These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP needs to take a hard look at Goonswarm and Hulkageddon to save EVE.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#181 - 2012-05-31 01:35:51 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:

You are absolutely right but you left out suicide ganking, a practice condoned and not discouraged against by the very people you pay your sub fees to and who work tirelessly to bring you expansions that everyone hates and bitches about on the forum here. I feel for CCP they really do have a thankless job of satisfying whiners and you want to add more whining to that.


I think this would be the heart of the problem, pretty sure we have established this over 9 pages now.

If there's no way to survive suicide ganking in highsec, it needs to be fixed. Either that, or the person doing the ganking should be poded and forced into a clone. Also there clone shouldn't be allowed in highsec because of the fast that they had attacked someone there to begin with.

Again, i don't understand why ccp left miners as defenseless as they are to begin with. why would anyone, ever, in any situation in life, go out into a "world" where pirates could\will attack you at any time, without armorments or defenses. This makes no sense in real life. Even assuming that say a "hulk" had to devote most of it's power sources to the miners while they where operational, it could always, I donno, turn the stupid things off to power guns and/or shields.

I honesty think that before CCP looks at the situation of making highsec "safe" they should just look at the mining ships overall and think "would anyone in their right mind really go out into this world in this"
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#182 - 2012-05-31 01:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Spikeflach wrote:
I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.


I want to address two of the points that you have made in this post.

1. A miner/builder/industrialist is not funding PVP through taxes. They are funding it through production of the instruments of war. To alter your statement in light of this, " By your logic, if I work Lockheed Martin or Boeing, I am building the weapons that the US military uses to blow **** up."

2. Yes being in hisec means the police comes if you get shot at. At the heart of every argument against hi-sec PVP is the fundamental belief that PVP should be optional. IT IS NOT. If you could simply recognize and acknowledge that PVP exists in every sector of space at any time every one of your arguments fails. It would also make the vast majority of Eve players more successful.

Since you like to use real world analogies allow me to take a stab at this. You are walking down the street in your home town and a shadowy figure jumps out at you from the behind a bush, puts a gun to your head, and pulls the trigger. When you get to wherever you believe you will go after you die, do you tell the guy at the front door, "NERF GUYS HIDING IN BUSHES I SHOULD NOT HAVE DIED AS I WAS IN A NICE PART OF TOWN!"

Relieve yourself of your fundamental belief that PVP in this game is optional. It isn't and it is holding you back.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#183 - 2012-05-31 01:42:21 UTC
Ganking involves more than hulks and always has. Single gankers go after retrievers, mining cruisers, anything that looks easy. It's not a matter of just getting out of hulks.

The ganking mechanic in Eve worked fine until (1) the Goons and their noise machine got involved and (2) the full DPS of destroyers got unleashed.

The Goons ramped up the noise around ganking to the point that mining in some systems just became undoable. My corp responded to that just fine in general but with every new player we went through a long education process about how and why to avoid ganking.

We called players noobs for most of their first six months of play, and sometimes beyond that. Six months is plenty of time to get into a hulk. Six months is not plenty of time to learn this game to any real degree, especially for a casual player.

We lost lots of newbies who didn't like getting ganked. Simple fact. It takes a good bit of exposure to Eve to understand why players shoot mining ships in high sec.

Nobody is asking for PVP to be eliminated. That's just drama on the part of people who don't the forum pressure that anti-Hulkageddon and anti-Goon players are putting on the forums. Sure, we're putting on the pressure, even those of us who are leaving the game. Why? Because pushing your buttons is just as much fun for us as pushing our buttons is fun for you.

Getting rid of Hulkageddon would be plenty of relief. Ganking can continue just fine without the biggest alliance in the game putting all their noise and bombast behind it. I personally still think it's stupid, but I'm leaving anyway.

Miners are not 100% care bear, 100% newbie, or 100% anything.

Lots of methods of avoiding ganking involve playing the game with total attention, the same way you do PVP. The whole beauty of mining was that it did not require full attention and a person could mine and do other things too. If that's a crime, I don't see why.

Any game that can only be played with 100% attention to the screen and that has no level of casual involvement is headed in a bad direction.

People are not going to move to null sec in serious numbers as long as null sec requires such intense effort to hold against larger alliances. Most corps and alliances rely on a handful of players who constantly work at logistics to keep null sec viable for the other players. I was that guy for my alliance. I got totally tired of the time commitment, so we moved back to high sec.

