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CCP needs to take a hard look at Goonswarm and Hulkageddon to save EVE.
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Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-05-30 23:40:25 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:


...The only mistake in any of this nonsense is believing that a small minority of whining babies who scream about unsubbing and then never actually do is representative of anything at all.



Spikeflach wrote:
I'd be amazed to see a tidal wave of subs to be cancelled because of not being able to suicide gank. I can't imagine there are numbers that huge that depend entirely on the ability to suicide gank in hi-sec space.

Though I guess there must be a lot more people dependant on suicide ganking than there are people who play the PvE aspects of eve.


Nobody will unsub because they can't suicide gank. They'd unsub because of what removing it represents - a sea change in CCP's philosophy and vision of the game. A change that moves away from Eve being a rather unforgiving universe without safety towards a game that actually allows it. This is unobjectively a Very Bad Thing.

Seriously, you need to stop thinking of this as just about suicide ganking in a vacuum - that might be what the current issue is, but what's as stake is something far larger. The movement against ganking is driven by wanting highsec to be 100% safe, and the backlash is from people who see what that would lead to and object to it. Suicide ganking is just a small (yet necessary) part of that.


PvP is one thing, Player Versus Player, when you are not shooting an actual player, you are not doing PvP.

Quote:
Spamming forum threads is not a representation of anything, and besides, the threads are full of back and forth about the issue. Trying to say "THERE'S LOTS GOING ON ABOUT IT, EVERYONE MUST BE AGAINST IT" is as disingenuous as it gets.


And if these threads are just whine posts, why does anyone go through the bother of substantiating their stance towards or against whats going on?

Is it because the people who like suicide ganking are afraid something will change?

Hi sec is a whole different ballpark than 0.0 space. You can essentially do whatever the heck you want in 0.0 space, and the possibility of making suicide ganking impossible in hi sec would just mean people could go take their ganking to 0.0.

But there in-lies the problem of 0.0, the fact that 0.0 is 10 times more carebear than hi sec. Your risk is absolutely 0 unless you are completely stupid and don't get safe when some tiny non-blue meanders into your system. 50 titans could hop into your system, and you can have absolutely no losses because you can either escape or fashion an even larger fleet.


Quote:
Larger? Than what? 0? Do you have any actual numbers of any actual value?


Do you really want someone to put a +1 post up with all this spam? of which it will fill up with the same people spamming these posts.

And really anyone who looks to "use the sandbox and do something about it" will sure as heck get lots of flack from the people posting against such ideas as fixing ganking.
HVAC Repairman
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2012-05-30 23:44:40 UTC
Durgain wrote:
HVAC Repairman wrote:
EVE is a hard game. CCP isn't going to dumb it down and make changes to the core gameplay. In fact, go watch the fanfest video where the head marketing guy is giving his presentation -- he essentially said there what we're saying right now. You can't have a sense of achievement without risk


That's true, but you do also need to relise that there are different levels of risk vs reward, and that there are different aspects to that that effect the players involved. Some people don't want to see pvp as a risk in areas of the game it shouldn't be and pvp doesn't haveta be part of a risk equation on a well thought out game.

That's already been proven based on the current and past sales of the most PvE based mmo out there :P
You're arguing for a core mechanic change that CCP staff have been on record, as recently as last fanfest, stating will never change. Every choice you make has positive or negative ramifications, same with every other player regardless. What some people want is irrelevant. EVE's environment is heavily inspired by UO, and we all know what happened there heh.

Also, EVE is not a PVE game. It has some PVE content, sure, but it's not a PVE game.

Follow me on twitter
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#143 - 2012-05-30 23:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Axel Wolfstar wrote:
I like this change. Mining in high sec is something I do while I run missions with an alt. It's not exciting. Now low sec mining on the other hand... that's fun. Dodging pirates, scouting ahead, and when my crew gets lazy and secure here comes a rifter to tackle us for his pirate buddies.

Problem with low sec mining is it's poor risk to reward balance. I'd love to see that change and if permanent Hulkagedon can do that, I'm all for it.

CCP Diagoras has already said lowsec/nullsec mining has increased.

