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CCP needs to take a hard look at Goonswarm and Hulkageddon to save EVE.
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Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#161 - 2012-05-31 00:15:55 UTC
Quote:
You absolutely are - if you've sold a scrap of ore, sold a single module or piece of salvage from a mission, let alone produced it, you've participated in PVP. Who do you think bought that ship or module your resources eventually built?

Think of it like stamping out a spark to make sure it doesn't become a flame. You call it fear, we call it good practice.


Really? Really? You really have to try that hard to insist that Mining is a PvP activity?

Well, keep stamping i guess. Hehe.

Quote:
IF null is safe (it isn't) it's because players banded together to make it that way. We recognized that the lack of highsec/lowsec restrictions would allow us to do such a thing, and we did it. That said, we're never, EVER safe in null. Anyone who wants to come in and shoot at the first thing they see can just go ahead and do it, no questions asked.


After everyone in the system has docked up or safed up as soon as that little non-blue popped in system. Unfortunatly in hi sec you can't know for certain who is a ganker and who isn't, while in 0.0 its simply pointing out some hostile. In fact, people safe up and dock up when they see fleets in their intel channels 3 jumps out.

Quote:
Compare this to what's happening with Hulkageddon victims - they get popped, fully within the game mechanics, and instead of thinking "how can I make that not happen?" they come straight to the forums and whine, cry and tantrum, all while rejecting anything that resembles advice since it's not literally the exact to-the-T thing they were already doing. That's pathetic, no matter where you stand.


It has been proven time and time again that a ship cannot be fit to survive a suicide gank. When it comes straight down to it, if someone is going to suicide gank you, you are going to be popped unless it was a fail suicide.

Quote:
My overall point is that the forums are hardly a representation of anything. Large swaths of the game ignore its existence completely (you need only look at the CSM votes yearly to realize this). Using it as a gauge of anything like overall player satisfaction is pointless.


Quote:
Are you really this stupid? It's not just the profitability of highsec, it's the proftiability of the ENTIRE GAME. No modules or ships needed, NOTHING gets built, meaning anyone who produces resources in any area of the game is SCREWED. Completely.


So PvP stops entirely when suicide ganking stops? Or are you saying all the PvP people will move to PvE?

I am confused as to why there would no longer be PvP?
Frederick Sanger
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2012-05-31 00:16:00 UTC
Drax Dremal wrote:
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results.
Winston Churchill

The results are amazing and better than what we had hoped for. We are doing our very best to save Eve. You're welcome.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#163 - 2012-05-31 00:17:55 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Drax Dremal wrote:
Goonswarm do you think EVE cant die? I played in Star Wars from its start until it died. At its high point it was way more popular than EVE will ever be. We thought it could never die.


You thought wrong. Looks like you're still thinking wrong. EVE isn't a cookie-cutter MMO & has not reached it's high point. Subscriber numbers climb each year, can you name any other MMO that has achieved this 9 years running?


Istaria. Born before EvE, it's another sandbox game getting 2 free patches a year, but with a very very nice and mature playerbase. Unlike EvE you can build your own buildings with better functionality than the NPC ones.

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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#164 - 2012-05-31 00:20:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Drax Dremal wrote:
Goonswarm do you think EVE cant die? I played in Star Wars from its start until it died. At its high point it was way more popular than EVE will ever be. We thought it could never die.


You thought wrong. Looks like you're still thinking wrong. EVE isn't a cookie-cutter MMO & has not reached it's high point. Subscriber numbers climb each year, can you name any other MMO that has achieved this 9 years running?


Istaria. Born before EvE, it's another sandbox game getting 2 free patches a year, but with a very very nice and mature playerbase. Unlike EvE you can build your own buildings with better functionality than the NPC ones.


Holy crap: That game was terrible. It's the first MMO I ever uninstalled the same day I purchased it. Didn't it have another name at some point?
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2012-05-31 00:28:07 UTC
Stop it. Just... stop.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#166 - 2012-05-31 00:37:59 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Really? Really? You really have to try that hard to insist that Mining is a PvP activity?

Well, keep stamping i guess. Hehe.


It's not trying hard. You're involved in PVP. If you don't like that, well truthfully I don't care. You're involved, though. I can't PVP without people producing ships. You produce ships, that allows me to PVP. Hence, you're involved. This isn't exactly an esoteric concept.