Bottom line, the noise around this issue is at this pitch primarily due to Goons, their noise, and their constant need for look-at-me behavior. They don't dominate the game at all, but they make it a point to dominate the forums, the PR, and the discussion. There is no need whatsoever for a publicly declared war on miners but we have one. There is no need for an everlasting Hulkageddon but we have one.

There is no need to get rid of PVP, to eliminate ganking, or anything as drastic as that. There is a need to stop the political war against mining and casual play.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#184 - 2012-05-31 01:42:51 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:

You are absolutely right but you left out suicide ganking, a practice condoned and not discouraged against by the very people you pay your sub fees to and who work tirelessly to bring you expansions that everyone hates and bitches about on the forum here. I feel for CCP they really do have a thankless job of satisfying whiners and you want to add more whining to that.


I think this would be the heart of the problem, pretty sure we have established this over 9 pages now.

If there's no way to survive suicide ganking in highsec, it needs to be fixed. Either that, or the person doing the ganking should be poded and forced into a clone. Also there clone shouldn't be allowed in highsec because of the fast that they had attacked someone there to begin with.

Again, i don't understand why ccp left miners as defenseless as they are to begin with. why would anyone, ever, in any situation in life, go out into a "world" where pirates could\will attack you at any time, without armorments or defenses. This makes no sense in real life. Even assuming that say a "hulk" had to devote most of it's power sources to the miners while they where operational, it could always, I donno, turn the stupid things off to power guns and/or shields.

I honesty think that before CCP looks at the situation of making highsec "safe" they should just look at the mining ships overall and think "would anyone in their right mind really go out into this world in this"


Apply for a job at CCP or run for CSM. Suicide gankers are working within the defined gaming elements. You are wanting to change the gaming elements. I like the elements just the way they are and while I respect your right to have an opinion, I do not and will not agree with it.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#185 - 2012-05-31 01:45:22 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.


I want to address two of the points that you have made in this post.

1. A miner/builder/industrialist is not funding PVP through taxes. They are funding it through production of the instruments of war. To alter your statement in light of this, " By your logic, if I work Lockheed Martin or Boeing, I am building the weapons that the US military uses to blow **** up."

2. Yes being in hisec means the police comes if you get shot at. At the heart of every argument against hi-sec PVP is the fundamental belief that PVP should be optional. IT IS NOT. If you could simply recognize and acknowledge that PVP exists in every sector of space at any time every one of your arguments fails. It would also make the vast majority of Eve players more successful.

Since you like to use real world analogies allow me to take a stab at this. You are walking down the street in your home town and a shadowy figure jumps out at you from the behind a bush, puts a gun to your head, and pulls the trigger. When you get to wherever you believe you will go after you die, do you tell the guy at the front door, "NERF GUYS HIDING IN BUSHES I SHOULD NOT HAVE DIED AS I WAS IN A NICE PART OF TOWN!"

Relieve yourself of your fundamental belief that PVP in this game is optional. It isn't and it is holding you back.


In my part of town, as soon as that gunshot went off the guy would have so many bullet holes in him his children would die.
and, I'm pretty sure if he could come back in a clone, they'd enjoy shooting him again, extra target practice.
EVE Roy Mustang
Doomheim
#186 - 2012-05-31 01:47:14 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Juess wrote:
[quote=Spikeflach]

If PVE is not PVP then how come so many miners got ganked in Hulkageddon V?


Well, it wasn't because the asteroids were actually players in cloaked ships shooting back at the hulk and im pretty sure the hulk wasn't melting away the player operated asteroids...

Now if only there were a way to gank the ganker before the ganker ganks you...cept if you could reverse gank, your hulk would meet concord doom.


you can, fly a destroyer and kill any other destroyer youv see in the belt
Juess
The Order of Cerberus
#187 - 2012-05-31 01:48:07 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Juess wrote:
[quote=Spikeflach]

If PVE is not PVP then how come so many miners got ganked in Hulkageddon V?


Well, it wasn't because the asteroids were actually players in cloaked ships shooting back at the hulk and im pretty sure the hulk wasn't melting away the player operated asteroids...

Now if only there were a way to gank the ganker before the ganker ganks you...cept if you could reverse gank, your hulk would meet concord doom.

There is. You just won't do it.

Performance anxiety? In-game, of course.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#188 - 2012-05-31 01:52:32 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.


I want to address two of the points that you have made in this post.

1. A miner/builder/industrialist is not funding PVP through taxes. They are funding it through production of the instruments of war. To alter your statement in light of this, " By your logic, if I work Lockheed Martin or Boeing, I am building the weapons that the US military uses to blow **** up."