Glad to see people are actually embracing it. FWIW lowsec grav sites are pretty safe - if you see someone enter local, start watching for probes. Otherwise, no need to scurry from the belts.

I've even seen, shock horror, defended mining ops!

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#144 - 2012-05-30 23:48:59 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Null has all of these things (save L5 missions) and in many of them (deadspace pockets, highend ores) is an order of magnitude better than Lowsec, without any of the complications provided by lowsec (gate guns, sec status hits, no bubbles/bombs). That's why lowsec needs serious love, outside of Faction Warfare, there's barely any reason at all to be there unless you're either hunting people or on your way to null.

[Cut to remove waste]

Here's what you fail to understand: your game (low risk highsec) DEPENDS on my game (PVP wherever) to function. Are you mining? You need demand for ores, and if we're not blowing up ships fighting each other (or losing them to CONCORD), nobody's buying ships or modules, which means nobody will be producing them, which means nobody is buying your ores. That's bad, and also affects anyone else on the chain - moon miners (the low and null variety), T1 producers, T2 producers, blueprint researchers, market dabblers/speculators, people who haul for money (sup Red Frog/Black Frog). Without us losing ships, the game grinds to a halt.

To sum it up, you can choose not to participate in shooting other players (though beware, those same players might not grant you the same mercy), but you can never truly separate yourself from PVP. You're a part of it, whether you like it or not. The entirey of Eve *IS* PVP. It's not opt-out, and it never will be.


I consider 0.0 and null to be lowsec since there pvp areas, wormholes as well, and I do understand that my industry/mining side of gameplay is effected by your pvp. However, again, what does that have to do with me getting involved in it. I'm just the dealer, what you do with the weapons or equipment is up to you, although I'd hope you'd be responsible with it.

Again, I still don't understand how any of what you said means that highsec shouldn't be 100% safe.

Is it because if you couldn't blow people up in highsec you wouldn't have anything to do because you can only fight players that are unprepared to fight back?
Spikeflach
Perkone
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-05-30 23:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Spikeflach
Snow Axe wrote:

So I still don't see how having highsec, or at least 1 and .9 space being 100% safe, would effect the game overall.

Here's what you fail to understand: your game (low risk highsec) DEPENDS on my game (PVP wherever) to function. Are you mining? You need demand for ores, and if we're not blowing up ships fighting each other (or losing them to CONCORD), nobody's buying ships or modules, which means nobody will be producing them, which means nobody is buying your ores. That's bad, and also affects anyone else on the chain - moon miners (the low and null variety), T1 producers, T2 producers, blueprint researchers, market dabblers/speculators, people who haul for money (sup Red Frog/Black Frog). Without us losing ships, the game grinds to a halt.

To sum it up, you can choose not to participate in shooting other players (though beware, those same players might not grant you the same mercy), but you can never truly separate yourself from PVP. You're a part of it, whether you like it or not. The entirey of Eve *IS* PVP. It's not opt-out, and it never will be.


Do you not understand supply and demand?

If people are not getting blown up in hi sec, the demand for such items goes down, and the profitability of those things go down, and the profitability of hi sec goes down.

If profitability of hi sec goes down, then players would seek to move where its more profitable. (lowsec and 0.0?)

Wardecs also exist. Suicide ganking isn't the only thing that kills ships.

You can be shot anywhere in eve, but that doesn't make eve a PvP only game.

Perhaps its time to petition to remove all PvE content as its not PvP oriented?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#146 - 2012-05-30 23:50:49 UTC
Spikeflach wrote:
Though I guess there must be a lot more people dependant on suicide ganking than there are people who play the PvE aspects of eve.


People who play the PVE aspects of EVE are the ONLY people dependent on PVP. If PVP did not happen no one would need to buy new ships and mods. If no one buys them there is no profit in building them. If no one is building them there is no point in mining the minerals.

There is no NPC market to sell minerals in. What point is there in mining if you can't sell your minerals? So you can fill a station hangar with a bunch of rocks and then shiptoast about how you can't sell any of your stuff?

Without PVP there is no point to mining - period.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2012-05-30 23:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Spikeflach wrote:
PvP is one thing, Player Versus Player, when you are not shooting an actual player, you are not doing PvP.


