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Why the hate for Hi-Sec players?
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Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#201 - 2012-05-31 20:02:07 UTC
terrly bronks wrote:
pvp'ers need to stay in 0.0


And now you're telling people where they can pvp, and you've obviously never heard of low sec at all have you?

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#202 - 2012-05-31 20:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Information Agent
There is so much 'I am elite because I pvp in my pixel spaceship' in here its actually giving me gas.

Everything in this game is pvp, even mining, even mission running, everyone is competing with someone on some level. Yet, just lately, the nullsec residents seem mad about something, so mad in fact, they are paying for people to gank in highsec outside of the normal operating window of hulkageddon.

Between watching the whines from highsec players, and seeing the nullsec pilots blabber on about ganking being the only way to remove miners from the game while trying desperately to not drop their juicebox's into their fathers laps, I have started to get annoyed at this to and fro.

Highsec guys - Stop mining in hulks or anything expensive, don't whine if you die, it happens. The extended hulkageddon wont last forever, and if it does then just do something else. At the very least, start stockpiling stuff, stop putting stuff into markets, starve the system. Just by all thats been made holey, please stop whining.

Nullsec guys- You are not fooling anybody, there is no 'elite pvp' in null only blobs, so why you think bringing your bull to highsec for the long term is a good idea for the game is frankly idiotic, its old, you're old, your alliances need to reset the neighbours up there in 'lawless blue null' rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears, and yeah you guys dont look very tough with a dong draped over one ear. Its not the bears fault you guys are frustrated and unfullfilled, your leaders can snap their fingers and make you do anything they want for their amusment, you guys are weak, easily manipulated and without direction.

Both sides are idiots imho, carebears cry when their ship is killed, pvp'rs cry when miners complain about it.
Khari Amoensis
filcaii sus paharu
#203 - 2012-05-31 20:08:12 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Specifically, its a PVP sandbox.

Everything you do can be seen as a form of pvp, and that was a design principle behind the game(as stated in old interviews and such). The ONLY exception I can see is missions, and I saw it pointed out that missions make war on everyone else in the form of devaluing our money by creating more.

I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game.


The point I was trying to make is that EVE is not a PVP game. Yes, it is PVP-centric, but it is not a PVP game even though the PVP aspect is prevalent. That was all.

I absolutely have no problem with the amount of PVP currently present in the game. Hisec is actually quite safe as long as you're not being silly and especially as long as you don't **** off the wrong crowd.

At some point in the past I got my ship blown up because I ended up by curiosity in .4 from really a backwater system as in the .4 system I stepped into should have theoretically been empty. After I did my best to defend myself, the guy told me what I was doing wrong and even offered to contract me a nice little cruiser as a replacement for the exact type I lost.

Woe me! The contract was in a .4 system again, but the nooblet in me didn't figure that out until I found myself podded.

Still, it didn't bother me at all. That was the only time I got killed and it was mostly because I was to new/stupid to figure out what I was supposed to do.

So, bottom line is that I don't get fussed at all about how much PVP is in this game, but it somewhat annoys me that people label EVE as a PVP game. I mean space is big, really big. And a half-decent pilot can sill make a good living if he ain't having a turnip for a brain and not making himself an easy target.

Also, mining needs to be re-vamped to make it more of a cooperative effort and definitely more engaging. We already have at least half the system in place with quite a load of lvl4 missions having huge roid field. That needs to be a tad more dynamic than clearing a mission and having people afk while they empty the roids.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#204 - 2012-05-31 20:10:09 UTC
Information Agent wrote:
There is so much 'I am elite because I pvp in my pixel spaceship' in here its actually giving me gas.

Everything in this game is pvp, even mining, even mission running, everyone is competing with someone on some level. Yet, just lately, the nullsec residents seem mad about something, so mad in fact, they are paying for people to gank in highsec outside of the normal operating window of hulkageddon.

Between watching the whines from highsec players, and seeing the nullsec pilots blabber on about ganking being the only way to remove miners from the game while trying desperately to not drop their juicebox's into their fathers laps, I have started to get annoyed at this to and fro.

