MORE VERSATILITY, BUT NOT MAKING THE MYRMIDON ANY MORE POWERFUL THAN IT WAS. ADDED VERSATILITY WHEN IMPLENTING NEW FEATURES TO GAMES IS WHAT DESIGNERS ARE STRIVING FOR, NOT OVERPOWERING SHIPS. 22% WILL NOT BREAK ANY WEAPON SYSTEM, AS PROVED BY THE 3 OTHER RACES, LEAST OF ALL DRONES WITH THEIR SHODDY DPS AND NUMEROUS COUNTERS. MIGHT IT MAKE THE DRONES THEMSELVES A BIT MORE AGGRESSIVE WITH NO ADDED SURVIVABILITY? YES, AT THE COST OF MUCH GREATER SHIP SUSTAINABILITY. SO WHY NOT GIVE DRONE USERS EXTRA VERSATILITY?


P.S. KEEP CLAIMING THAT IM CRYING BECAUSE IM GETTING ROBBED FOR 3% OR WHATEVER YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY TO COMPENSATE FOR YOUR PAPER THIN ARGUMENT, BECAUSE AS A STRICTLY MINMATER PILOT, THATS PRETTY FUNNY. I'M IN A THREAD ABOUT "BALANCING" THE DDA'S, AND WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR IS BALANCED AND FAIR GAMEPLAY. FOR EVERYONE, NOT JUST THE SHIPS I FLY.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#253 - 2012-06-01 06:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
why don't you stop crying about getting robbed when you just received an EXTRA option compared before the module was introduced
So, by your logic, Drone Navigation Computers are good?

Pinky Denmark wrote:
Yet again you fail to understand drone ships are balanced to be equal with other ships WITHOUT having drone damage modules, so CCP wants to make sure they don't tip the balance too much...
So, by your logic, the gun bonus on the Ishtar is useful and balanced?
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#254 - 2012-06-01 09:15:25 UTC
All I was saying is few people will be convinced for Darkstars opinion if he doesn't present it properly with a few documentable arguments... If people want things changed they should take a mature step towards ccp and save their tears for when their mommy won't give them a cookie :-)
Tbh I don't disagree drone damage modules being put a little too low, however the arguments go deeper than crying about how stats on other modules look as they are not identical in how they work.

Tank:
I think you misunderstood my point. I believe Drone Navigation Computers is an extra option that will give drone users an advantage in certain situations. Having medium drones able to catch up with frigates seems nice. Having your heavy drones reach their target faster seems nice. Usually people prefer other modules due to limited medslots, but the option is still there...

I rarely use the guns on an ishtar, however that doesn't mean the Ishtar is a bad ship. It's excellent at kiting while having drones deal heavy damage. With a shield/kite setup the Ishtar can deal out amazing dps if it's possible to stay out of harms way.
Ishtar is far from the worst HAC even while not using guns - The dominix has a hybrid bonus too but it's still a mean machine even without. I don't know why people stopped using Ishtars for pvp, but I believe it's because other ships have become more dominant and not because it suddenly sucks.

Pinky
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#255 - 2012-06-01 13:55:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Please refrain from personal attacks. In addition, I would recommend against posting in all caps in the future because it makes your posts hard to read for the other forum users.

-- CCP Spitfire
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2012-06-02 05:00:54 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Tank:
I think you misunderstood my point. I believe Drone Navigation Computers is an extra option that will give drone users an advantage in certain situations. Having medium drones able to catch up with frigates seems nice. Having your heavy drones reach their target faster seems nice. Usually people prefer other modules due to limited medslots, but the option is still there...
Sorry for misunderstanding you when I jumped to the conclusion that you think Drone Navigation Computers are good. I now understand that you think Drone Navigation Computers are good.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#257 - 2012-06-05 08:39:51 UTC
Darkstar : If you cannot argue properly for your own opinion nobody will listen to you... I agree I cannot find any reasons to limit the new T2 drone module at 19%, however at the same time I disagree to put it at 22% only because other modules give such a bonus to different weapon platforms.

Also the ships with drone bonus and ability to launch heavy drones need to have their damage bonus adjusted to be in line with gunnery bonuses i.e. 10% pr level -> 5% pr level.
Otherwise the Ishtar and possible the Dominix will be way too imbalanced compared to other ships

Tank : If you would ask a neutral unbiased question about that module it would be a better answer. There is a difference between good and balanced. The drone navigation computer isn't a bad module...

Pinky
DARKSTAR POWNYOUALL
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#258 - 2012-06-05 12:58:07 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Darkstar : If you cannot argue properly for your own opinion nobody will listen to you... I agree I cannot find any reasons to limit the new T2 drone module at 19%, however at the same time I disagree to put it at 22% only because other modules give such a bonus to different weapon platforms.

Also the ships with drone bonus and ability to launch heavy drones need to have their damage bonus adjusted to be in line with gunnery bonuses i.e. 10% pr level -> 5% pr level.
Otherwise the Ishtar and possible the Dominix will be way too imbalanced compared to other ships

Tank : If you would ask a neutral unbiased question about that module it would be a better answer. There is a difference between good and balanced. The drone navigation computer isn't a bad module...

Pinky


YES BECAUSE YOU CAN REALLY MAKE AN OP DOMINIX BY WASTING ALL ITS LOW SLOTS ON MAG STABS AND DDA'S

BECAUSE IF YOU ARE ONLY USING DDA'S YOU GET LESS DPS THAN USING MAG STABS, SO YOU WOULD HAVE TO USE BOTH TO EVEN GET A BETTER SHIP, BY SACRIFICING ALL ITS LOWS AND GIVING YOU LIKE THE SHIELD EHP OF A HURRICANE. THAT EHP IS ASSUMING NO WEB AS WELL BY THE WAY, FOR A CLOSE RANGE BOAT. I'M SURE THAT WILL BE REALLY IMBALANCED TO OTHER SHIPS IT'S OWN SIZE. HOWEVER WILL THEY DEAL WITH SUCH A MONSTER. I KEEP SAYING BRO, BUILD ME ONE IMBALANCED FIT OR AT LEAST SHOW ME AN ATTEMPT, BECAZ YOUR ARGUMENT IS FAILING HARD

YOU REALLY AREN'T CLEAR AT ALL ON WHAT THE POINT OF BALANCING A MOD IS. YOU UNDERSTAND THESE AREN'T JUST FREE SHIP BONUSES RIGHT?
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2012-06-05 20:47:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Tank : If you would ask a neutral unbiased question about that module it would be a better answer. There is a difference between good and balanced. The drone navigation computer isn't a bad module...
If you were to use coherent reasoning it would be a better answer. Your second sentence is also a logic fail; "balanced" and "not good" are contradictory. If you're unable to argue correctly then at least go for all-out troll logic.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#260 - 2012-06-06 10:33:46 UTC
Hey Darkstar - when you say the drone module shold have the same bonus towards drones as other damage modules have towards their weapon system, shouldn't we reduce the ship bonus from 10% to 5% like the ship bonus for other weapon systems?

Tank - Maybe it's just hard to make up a coherent answer when the question you made up was biased. You never get a real answer if you try to manipulate people into a specific answer...

Pinky