Spikeflach wrote:
After everyone in the system has docked up or safed up as soon as that little non-blue popped in system. Unfortunatly in hi sec you can't know for certain who is a ganker and who isn't, while in 0.0 its simply pointing out some hostile. In fact, people safe up and dock up when they see fleets in their intel channels 3 jumps out.


The freedom you have in highsec is that, because of CONCORD, there can only really be certain kinds of attacks on you. People can't just jump you for the hell of it, they need a certain kind of fit (which they will lose) that can deal X amount of damage (your tank) in Y amount of time (CONCORD response). If they fail any of these conditions, you live and they die. That's quite a far cry from being able to be shot anytime, anywhere with the only possible intervention being other players.

If miners are too lazy and stupid to use the knowledge they have (gank ships are pretty uniform) to either withstand ganks (this may mean not using your precious Hulk!!!!) or to become unattractive targets (BS mining, non-exhumer mining since covetors and the like don't get our payouts), then it's THEIR FAULT THEY DIE. This isn't even covering crazier options like moving to lowsec so you can have proper protection with you, or god forbid looking into a null corp and mining in grav sites.

Spikeflach wrote:
It has been proven time and time again that a ship cannot be fit to survive a suicide gank. When it comes straight down to it, if someone is going to suicide gank you, you are going to be popped unless it was a fail suicide.


Sounds like Eve isn't 100% safe. It shouldn't be. There are many ways around it, but they all involve lowering your potential yield in exchange for safety (a decision PVPers have to make all the time with respect to tank vs firepower, mobility, tackle, ECM, etc). If miners refuse to do this, the problem becomes soley theirs. They aren't worth pity or consideration, as that kind of laziness is NEVER the route of anything that is good.

Spikeflach wrote:
So PvP stops entirely when suicide ganking stops? Or are you saying all the PvP people will move to PvE?

I am confused as to why there would no longer be PvP?


I'm saying that if highsec becomes 100% safe, nobody will live in null or low, at all, full stop. No populations in PVP'able areas combined with the complete lack of PVP in highsec means PVPers are at the bare minimum not buying ships (most likely they're getting bored and quitting). No ships bought means no producers making ships and mods meaning no ores or resources bought meaning all of your professions save for missioning are now worthless. Worthless professions mean people get bored and quit.

Are you getting it yet or should I bust out MSpaint?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#167 - 2012-05-31 00:38:15 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
There HAS to be a downside somewhere, and that downside is CONCORD being not-perfect at their job. If you removed the downside, literally EVERYONE would live in highsec. There'd be no reason at all to even attempt to live in low or null.


There's no reason at all to even attempt to live in low or null even if you removed CONCORD from hi sec.
Low and null cater to a minority of players who actively choose to go live there.

All the others don't go there because of the much ISK to be made in hi sec (actually it's a certain 0.0 alliance subsidizing welfare ship insurance to the whole server, not an hi sec e-rich one).

All the others don't go there because there's nothing expecially fun to do in there. Only reason I could ever have to return in 0.0 is to do the anomalies I could not do when I have been there due to lack of SP. PvP? Low sec is better, no sov, no CTA, no politics, less blobs and no 40 jumps to go anywhere.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#168 - 2012-05-31 00:52:02 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:


I've always been on the philosophy that Eve needs a nurturing environment for new players. It seems CCP doesn't see it that way. I hope they're right in their direction.



Don't forget that CCP are the developers who invented Boot.ini, T20, Incarna and Unified UI.

For unfathomable reasons they believe that changing hundreds of module names into bland, r3tarded names magically makes the game more attractive to newbies.

At the same time, they wonder why newbies actually are not attracted at all after they get gang-bukkake to legendary levels.
Probably, maybe, a newbie is not invested in EvE enough to withstand all the elite MUST PLAY OUR WAY OR DIE NAO and just go play something more fun, like Paint-drying or grass growth simulator.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#169 - 2012-05-31 00:54:19 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:

Holy crap: That game was terrible. It's the first MMO I ever uninstalled the same day I purchased it. Didn't it have another name at some point?


Well it was terrible, but after a lot of managers and developers changes they are still here alive and kicking.

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Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#170 - 2012-05-31 00:57:37 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Ok, so assuming that 70% of the population, there corps, friends, ect move to highsec, you wouldn't be able to produce those ships to begin with because of lack of resources, not to mention the complete and utter void of several key resources that can't be aquired in those sectors of space.


I think you're beginning to understand.

Durgain wrote:
I think pvp in general should be a "choice" people get to make, not a nessecarity for everyone.