You absolutely are - if you've sold a scrap of ore, sold a single module or piece of salvage from a mission, let alone produced it, you've participated in PVP. Who do you think bought that ship or module your resources eventually built?


Spikeflach wrote:
And if these threads are just whine posts, why does anyone go through the bother of substantiating their stance towards or against whats going on?

Is it because the people who like suicide ganking are afraid something will change?


Think of it like stamping out a spark to make sure it doesn't become a flame. You call it fear, we call it good practice.

Spikeflach wrote:
Hi sec is a whole different ballpark than 0.0 space. You can essentially do whatever the heck you want in 0.0 space, and the possibility of making suicide ganking impossible in hi sec would just mean people could go take their ganking to 0.0.

But there in-lies the problem of 0.0, the fact that 0.0 is 10 times more carebear than hi sec. Your risk is absolutely 0 unless you are completely stupid and don't get safe when some tiny non-blue meanders into your system. 50 titans could hop into your system, and you can have absolutely no losses because you can either escape or fashion an even larger fleet.


IF null is safe (it isn't) it's because players banded together to make it that way. We recognized that the lack of highsec/lowsec restrictions would allow us to do such a thing, and we did it. That said, we're never, EVER safe in null. Anyone who wants to come in and shoot at the first thing they see can just go ahead and do it, no questions asked.

Compare this to what's happening with Hulkageddon victims - they get popped, fully within the game mechanics, and instead of thinking "how can I make that not happen?" they come straight to the forums and whine, cry and tantrum, all while rejecting anything that resembles advice since it's not literally the exact to-the-T thing they were already doing. That's pathetic, no matter where you stand.

Spikeflach wrote:
Do you really want someone to put a +1 post up with all this spam? of which it will fill up with the same people spamming these posts.

And really anyone who looks to "use the sandbox and do something about it" will sure as heck get lots of flack from the people posting against such ideas as fixing ganking.


My overall point is that the forums are hardly a representation of anything. Large swaths of the game ignore its existence completely (you need only look at the CSM votes yearly to realize this). Using it as a gauge of anything like overall player satisfaction is pointless.


Spikeflach wrote:
Do you not understand supply and demand?

If people are not getting blown up in hi sec, the demand for such items goes down, and the profitability of those things go down, and the profitability of hi sec goes down.

If profitability of hi sec goes down, then players would seek to move where its more profitable. (lowsec and 0.0?)

Wardecs also exist. Suicide ganking isn't the only thing that kills ships.

You can be shot anywhere in eve, but that doesn't make eve a PvP only game.

Perhaps its time to petition to remove all PvE content as its not PvP oriented?


Are you really this stupid? It's not just the profitability of highsec, it's the proftiability of the ENTIRE GAME. No modules or ships needed, NOTHING gets built, meaning anyone who produces resources in any area of the game is SCREWED. Completely.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#148 - 2012-05-30 23:56:19 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Spikeflach wrote:
Though I guess there must be a lot more people dependant on suicide ganking than there are people who play the PvE aspects of eve.


People who play the PVE aspects of EVE are the ONLY people dependent on PVP. If PVP did not happen no one would need to buy new ships and mods. If no one buys them there is no profit in building them. If no one is building them there is no point in mining the minerals.

There is no NPC market to sell minerals in. What point is there in mining if you can't sell your minerals? So you can fill a station hangar with a bunch of rocks and then shiptoast about how you can't sell any of your stuff?

Without PVP there is no point to mining - period.

You don't understand. They want PVP to happen, just not near them.

They're eve's version of NIMBY's

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Mathias Hex
#149 - 2012-05-30 23:56:51 UTC
I Like EVE alot but I wish there was a SWG2 out there. Was my first MMO and I was all like no ******* way this is so cool I'm never leaving. I left after the first month of grinding tbh, but like a addict I keep searching for that first high Big smile

/on topic, no opinion...

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#150 - 2012-05-30 23:58:26 UTC
James 315 wrote:
The only way EVE dies is if highsec miners get their way and have CCP remove non-consensual PvP from the game. Since PvP is the only reason why any rational person would choose to play EVE instead of a game with better PvE, PvP is the lifeblood of EVE. You and highsec miners like you are trying to suck the life out of EVE.