Highsec guys - Stop mining in hulks or anything expensive, don't whine if you die, it happens. The extended hulkageddon wont last forever, and if it does then just do something else. At the very least, start stockpiling stuff, stop putting stuff into markets, starve the system. Just by all thats been made holey, please stop whining.

Nullsec guys- You are not fooling anybody, there is no 'elite pvp' in null only blobs, so why you think bringing your bull to highsec for the long term is a good idea for the game is frankly idiotic, its old, you're old, your alliances need to reset the neighbours up there is 'lawless blue null' rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears, and yeah you guys dont look very tough with a dong draped over one ear. Its not the bears fault you guys are frustrated and unfullfilled, your leaders can snap their fingers and make you do anything they want for their amusment, you guys are weak, easily manipulated and without direction.

Both sides are idiots imho, carebears cry when their ship is killed, pvp'rs cry when miners complain about it.

Wow, u mad bro.

Also, I was involved in actually taking sov less than a month ago. Whats happening now is blowing off steam for alot of the troops. You know, some R&R between business?

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Khari Amoensis
filcaii sus paharu
#205 - 2012-05-31 20:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Khari Amoensis
Virgil Travis wrote:
terrly bronks wrote:
pvp'ers need to stay in 0.0


And now you're telling people where they can pvp, and you've obviously never heard of low sec at all have you?


Banning pvp-ers from hisec would be a huge mistake. I am a great believer in all things done with moderation.
Little Brat
Provincia Septim Reborn
#206 - 2012-05-31 20:13:21 UTC
x

Our corporate symbol is a blue Egyptian Ankh representing pure eternal life, surrounded by 8 gold stars representing The Eightfold Path on a red background representing sacrifice and committment to the everliving, beloved of Ptah...
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#207 - 2012-05-31 20:15:34 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Wow, u mad bro.

Also, I was involved in actually taking sov less than a month ago. Whats happening now is blowing off steam for alot of the troops. You know, some R&R between business?


Actually, yeah I'm mad as hell at pretty much everyone on all sides in this hulkageddon crap. :)

I know you said 'taking sov' as if to mean you were actively engaging a force of skilled pvp'rs with similar numbers, but what you should have said was "We were going into empty systems and structure grinding while unopposed."

The troops shouldn't really have too much steam collected yet, its not like they've actually had to htfu for anything lately is it. :)
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#208 - 2012-05-31 20:16:09 UTC
Khari Amoensis wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Specifically, its a PVP sandbox.

Everything you do can be seen as a form of pvp, and that was a design principle behind the game(as stated in old interviews and such). The ONLY exception I can see is missions, and I saw it pointed out that missions make war on everyone else in the form of devaluing our money by creating more.

I am not telling you that you have to change your habits, but you have to accept that everything you do in EVE is a form of PVP if you want to not become hopelessly embittered by this game.


The point I was trying to make is that EVE is not a PVP game. Yes, it is PVP-centric, but it is not a PVP game even though the PVP aspect is prevalent. That was all.

I absolutely have no problem with the amount of PVP currently present in the game. Hisec is actually quite safe as long as you're not being silly and especially as long as you don't **** off the wrong crowd.

At some point in the past I got my ship blown up because I ended up by curiosity in .4 from really a backwater system as in the .4 system I stepped into should have theoretically been empty. After I did my best to defend myself, the guy told me what I was doing wrong and even offered to contract me a nice little cruiser as a replacement for the exact type I lost.

Woe me! The contract was in a .4 system again, but the nooblet in me didn't figure that out until I found myself podded.

Still, it didn't bother me at all. That was the only time I got killed and it was mostly because I was to new/stupid to figure out what I was supposed to do.

So, bottom line is that I don't get fussed at all about how much PVP is in this game, but it somewhat annoys me that people label EVE as a PVP game. I mean space is big, really big. And a half-decent pilot can sill make a good living if he ain't having a turnip for a brain and not making himself an easy target.

Also, mining needs to be re-vamped to make it more of a cooperative effort and definitely more engaging. We already have at least half the system in place with quite a load of lvl4 missions having huge roid field. That needs to be a tad more dynamic than clearing a mission and having people afk while they empty the roids.