Despite this being a game in space, activities engaged in do not occur in a vacuum. If you think PVP should be a choice you are playing the wrong game. I tell you what, put a thread in F&I requesting a stand-alone server with NO-PVP anywhere in the entire game just for a test or lulz or whatever and see how long your "Utopian" existence lasts.

Durgain wrote:
Wardecs and factional pvp can effect people in a/an 100% safe enviroment in this game as it stands anyhow.


You are absolutely right but you left out suicide ganking, a practice condoned and not discouraged against by the very people you pay your sub fees to and who work tirelessly to bring you expansions that everyone hates and bitches about on the forum here. I feel for CCP they really do have a thankless job of satisfying whiners and you want to add more whining to that.

Durgain wrote:
But again, I don't considering "ganking" to be pvp anyhow. pvp = player vs player. if there's no vs in that equation because the other "player" can't fight back, it's not pvp. That's just someone who's got an underdeveloped ego that's in desperate need of a lolipop and a pat on the back[/b].


I really do not care what you do or do not consider PVP. In most instances you may be right. I suggest that instead of calling suicide ganking PVP we call it PVB - player vs. bot. And if you accidentally get ganked but are not a bot I am sure the entire PVP community will offer you a written apology as follows:

"Sorry, thought you were a bot. You all look the same to me."

Or we can call it PVE = Players vs. Exhumers.


"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#171 - 2012-05-31 01:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Snow Axe wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
So PvP stops entirely when suicide ganking stops? Or are you saying all the PvP people will move to PvE?

I am confused as to why there would no longer be PvP?


I'm saying that if highsec becomes 100% safe, nobody will live in null or low, at all, full stop. No populations in PVP'able areas combined with the complete lack of PVP in highsec means PVPers are at the bare minimum not buying ships (most likely they're getting bored and quitting). No ships bought means no producers making ships and mods meaning no ores or resources bought meaning all of your professions save for missioning are now worthless. Worthless professions mean people get bored and quit.

Are you getting it yet or should I bust out MSpaint?


See the hypocrisy of this?

When incursioneers cried against the nerf, they claimed they did incursions for the social aspects of it. Got the nerf they are back to L4.

If they made hi sec 100% safe (not asking myself to happen) you state PvPers would all go to hi sec.

So, why the f*ck PVPers went to 0.0 for, to begin with? I believed they went to 0.0 to PvP not because hi sec is worse.

Hell what a pathetic bunch, I only play PvP games and I have yet to see one where PvPers choose to return in the no PvP zones forever "because we make more ISK and there's less risk there".

I suggest you start trimming your numbers, il looks like you got many opportunists, butt cheek lickers, brown nosers but very few who would stay out there to PvP regardless of other game sectors mechanics.

One of the worst PvP mechanics (skill-less mouse clicker PvP with 10 seconds to react, no real collision, no line of sight, no terrain advantage features...) games seem to only foster opportunists who will happily forfeit said PvP to return in the starter areas.

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Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-05-31 01:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Durgain
Snow Axe wrote:
It's not trying hard. You're involved in PVP. If you don't like that, well truthfully I don't care. You're involved, though. I can't PVP without people producing ships. You produce ships, that allows me to PVP. Hence, you're involved. This isn't exactly an esoteric concept.

etc. etc. etc. cut for simplicity


You honestly think the entire player based is going to move to 1 and .9 security space leaving behind all there titans, carriers, supercarriers. etc. and move to highsec if it was completely safe? I somehow strongly doupt that.

People would have to leave those sections of space at some point to get anything done in game to begin with, leaving them open to "ganking" and player killing to begin with.

It honestly sounds to me like your trying to jusify the fact that you can kill unprotected people in highsec without any reprocussions.

Or that your afraid that you free "killing ground" would go away.

I don't really understand people that get a high on making other peoples day misserable to begin with though, my mind doesn't really function that way.
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#173 - 2012-05-31 01:07:07 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:


It's not trying hard. You're involved in PVP. If you don't like that, well truthfully I don't care. You're involved, though. I can't PVP without people producing ships. You produce ships, that allows me to PVP. Hence, you're involved. This isn't exactly an esoteric concept.



The freedom you have in highsec is that, because of CONCORD, there can only really be certain kinds of attacks on you. People can't just jump you for the hell of it, they need a certain kind of fit (which they will lose) that can deal X amount of damage (your tank) in Y amount of time (CONCORD response). If they fail any of these conditions, you live and they die. That's quite a far cry from being able to be shot anytime, anywhere with the only possible intervention being other players.

