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Ally wardec system allready showing its flaws ?
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S0ns Of Anarchy
#81 - 2012-05-29 17:00:47 UTC
Fuji 9000 wrote:
Plentath wrote:
It works fine.
If you want a powerful ally that will actually hunt and destroy the target effectively, pay for it like you would before.

you're missing the point, why hire a 'powerful ally' and pay them what they are worth, when you can hire unlimited scrubs for free?
most corps/alliances will go the free option


And they'll get what they pay for.

People that ally for free will just do it for the free targets, but certainly won't do the comprehensive campaign a good professional outfit will do. People that use the ally system to get free target certainly won't focus on your enemies, as they are likely to have many to chose from and going for the most convenient for them, not for you.

Free allies are just a thorn in your enemies feet, but if you want them to really feel some heat and competent people focusing their efforts on them you'll have to pay for it. No one will escort your mining op for free, no one will rep your POS for free. Everyone will gank a lone hauler for free, but do you really think it can change the tide of war?

This change is pretty good, it's only bad for terrible mercs (of which there is plenty).
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#82 - 2012-05-29 17:30:40 UTC
Meh. I've been saying the ally system was a broken concept from the first time they announced it. CCP ignored the pleas of those few of us who spoke out and went ahead with it as originally planned.

It's going to get stupid, we're going to abuse certain features of it, and hopefully CCP will get wise and fix it in a decent amount of time.

Meanwhile, war *is* fun again. No more dec scraping!

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#83 - 2012-05-30 02:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You're confusing "can be hired for free" with "will always be free"

It's supply and demand. If I chose to go ratting and sell all my faction drops for less than T2 prices this doesn't mean CCP needs to "fix" faction drops to stop them being offered for free.

One of those allies out there is my alt corp. I only log that toon in if I can be bothered. Would anyone pay for this? No. So what precisely is the issue in me offering this "service" for free?

If you think people will pay less for Noir. because you can hire people to semi-enthusiastically camp Jita 4-4 then you're not assigning much value to the product you're offering.


What? Like how dec shields "might occasionally get used to protect hi sec poses". Are you seriously telling me that players in EVE will not learn, expose and take advantage of every possible loophole. What game are you playing?

You're kinda missing the point I was making, which is nothing to do with the ISK income for mercs - although this is a factor many people have expressed. And, as it happens, Noir. prefers null sec work and advertises as such. Not that I particularly need to defend my position on this but your lame comment is probably worth a sentence or two to shout down.

The main point I was making was: the ally system in its current for is designed to dissuade any and all hi-sec wars. Take a look at my example - the alliance that decs first will always be at a potential disadvantage because whilst the defender can add allies the aggressor cannot.

I do accept your point that "can be" does not mean "will always be" but in these cases I think it is worth theory-testing the extremes.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#84 - 2012-05-30 10:24:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Wacktopia wrote:
What? Like how dec shields "might occasionally get used to protect hi sec poses". Are you seriously telling me that players in EVE will not learn, expose and take advantage of every possible loophole. What game are you playing?

Dec shielding made highsec POSes invulnerable. 2-man alt corps who can join a war without paying a 100mil dec fee don't.
Quote:
The main point I was making was: the ally system in its current for is designed to dissuade any and all hi-sec wars.

No, it's not. You're assigning far, far too much importance to small 2-man corps getting involved. It doesn't make it any less likely than before that mercs will get involved. In fact, since those mercs don't have to toss ISK into a wardec, they can now charge the same amount and take home more net ISK.

Allies are only "free and unlimited" - as you describe them - if they chose to be so.

The only way a competent bunch of players wardeccing another competent bunch of players will be at a disadvantage is if competent allies a) are hired or b) work for free.

If a) then it's working as intended. If b) then it's really the fault of the mercs for pricing themselves out of a market.

There's also option c) that the wardeccers are incompetent and easily dissuaded by having 3 man corps camp Jita. Which, I'm not so sure EvE needs to bend to cater for.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#85 - 2012-05-30 10:29:03 UTC
EVE is a NAP train.
We never knew.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#86 - 2012-05-30 11:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonlit Raid
Isokuro wrote:
This whole Ally system seems borked allready.

CCP should have never made it so that a defender allaince can ask multiple corps/ allainces
for help and why ?

instead of boosting the Merc market you just destroyed it completely because there are allready
a **** ton of corps and allaince that just ally up with everyone for having more targets.
Making it harder to actually ask a price for being someones ally for a merc.

Same goes with the wars for big allainces in nullsec.

for a quick example: Against All Authorities wardecced Pandemic Legion.
Now because of the higher wardec costs all the high sec pvp allainces and corporations are all
offering to be an ally for PL like Flies on a big fat pile of **** just so they can have these free wars.

So within a week now all the big null sec allainces have discoverd that its actually not a great idea to
officially wardec a other null sec allainces because of this chaining of allies.
leaving your fantastic features made to get a better overall look at the warstats left in the totall dark once again
and you all did it yourself by instead of leaving that number 1 ally and make limitles.
Offcourse this is my personal view but didn't CCP see this comming ?