2. Yes being in hisec means the police comes if you get shot at. At the heart of every argument against hi-sec PVP is the fundamental belief that PVP should be optional. IT IS NOT. If you could simply recognize and acknowledge that PVP exists in every sector of space at any time every one of your arguments fails. It would also make the vast majority of Eve players more successful.

Since you like to use real world analogies allow me to take a stab at this. You are walking down the street in your home town and a shadowy figure jumps out at you from the behind a bush, puts a gun to your head, and pulls the trigger. When you get to wherever you believe you will go after you die, do you tell the guy at the front door, "NERF GUYS HIDING IN BUSHES I SHOULD NOT HAVE DIED AS I WAS IN A NICE PART OF TOWN!"

Relieve yourself of your fundamental belief that PVP in this game is optional. It isn't and it is holding you back.


In my part of town, as soon as that gunshot went off the guy would have so many bullet holes in him his children would die.
and, I'm pretty sure if he could come back in a clone, they'd enjoy shooting him again, extra target practice.


And yet you would still be dead and justice done. It is the same relationship you have with the ganker and Concord. Yes Ganker (creepy guy in bushes) gets ganked by CONCORD (the police/trigger happy neighborhood watch). And if he did come back during the 15 minute GCC they would, in fact, shoot him again.

But again, you are NEVER 100% safe. Not in your part of town and not in your part of space.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#189 - 2012-05-31 01:56:32 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And yet you would still be dead and justice done. It is the same relationship you have with the ganker and Concord. Yes Ganker (creepy guy in bushes) gets ganked by CONCORD (the police/trigger happy neighborhood watch). And if he did come back during the 15 minute GCC they would, in fact, shoot him again.

But again, you are NEVER 100% safe. Not in your part of town and not in your part of space.



Your right, I'm not, but there's a problem with your thinking.

Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.

there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.
Juess
The Order of Cerberus
#190 - 2012-05-31 01:58:16 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
And yet you would still be dead and justice done. It is the same relationship you have with the ganker and Concord. Yes Ganker (creepy guy in bushes) gets ganked by CONCORD (the police/trigger happy neighborhood watch). And if he did come back during the 15 minute GCC they would, in fact, shoot him again.

But again, you are NEVER 100% safe. Not in your part of town and not in your part of space.



Your right, I'm not, but there's a problem with your thinking.

Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.

there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.

roflpermadeathcopters?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#191 - 2012-05-31 02:05:02 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Your right, I'm not


Ladies and gentlemen, he understands the concept now.


Durgain wrote:
Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.


What you are suggesting is that the suicide ganker and the miner should both be dead and their game be over. No pods, no clones, no mas tequila. I think you may have a difficult time getting this mechanic changed.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Johnny Rook
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#192 - 2012-05-31 02:08:51 UTC
permadeath Eve? He's gone from the worst kind of carebear to so ******* H4rdc0r3.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#193 - 2012-05-31 02:12:17 UTC
Johnny Rook wrote:
permadeath Eve? He's gone from the worst kind of carebear to so ******* H4rdc0r3.


+1 and still LMAO.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2012-05-31 02:16:07 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Durgain wrote:
Your right, I'm not


Ladies and gentlemen, he understands the concept now.


Durgain wrote:
Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.


What you are suggesting is that the suicide ganker and the miner should both be dead and their game be over. No pods, no clones, no mas tequila. I think you may have a difficult time getting this mechanic changed.


Nice editing of lines.

Unfortunetly, I'm pretty sure i'm not talking about permadeath, but for every action there should be reprocussions. Since eve doesn't allow a character to permanetly die, for obvious reasons, they need a different solution.

Some simple ones would be to make sure that players don't get insurance on concord killed ships (assuming they do)
A period of days where the attacking pilot can't enter highspace without getting killed by concord (not minutes)
and concord podding players attacking others in highsec while there clone is automatically set somewhere in low/null sec.

there'd most likely be a sharp decrease in suicide ganking after that.
Juess
The Order of Cerberus
#195 - 2012-05-31 02:21:30 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Durgain wrote:
Your right, I'm not


Ladies and gentlemen, he understands the concept now.


Durgain wrote:
Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.


What you are suggesting is that the suicide ganker and the miner should both be dead and their game be over. No pods, no clones, no mas tequila. I think you may have a difficult time getting this mechanic changed.


Nice editing of lines.

Unfortunetly, I'm pretty sure i'm not talking about permadeath, but for every action there should be reprocussions. Since eve doesn't allow a character to permanetly die, for obvious reasons, they need a different solution.