Are we supposed to thank you? Roll


Who would ever want to do anomalies, trading and industry in EvE, eh? With so many better economy simulations and more in depth industry MMOs out there.

Oh wait, there aren't.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2012-05-30 23:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
James 315 wrote:
The only way EVE dies is if highsec miners get their way and have CCP remove non-consensual PvP from the game. Since PvP is the only reason why any rational person would choose to play EVE instead of a game with better PvE, PvP is the lifeblood of EVE. You and highsec miners like you are trying to suck the life out of EVE.

Are we supposed to thank you? Roll


Rationality has nothing to do with why people choose to play Eve. That statement isn't meant to marginalize why people play the game in the way yours was meant to do.

There are many aspects to the game. Unfortunately, mining being a starter profession, the bullshit Goons are being allowed to unleash on the game will hit new players the hardest.

Simply put, what's happening here is that older players are being allowed to grief newer players. CCP will either allow it or they won't. If they do allow it as an on-going aspect of gaming then I expect the numbers of players to start trailing off. If one looks at the latest numbers, they're doing exactly that. But perhaps that's a seasonal effect.

I've always been on the philosophy that Eve needs a nurturing environment for new players. It seems CCP doesn't see it that way. I hope they're right in their direction.

The rise in prices across the board and summations of what is happening to the playerbase is not indicative of a healthy market. It points to a more disturbing trend of lack of supply. Those of us who can't be arsed to mine ad nausem and pursue the tedium of crafting will instead turn towards other games for entertainment. When that point is reached you should see a more dramatic decline in numbers.

Good luck CCP.

Don't ban me, bro!
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#152 - 2012-05-31 00:02:42 UTC
Seishi Maru wrote:


but for now.. youa re the onecrying.. so that means you are loosing.


Loosing, like loosening? Loosening his tears upon the playerbase? No, that doesn't make sense either.

Let's just have a visit to dictionary.com and learn the difference between "lose" and "loose." ;D
Johnny Rook
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#153 - 2012-05-31 00:03:34 UTC
Durgain wrote:


I consider 0.0 and null to be lowsec since there pvp areas, wormholes as well, and I do understand that my industry/mining side of gameplay is effected by your pvp. However, again, what does that have to do with me getting involved in it. I'm just the dealer, what you do with the weapons or equipment is up to you, although I'd hope you'd be responsible with it.

Again, I still don't understand how any of what you said means that highsec shouldn't be 100% safe.

Is it because if you couldn't blow people up in highsec you wouldn't have anything to do because you can only fight players that are unprepared to fight back?


I'm sure you would like to profiteer off PvP while being completely immune to it. No risk no reward.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#154 - 2012-05-31 00:04:43 UTC
Durgain wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:
Seriously, you need to stop thinking of this as just about suicide ganking in a vacuum - that might be what the current issue is, but what's as stake is something far larger. The movement against ganking is driven by wanting highsec to be 100% safe, and the backlash is from people who see what that would lead to and object to it. Suicide ganking is just a small (yet necessary) part of that.


What's fundementally wrong with highsec being 100% safe? or at least 1.0 and 0.9? Question

Low sec players already have a ton of advantages over us players that will never see .5 or lower (I admit to being one of those players since i have a complete dislike of pvp in general) and generally just want to be left alone to do whatever I want to do at the time.


What is fundamentally wrong with that is that people live in hi-sec under the illusion of safety. They do not venture into low and null where you claim PVP is "supposed" to happen. A PVP enthusiast depends on having something to shoot at in order to have any enjoyment in the game. That is what PVP is. If there are few targets in low sec where is a Pirate going to do to find targets? Go to where the targets are.

Now let's just say you get your way - 100% NO PVP in 0.9-1.0 systems. Those same people that are living in high sec now will move themselves and ALL of their assets into these little pockets of "YAY \o/ safe space". Last I heard 70% of the population live in high sec (if someone has better or more accurate numbers please correct me). Let's just estimate that 0.9-1.0 represents only 10% of the systems in the known universe (again another estimation please post if you have more accurate numbers). What that means is that you are packing 70% of the population into 10% of the systems - systems that have LIMITED resources; limited asteroid belts and limited server resources. What you are suggesting in making 10% of the systems into Jita 2.0.