Name one thing in EVE that is not PVP. If you can name one other than ship spinning, you are wrong.

Also, I am not actually trying to say you specifically, more you generically to apply to anyone who needs to get that message. Its a detail that tends to get lost on forums, sorry if it should not have been directed at you.

Oh, and avoiding death is the wrong way to handle it. If you constantly try to avoid death, when it inevitably happens again(it will, thats is a fact of EVE) you will be alot more upset. Don't try to avoid dying, try to make sure that each death not only teaches you something, but also advances you closer to your goals. Don't avoid death, make your death worth something, or at least entertaining.

Plus, dying makes more sparklies in space, which is always good Cool

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#209 - 2012-05-31 20:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Information Agent wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Wow, u mad bro.

Also, I was involved in actually taking sov less than a month ago. Whats happening now is blowing off steam for alot of the troops. You know, some R&R between business?


Actually, yeah I'm mad as hell at pretty much everyone on all sides in this hulkageddon crap. :)

I know you said 'taking sov' as if to mean you were actively engaging a force of skilled pvp'rs with similar numbers, but what you should have said was "We were going into empty systems and structure grinding while unopposed."

The troops shouldn't really have too much steam collected yet, its not like they've actually had to htfu for anything lately is it. :)

I felt mildly opposed.

There wasn't alot of fight put up, but they tried.

And that was the end of 3 solid months of deployment, taking space from various people.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#210 - 2012-05-31 20:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Lots of anger surfacing there mate.

Hit a nerve, did he??

In my alliance (we live in wormholes and *love* it) we call it "FAP not NAP!" Friendly Aggression Pact vrs Non-Aggression Pact.


The way it works is this:


Today, we find each other and shoot each other in the face...
Tomorrow, you call us (or we call you) and we band together to shoot someone else in the face...
The Day After Tomorrow, we find each other and shoot each other in the face...

We also do PI, some light manufacturing, light invention, gas sucking and running sleeper sites... (PVE our asses off when the mood strikes us - much like most other WH/LOW/NULL sec corps as well).


TBQH, I see a lot of people complaining about hi-sec ganking/wars/what have you (and wanting to change "the game"), and another group complaining about people not leaving hi-sec (and wanting to change "the game"). The worst posters on both sides (and they are a minority) refuse to believe that the other "gets" anything.

The "carebear" crowd refuse to believe that "pvp'ers" (or null-sec'ers, or "pvp'ers) ever do invention, manufacturing or research... In fact, some of the best pvp'ers I know, do have manufacturing/research pos' scattered between hi-sec and low-sec... They also believe (from what I've read on the forums) that PVPers in Hi-sec ganking/pirating/wardec'ing haven't ever lived in low/null/wh's...

The "hard core pvp'ers" refuse to believe that anyone in the "carebear crowd" will get to a point where they want to leave hi-sec behind... And *I* am proof that *that* belief is wrong. Used to be a careiest of carebears. Also - Dr E showed in his last "state of the economy" message at fanfest, that people are moving around. But we are in the realm of the law of large numbers now "all changes will be gradual and small..."


Both groups are wrong about the other, but leave themselves no room to gain a greater understanding of each other. So, depending on who you answer (on the forums) yeah, you might get some anger back, because hard as it may be to believe, both groups care about the game. The greater the appreciation for their particular style of play, the greater the anger (from both!).

Malphilos wrote:
Snot Shot wrote:

At this point a majority of 0.0 Alliances have blued, NIP'ed, or NAP'ed each other so there is very little to do out there. To keep the Blue lists, NIP's, and NAP's going you need to supply the sheep something large enough to keep them occupied or they will start to fight with each other.


And they will start fighting one another, but in a controlled way and the worry about having something to do is very real. Someone posted a state of the alliance chat here a while ago that addressed that very issue as the primary concern. Most previous powerblocks have essentially died of boredom. The conundrum is that the CFC is untenable except as a whole, but as a whole it's dull as hell. "We won EVE" turns out not to be such an interesting outcome.