If miners are too lazy and stupid to use the knowledge they have (gank ships are pretty uniform) to either withstand ganks (this may mean not using your precious Hulk!!!!) or to become unattractive targets (BS mining, non-exhumer mining since covetors and the like don't get our payouts), then it's THEIR FAULT THEY DIE. This isn't even covering crazier options like moving to lowsec so you can have proper protection with you, or god forbid looking into a null corp and mining in grav sites.


Sounds like Eve isn't 100% safe. It shouldn't be. There are many ways around it, but they all involve lowering your potential yield in exchange for safety (a decision PVPers have to make all the time with respect to tank vs firepower, mobility, tackle, ECM, etc). If miners refuse to do this, the problem becomes soley theirs. They aren't worth pity or consideration, as that kind of laziness is NEVER the route of anything that is good.


I'm saying that if highsec becomes 100% safe, nobody will live in null or low, at all, full stop. No populations in PVP'able areas combined with the complete lack of PVP in highsec means PVPers are at the bare minimum not buying ships (most likely they're getting bored and quitting). No ships bought means no producers making ships and mods meaning no ores or resources bought meaning all of your professions save for missioning are now worthless. Worthless professions mean people get bored and quit.

Are you getting it yet or should I bust out MSpaint?


I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.

Also, stop insisting that fitting a tank will solve the problem. You are either Ganked or not. Don't matter if you have max tank on your hulk or not.

Bull crap taking away ganking in hi sec will do such a thing. You are just as likely to know what the outcome of it is as i am. And somehow you insist that PvP will grind to a halt. Do you not remember wardecs and such. Wouldn't that make wardecs actually worth a crap finally?

And sorry, It gets annoying doing separate quotes, so excuse me if I do sort of a point by point response to stop the quote insanity. hehe.
Juess
The Order of Cerberus
#174 - 2012-05-31 01:09:22 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:


It's not trying hard. You're involved in PVP. If you don't like that, well truthfully I don't care. You're involved, though. I can't PVP without people producing ships. You produce ships, that allows me to PVP. Hence, you're involved. This isn't exactly an esoteric concept.



The freedom you have in highsec is that, because of CONCORD, there can only really be certain kinds of attacks on you. People can't just jump you for the hell of it, they need a certain kind of fit (which they will lose) that can deal X amount of damage (your tank) in Y amount of time (CONCORD response). If they fail any of these conditions, you live and they die. That's quite a far cry from being able to be shot anytime, anywhere with the only possible intervention being other players.

If miners are too lazy and stupid to use the knowledge they have (gank ships are pretty uniform) to either withstand ganks (this may mean not using your precious Hulk!!!!) or to become unattractive targets (BS mining, non-exhumer mining since covetors and the like don't get our payouts), then it's THEIR FAULT THEY DIE. This isn't even covering crazier options like moving to lowsec so you can have proper protection with you, or god forbid looking into a null corp and mining in grav sites.


Sounds like Eve isn't 100% safe. It shouldn't be. There are many ways around it, but they all involve lowering your potential yield in exchange for safety (a decision PVPers have to make all the time with respect to tank vs firepower, mobility, tackle, ECM, etc). If miners refuse to do this, the problem becomes soley theirs. They aren't worth pity or consideration, as that kind of laziness is NEVER the route of anything that is good.


I'm saying that if highsec becomes 100% safe, nobody will live in null or low, at all, full stop. No populations in PVP'able areas combined with the complete lack of PVP in highsec means PVPers are at the bare minimum not buying ships (most likely they're getting bored and quitting). No ships bought means no producers making ships and mods meaning no ores or resources bought meaning all of your professions save for missioning are now worthless. Worthless professions mean people get bored and quit.

Are you getting it yet or should I bust out MSpaint?


I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.

Also, stop insisting that fitting a tank will solve the problem. You are either Ganked or not. Don't matter if you have max tank on your hulk or not.

Bull crap taking away ganking in hi sec will do such a thing. You are just as likely to know what the outcome of it is as i am. And somehow you insist that PvP will grind to a halt. Do you not remember wardecs and such. Wouldn't that make wardecs actually worth a crap finally?

And sorry, It gets annoying doing separate quotes, so excuse me if I do sort of a point by point response to stop the quote insanity. hehe.