Some simple ones would be to make sure that players don't get insurance on concord killed ships (assuming they do)
A period of days where the attacking pilot can't enter highspace without getting killed by concord (not minutes)
and concord podding players attacking others in highsec while there clone is automatically set somewhere in low/null sec.

there'd most likely be a sharp decrease in suicide ganking after that.

i see you want concord to play eve for you while you suckle at the tritanium nipple
bongsmoke
Visine Red
420 Chronicles of EvE
#196 - 2012-05-31 02:22:09 UTC
As long as its profitable for CCP to allow this to happen (I.E. Plex buying), it will never change. If they start losing money(subs/plex), then that might change. There is nothing else to motivate CCP in this regard, period.
Johnny Rook
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#197 - 2012-05-31 02:23:43 UTC
bongsmoke wrote:
period.


well that explains your posting

(BOOSH)
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#198 - 2012-05-31 02:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Durgain wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Durgain wrote:
Your right, I'm not


Ladies and gentlemen, he understands the concept now.


Durgain wrote:
Said gunman knows that if he where to shoot me he's going to die and he's never comming back, so there's no profit in him killing me, he's just dead, as well as me, a noname stranger who had nothing to do with him.there's no such penalty in eve, and there needs to be.


What you are suggesting is that the suicide ganker and the miner should both be dead and their game be over. No pods, no clones, no mas tequila. I think you may have a difficult time getting this mechanic changed.


Nice editing of lines.

Unfortunetly, I'm pretty sure i'm not talking about permadeath, but for every action there should be reprocussions. Since eve doesn't allow a character to permanetly die, for obvious reasons, they need a different solution.

Some simple ones would be to make sure that players don't get insurance on concord killed ships (assuming they do)
A period of days where the attacking pilot can't enter highspace without getting killed by concord (not minutes)
and concord podding players attacking others in highsec while there clone is automatically set somewhere in low/null sec.

there'd most likely be a sharp decrease in suicide ganking after that.


1. Some simple ones would be to make sure that players don't get insurance on concord killed ships

This nerf has already been implemented thanks to whining similar to yours. And yet as James 315 has stated again and again this is not enough. Miners want more to the detriment of the game as a whole.

2. A period of days where the attacking pilot can't enter highspace without getting killed by concord (not minutes)

In the interest of balance if a miner mines for more than an hour/day they are immediately GCCd for the same number of days. (Balance you know if gankers can't play their game neither can miners)

3. and concord podding players attacking others in highsec while there clone is automatically set somewhere in low/null sec.

Characters owning an Exhumer not able to purchase clones in high sec.

Once again you make these demands based on your fundamental belief that PVP should be optional. It isn't and we have already gone through this ad nauseum.

So instead you want to stack the deck in your favor. Tell me this sir. Why is it that you feel entitled to mine in space with no risk and no consequences? Hell even mission runners have a chance of being blown up. I know I was a high sec mission runner for four years and then discovered the forums and saw all the whining and complaining and bitching and thought, "WTF are these people bitching about?"

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#199 - 2012-05-31 02:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Durgain
bongsmoke wrote:
As long as its profitable for CCP to allow this to happen (I.E. Plex buying), it will never change. If they start losing money(subs/plex), then that might change. There is nothing else to motivate CCP in this regard, period.



I guess, but apparently they've already been losing subs, and with GW2 and wow expansion on the horizon, it will probably get worse, esp if people are unable to do what they enjoy cause of goons.

I donno that I can justify the expense in all honesty, not really much left in game to work on except 3 week long skills.
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#200 - 2012-05-31 02:29:57 UTC
Drax Dremal wrote:
Goonswarm is bot moon mining, bot ice mining and bot ore mining. They have enouph protection to be emune from Hulkageddon so they decided to get rid of the high sec competition. CCP you need to take a hard stance against Goonswarm to save EVE and your jobs. I know this is a sandbox, but if the the sandbox fills up with **** you need to throw it out and get new sand.

Goonswarm what are you going to to do when only pirates are playing and the player base is so low EVE dies a slow death like Star Wars. The only reason you are so big is because of high sec and the carebears. Carebears give you and other pirates something to fight against. When carebears are gone who are you going to fight then? I think your going to be playing with yourself!!


Goonswarm do you think EVE cant die? I played in Star Wars from its start until it died. At its high point it was way more popular than EVE will ever be. We thought it could never die. Another game designer is going see that EVE is weak and create another similar game. When it does carebears and your pirate members are going to leave EVE in droves. When it does CCP and Goonswarm are going to be crying!


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Winston Churchill


QQ. Don't like it? Go kill them.