How do others think about the new wardec system ? ( would be nice if some guys from Merc allainces could give there opinion )

You cocksuckers wanted war, well you ******* got it. You want war decs on small corps to be cheap so you can **** on the little guy, and expensive on you so it's not cost effective. Well I love this new idea that anyone can join a fight for free. Especially defending a potentially tiny corp that just want to be left alone.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#87 - 2012-05-30 16:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
What? Like how dec shields "might occasionally get used to protect hi sec poses". Are you seriously telling me that players in EVE will not learn, expose and take advantage of every possible loophole. What game are you playing?

Dec shielding made highsec POSes invulnerable. 2-man alt corps who can join a war without paying a 100mil dec fee don't.
Quote:
The main point I was making was: the ally system in its current for is designed to dissuade any and all hi-sec wars.

No, it's not. You're assigning far, far too much importance to small 2-man corps getting involved. It doesn't make it any less likely than before that mercs will get involved. In fact, since those mercs don't have to toss ISK into a wardec, they can now charge the same amount and take home more net ISK.

Allies are only "free and unlimited" - as you describe them - if they chose to be so.



I don't up-front disagree with this statement. However, it still does not answer the root of my main issue, which is...

Please look at my example. Perhaps it was not indicative enough of this issue. I will modify it to try and highlight this point...

To corps A and B. A war decs B and is charged the fee. B employs an ally X for a nominal player-based fee. A hires ally Y,who to join the war is required to also pay a war fee laid out by CCp.

My question is; why does corp X not have to pay some kind of minimum nominal war fee like corp Y and A does to join the war?

If corp X were charged some kind of game fee to join or if that fee was passed to B in some form I beleive all you say about player-based fees would come true.

Khanh'rhh wrote:


The only way a competent bunch of players wardeccing another competent bunch of players will be at a disadvantage is if competent allies a) are hired or b) work for free.

If a) then it's working as intended. If b) then it's really the fault of the mercs for pricing themselves out of a market.

There's also option c) that the wardeccers are incompetent and easily dissuaded by having 3 man corps camp Jita. Which, I'm not so sure EvE needs to bend to cater for.


I think what is true is that neiher of us can predict the actual outcome of your point b) here. It could be the ally system is like a ghost town because no-one cares that "small corp X" is being war-decced. It could be the system is inundated with people wanting to join the war for free. I see no reason to pursue this point further from my pov.

The only thing I will iterate is that my concerns in this area are not from a how-much-money-can-my-corp-make point of view, that's just business right, but from a sensible and feasible game direction based upon my earlier point.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#88 - 2012-05-30 18:21:56 UTC
I don't get it OP - isn't that what you guys wanted - to be able to shoot stuff in high sec without being Concorded? Go shoot stuff. Oh wait - what you really wanted was to shoot stuff that can't/won't take the first shot. Ah well, tough luck.
Nomad I
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2012-05-30 18:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomad I
More war is more PVP. It's ok
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#90 - 2012-05-30 19:02:20 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
I think what is true is that neiher of us can predict the actual outcome of your point b) here. It could be the ally system is like a ghost town because no-one cares that "small corp X" is being war-decced. It could be the system is inundated with people wanting to join the war for free. I see no reason to pursue this point further from my pov.

The only thing I will iterate is that my concerns in this area are not from a how-much-money-can-my-corp-make point of view, that's just business right, but from a sensible and feasible game direction based upon my earlier point.

You're being reasonable here. The whole situation needs to actually just *exist* for a while to see what happens. I'm sure if the disparate costs of getting involved in the war are an issue then CCP will look at the system and tweak it - perhaps along the lines of allowing the aggressor allies as well. Or, at the very least, complaints would be justified. At the moment there is a lot of noise from what are obviously small wardeccing corps unhappy with the changes - this is not indicative of a broken system.

I'm actually ignoring the effect of tiny corps joining a war for free, because in effect it is no different than an attacked corp hiring one other player - they're not a proper merc outfit and they're not going to replace hiring mercs.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#91 - 2012-05-30 19:31:48 UTC
Agreed.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-05-31 02:00:06 UTC
Isokuro wrote:
This whole Ally system seems borked allready.

CCP should have never made it so that a defender allaince can ask multiple corps/ allainces
for help and why ?

instead of boosting the Merc market you just destroyed it completely because there are allready
a **** ton of corps and allaince that just ally up with everyone for having more targets.
Making it harder to actually ask a price for being someones ally for a merc.

Same goes with the wars for big allainces in nullsec.

for a quick example: Against All Authorities wardecced Pandemic Legion.
Now because of the higher wardec costs all the high sec pvp allainces and corporations are all
offering to be an ally for PL like Flies on a big fat pile of **** just so they can have these free wars.

So within a week now all the big null sec allainces have discoverd that its actually not a great idea to
officially wardec a other null sec allainces because of this chaining of allies.
leaving your fantastic features made to get a better overall look at the warstats left in the totall dark once again
and you all did it yourself by instead of leaving that number 1 ally and make limitles.
Offcourse this is my personal view but didn't CCP see this comming ?

How do others think about the new wardec system ? ( would be nice if some guys from Merc allainces could give there opinion )


so... the sky fell?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

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