Truer words were never spoken by an NPC posting alt...Big smile

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#211 - 2012-05-31 20:41:38 UTC
What you guys apparently call a FAP, we call a NIP(No Infrastructure Agreement) where we shoot each other, but don't make war on each others structures, and have the diplomatic ties to ask for favors.

Then there is TEST, and the fact that they will randomly reset blues because they need more targets, but thats just alot of fun.

Never not reset TEST.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Khari Amoensis
filcaii sus paharu
#212 - 2012-05-31 20:42:05 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Oh, and avoiding death is the wrong way to handle it. If you constantly try to avoid death, when it inevitably happens again(it will, thats is a fact of EVE) you will be alot more upset. Don't try to avoid dying, try to make sure that each death not only teaches you something, but also advances you closer to your goals. Don't avoid death, make your death worth something, or at least entertaining.

Plus, dying makes more sparklies in space, which is always good Cool



I'm not avoiding death... I just always make sure that I don't make myself a target or an easy target at that.

I don't have anything to lose by dying... I ain't got a 2bil ship fit and I never have transported billions in my indy ships. What I do is not make it worth while to get the ship recycled ... that's just by reflex:)

And yeh, I am definitely aware my ship can be blown up if a group of people would decide to. That's why I'm still playing EVE 5 years later.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#213 - 2012-05-31 20:53:48 UTC
Drei Ontalas wrote:
Couldn't the hours of grinding that is associated with a hi-sec play style be the cost?

I admit that *is* a cost (of a kind) however, all the LP/Isk/Minerals go somewhere... and the second they do, they impact *everyone*, *everywhere*.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#214 - 2012-05-31 21:03:27 UTC
Hi-sec players are not hated because that would be like hating an NPC agent.
Adelphie
The Lone Wolves.
#215 - 2012-05-31 21:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Adelphie
I'm quite a seasoned advocator of nullsec - does this mean I hate people who play in hi-sec? Absolutely not. I am, however, getting increasingly frustrated at the lack of "carrot" to try and get people to give null a go - getting people to move to null is the first step of reinvigorating the small gang pvp culture we've seen in this game in the past.

When I started out in the game people like me followed a similar path (aka Adelphie's 7 step plan to enlightenment):

1) Move to nullsec to make more money.
2) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
3) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
4) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
5) Get fed up of being killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
6) Try and fail to kill griefer, pirate or roaming gang
7) Get the shakes and realise that pvp is actually really good fun

What I'm trying to say is that people don't think "hmmmm i've been doing lvl4's for 6 months. I'm going to move to null and shoot someone in the face". People move to null because there was the carrot of more isk, at the risk of more chance of death. The fact people get forced into pvp makes some (by all means not all) people try a game style out that they wouldn't normally get to do.

At the moment the carrot to move to null and try new things has diminished, so people never even get to point 1 on the above. This directly impacts the enjoyment of the game for people like me, as there are less faces to shoot and tears to harvest. CCP need to find more ways of enticing people to nullsec, starting with (imo) mining changes.

To quote the poet Ice-T - Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#216 - 2012-05-31 21:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Information Agent wrote:
There is so much 'I am elite because I pvp in my pixel spaceship' in here its actually giving me gas.

Everything in this game is pvp, even mining, even mission running, everyone is competing with someone on some level. Yet, just lately, the nullsec residents seem mad about something, so mad in fact, they are paying for people to gank in highsec outside of the normal operating window of hulkageddon.

Between watching the whines from highsec players, and seeing the nullsec pilots blabber on about ganking being the only way to remove miners from the game while trying desperately to not drop their juicebox's into their fathers laps, I have started to get annoyed at this to and fro.

Highsec guys - Stop mining in hulks or anything expensive, don't whine if you die, it happens. The extended hulkageddon wont last forever, and if it does then just do something else. At the very least, start stockpiling stuff, stop putting stuff into markets, starve the system. Just by all thats been made holey, please stop whining.