If PVE is not PVP then how come so many miners got ganked in Hulkageddon V?
Edward Khurelem
Khurelem Research and Development
#175 - 2012-05-31 01:23:13 UTC
Ahh the generic "Quit game because some-one doesn't play by the way I like to play"! Its getting stupid, the ones who survive any turmoil as those who adapt to the environment they are in. If you can't stand what the Goon Squad are doing MOVE TO NULL-SEC. Jeez ... its not that hard.

I've lost ships to this event and yes, I blame the fact that my hulks were poorly fitted, not aligned and I was AFK majority of the time I was in High-sec Mining. I wasn't paying attention to Local, nor was I aware of my surroundings. First thing, I learned when i moved to Null-sec is that you always have to have the right fittings, aware of local and your surroundings and always be aligned if something happens.

ADAPT or DIe
Edward Khurelem
Khurelem Research and Development
#176 - 2012-05-31 01:23:44 UTC
oops sorry double post
EVE Roy Mustang
Doomheim
#177 - 2012-05-31 01:26:02 UTC
They already have, and theyve made teir decision. Guess which side they chose
(its not yours)
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-05-31 01:27:32 UTC
Juess wrote:
[quote=Spikeflach]

If PVE is not PVP then how come so many miners got ganked in Hulkageddon V?


Well, it wasn't because the asteroids were actually players in cloaked ships shooting back at the hulk and im pretty sure the hulk wasn't melting away the player operated asteroids...

Now if only there were a way to gank the ganker before the ganker ganks you...cept if you could reverse gank, your hulk would meet concord doom.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#179 - 2012-05-31 01:29:46 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
[I dont know why you have to continue to push the idea that everything done in eve is PvP even when its PvE. By your logic, when i pay my taxes, it is me who is shooting people in whatever war the US is in. Since my money funds the military right?

Yes PvE funds PvP. But PVE is not PvP.

Being in hi sec means concord can come when someone shoots you on purpose or accident. The person being "ganked" is helpless to try to fight back as once the gank is initiated, its over.

Also, stop insisting that fitting a tank will solve the problem. You are either Ganked or not. Don't matter if you have max tank on your hulk or not.

Bull crap taking away ganking in hi sec will do such a thing. You are just as likely to know what the outcome of it is as i am. And somehow you insist that PvP will grind to a halt. Do you not remember wardecs and such. Wouldn't that make wardecs actually worth a crap finally?

And sorry, It gets annoying doing separate quotes, so excuse me if I do sort of a point by point response to stop the quote insanity. hehe.


You're involved in PVP, quite directly as it is literally not possible without you. It may sound kind of like semantics, but the point is you can't ever "opt out" of it. You're a part of the machine that makes it possible. You have to accept the downsides that come with the upsides of even being able to do what it is you do. That's all I was going for.

Tanks CAN solve the problem, actually. Gankers don't just fly in and shoo the first Hulk they see, they'll scan it first (with a neutral character) and size up (a) whether or not they can even break you with what they have and (b) whether you've got loot that can drop. Of course, the right number of ships can break your tank, but if you don't have terribly valuable mods, chances are gankers aren't going to be calling in friends to break you, not all the time anyway. If you're mining in a battleship, they won't even touch you since even if they COULD break you, all you've got are T2 lasers to sell, and that's not even worth the effort, let alone the loss.

It absolutely would do that, because you have to ask yourself - how do you remove ganking, completely? Two ways: one, make CONCORD reaction times instant, or two, make it not possible to fire on non-wartargets in highsec. Both of those have the effect of making the space they're in 100% safe, which makes them far and away the best place to live - highsec already IS one of the best places to live in the game, and proposals like removing ganking would just push that past the point where it can even be fixed. As for wardecs, they're easily avoided. Drop corp, dec shield, never undock until done, etc. Granted, changes to wardecs *could* fix that, but it's still limited and consentual PVP, which is not what very large portions of the game signed up for.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Johnny Rook
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#180 - 2012-05-31 01:32:21 UTC
The market is the core of Eve. The market is run on loss. The vast majority of loss is from players killing players. If you are immune to being killed by players you have pretty much removed yourself from the loss side of the equation. Doing this by crying to CCP rather than by limiting your losses by being smart sets a dangerous precedent of the game being dumbed down.

The reason Eve's population grows year on year is because there is no other game like it. It's a player run universe with a number of mechanics but very few hard rules. Trying to make it like any other game will kill it faster than a handful of people canceling their subs because they are playing the wrong game.