Additionally, because all of the targets are now sufficiently wrapped up in their cozy little blankets of 100% NO PVP, the PVP element of this game goes away. As I stated before NO PVP - no ships - no building - no mining.

Hate PVP all you want - but it is the only reason that mining is necessary.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#155 - 2012-05-31 00:06:37 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Kiteo Hatto wrote:
Quote:
I know this is a sandbox, but if the the sandbox fills up with **** you need to throw it out and get new sand.


Its a sandbox where only bullies are allowed to play, everyone else gets told to "adapt" to their way. The irony of it being "the sandbox" game.


No, everyone is allowed to play, but everyone plays in the same sandbox, and the strong dictate how things work, because they are able to enforce it.


It was urgent to reproduce the same RL bullsh!t in a game.

If a video game players really wanted to live a life where the strong and the mafia poops in the face of everybody else and displayed endless arrogance while peeing in your face, then all they could do is to log off and return living their life. Costs less, is even more realistic and frees more time to get out with people who are not actually that bad.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#156 - 2012-05-31 00:07:13 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
There are many aspects to the game. Unfortunately, mining being a starter profession, the bullshit Goons are being allowed to unleash on the game will hit new players the hardest.


/sigh

New players aren't flying Exhumer hulls.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#157 - 2012-05-31 00:10:33 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
There are many aspects to the game. Unfortunately, mining being a starter profession, the bullshit Goons are being allowed to unleash on the game will hit new players the hardest.

/sigh

New players aren't flying Exhumer hulls.

You don't say. Takes quite a bit of SPing and some isk to get into a hulk.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Najenna
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
#158 - 2012-05-31 00:12:23 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
When I see statements like this I start wondering how many are actually Goon alts creating there own controversy on the forums.


Cool^^ This. Bear
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#159 - 2012-05-31 00:14:09 UTC
Najenna wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
When I see statements like this I start wondering how many are actually Goon alts creating there own controversy on the forums.

Cool^^ This. Bear

Ha ha ha, I wonder myself.

Does half a page or more of whine threads really pop up on it's own?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Durgain
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-05-31 00:14:38 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:

What is fundamentally wrong with that is that people live in hi-sec under the illusion of safety. They do not venture into low and null where you claim PVP is "supposed" to happen. A PVP enthusiast depends on having something to shoot at in order to have any enjoyment in the game. That is what PVP is. If there are few targets in low sec where is a Pirate going to do to find targets? Go to where the targets are.

Now let's just say you get your way - 100% NO PVP in 0.9-1.0 systems. Those same people that are living in high sec now will move themselves and ALL of their assets into these little pockets of "YAY \o/ safe space". Last I heard 70% of the population live in high sec (if someone has better or more accurate numbers please correct me). Let's just estimate that 0.9-1.0 represents only 10% of the systems in the known universe (again another estimation please post if you have more accurate numbers). What that means is that you are packing 70% of the population into 10% of the systems - systems that have LIMITED resources; limited asteroid belts and limited server resources. What you are suggesting in making 10% of the systems into Jita 2.0.

Additionally, because all of the targets are now sufficiently wrapped up in their cozy little blankets of 100% NO PVP, the PVP element of this game goes away. As I stated before NO PVP - no ships - no building - no mining.

Hate PVP all you want - but it is the only reason that mining is necessary.


Ok, so assuming that 70% of the population, there corps, friends, ect move to highsec, you wouldn't be able to produce those ships to begin with because of lack of resources, not to mention the complete and utter void of several key resources that can't be aquired in those sectors of space.

I think pvp in general should be a "choice" people get to make, not a nessecarity for everyone.

Wardecs and factional pvp can effect people in a/an 100% safe enviroment in this game as it stands anyhow.

But again, I don't considering "ganking" to be pvp anyhow. pvp = player vs player. if there's no vs in that equation because the other "player" can't fight back, it's not pvp. That's just someone who's got an underdeveloped ego that's in desperate need of a lolipop and a pat on the back.