Nullsec guys- You are not fooling anybody, there is no 'elite pvp' in null only blobs, so why you think bringing your bull to highsec for the long term is a good idea for the game is frankly idiotic, its old, you're old, your alliances need to reset the neighbours up there in 'lawless blue null' rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears, and yeah you guys dont look very tough with a dong draped over one ear. Its not the bears fault you guys are frustrated and unfullfilled, your leaders can snap their fingers and make you do anything they want for their amusment, you guys are weak, easily manipulated and without direction.

Both sides are idiots imho, carebears cry when their ship is killed, pvp'rs cry when miners complain about it.



10/10

rather than collectively hiding in each others underpants while screaming bloody murder through the zipper at carebears


This is gold.



The list in the previous post was not complete. Here is the complete list:

1) Move to nullsec to make more money.
2) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
3) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
4) Get killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
5) Get fed up of being killed by griefer, pirate or roaming gang
6) Try and fail to kill griefer, pirate or roaming gang
7) Get the shakes and realise that pvp is actually really good fun
8) Run out of ISK and end up back in high sec to grind for more ISK.
9)Lose track of how much ISK is enough, and get confused by changing prices.
10) Also have second thoughts about skills - were they right the last time?
11) Frustration on wanting to go back but not wanting to have to come back to highsec means more ISK is needed.
12) Become a raging ISK-snatcher engaging in the ISK fountain of the month so much that you rage if something gets nerfed or a change is proposed.
13) Contemplate getting a second account or buying a char to PVP while grinding ISK with the main in high sec.
14) Give up all work and relationships in RL to play the game 16 hours a day running two chars.

Ah forget it I can do this all day. P

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Spineker
#217 - 2012-05-31 21:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Inappropriate post removed. Spitfire
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-05-31 21:57:56 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Stop with the immunity from interference thing, the people arguing against the ideas are making that up.

The problem is not that the tank reduces yield, the problem is that it is still easily gankable even with the max tank.

mining mission sites is kind of worthless most the time, grav sites are few and far between.

Why use a ship not designed for your purpose. Mining ships were created ot do just that.

People do play at the keyboard while mining. Problem is knowing the 5 npc alts in your system that were created a week earlier as being suicide gankers. How you get that kind of intel in that amount of time boggles me.

Hi-sec is for learning eve, but the 0.0 entities force people who want to play the game as they choose to stay in hi sec. So what can they do but take advantage of hi sec to the fullest potential they can. Or maybe the players are willing to change eve so people actually "graduate" from hi sec?


Ganking has been nerfed at least three times I can think of off the top of my head (two Concord response time tweeks and the removal of insurance payouts if concord is on the KM, I believe). So people are doing *exactly* as expected when the response times of concord were beefed up in the past couple of years. Asking for more "tweeks" to make ganking "harder". It's been made harder. (Full disclosure: Destroyers were beefed up and T3 BC's were introduced - but those aren't *specific* to ganking - concord response time and insurance nerfs were).

Tanking reducing yield *has* been talked about (in some of the recent threads) as reasons "against" ganking.

Mining Mission sites / Grav sites can yield good ore, and at least for missions, there is a limitless supply...

Why use a ship not designed for your purpose? O.o "To keep from being blown up"? My Rokh is a *great* mining ship, with a 114K EHP buffer tank... And resists approaching 80% across the board. What I "lose" in ship selection, I more than make up for in security...

Go check the hulkageddon killboard... LOTS of mains there... Not everyone ganks with an alt... Take me for example... (Full Disclosure: ADHC doesn't condone ganking in Hi-sec, we prefer our pilots gank in our connecting wormholes, low-sec or null).
;..;

Hi-sec isn't *just* for learning eve, LOTS of things to do there (exploration/Trade) that can be done very lucratively . . .


But, how would you "graduate" someone from Hi-Sec?

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2012-05-31 21:59:42 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Full Disclosure: ADHC doesn't condone ganking in Hi-sec, we prefer our pilots gank in our connecting wormholes, low-sec or null


~honoure~

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#220 - 2012-05-31 23:25:56 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Full Disclosure: ADHC doesn't condone ganking in Hi-sec, we prefer our pilots gank in our connecting wormholes, low-sec or null


~honoure~

Nope - just no reason to really.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.