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Market order modification fee (anti-botting, more interesting trading)
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HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#21 - 2012-03-20 16:39:19 UTC  |  Edited by: HARD STEEL
What's are the actual differences between the how the EVE market works and a real world stock market/commodity markets?

To me it seems being able to see the list of buy/sell orders in a sorted table gives the ability to +0.01 or -0.01 - is that how the NASDAQ work? I think you need to pay to get the "order book" so maybe this IS how the NASDAQ works. Or is just the last buy/sell price is given out and the general crowd sets their buy/sell orders based on their own intel.. then the guys on the floor run around and sort out the buy/sell prices based on orders given to them? I could be way off but that's my best understanding of the difference. I would love to chat about this with someone if you know more about this fyi.

My point being why not mimic how its done in real life - i.e our system changes to copy what real markets do to stop this, or we mimic what pro real-life traders do to get around +0.01'ing

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
HARD STEEL
Caldari Capital Construction Company
#22 - 2012-03-20 16:49:46 UTC  |  Edited by: HARD STEEL
I'm going to expand and hopefully not railroad.

But a question I've had seems to be relevant to this - why are faction modules not allowed on the market (except the new quafe iteron??)

The contract system doesn't have market history so that may be way there isn't as much speculation - but yea I guess there still is micro-market competition on it.

Expanding and integrating on the implications of that question maybe a skill + standing system for market cache refresh frequency to see updated competing orders. Low or no skills you gotta wait say 6 hours, and then maybe optionally you can pay for up to the second market data?

ONLY THE HARD.  ONLY THE STRONG.
Evenus Battuta
#23 - 2012-03-20 16:58:28 UTC
One obvious flaw in your idea：

it works fine with items with high single price and low quantity in orders (like ships or implants).

but it will ruin the market of items with very low single value and huge quantity, for example, 0.01isk competion make very big difference for Tritanium orders, costing 0.1% of total order value may possibly paralyze the market.

So you should come with a better solution, for example : limit the max modification fee to not exceeding the price of a single item----it won't happen anyway although.
Evenus Battuta
#24 - 2012-03-20 17:03:37 UTC
HARD STEEL wrote:
What's are the actual differences between the how the EVE market works and a real world stock market/commodity markets?

To me it seems being able to see the list of buy/sell orders in a sorted table gives the ability to +0.01 or -0.01 - is that how the NASDAQ work? I think you need to pay to get the "order book" so maybe this IS how the NASDAQ works. Or is just the last buy/sell price is given out and the general crowd sets their buy/sell orders based on their own intel.. then the guys on the floor run around and sort out the buy/sell prices based on orders given to them? I could be way off but that's my best understanding of the difference. I would love to chat about this with someone if you know more about this fyi.

My point being why not mimic how its done in real life - i.e our system changes to copy what real markets do to stop this, or we mimic what pro real-life traders do to get around +0.01'ing



The difference is: in RL, we can choose to buy from the seller we like instead of being forced to buy from those apperently insulting 0.01isk cheaper guy
Irolan Corrino
Cosmic Forge
#25 - 2012-05-30 12:51:27 UTC
I really like the Idea of a "Market Order Modification Fee".

The way it is described by the original post would save us a lot of mindless clicking and would mean more meaningful thinking when and how much to adjust your prices.

*signed*
Dezolf
DAX Action Stance
#26 - 2012-05-30 13:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dezolf
HARD STEEL wrote:
My point being why not mimic how its done in real life - i.e our system changes to copy what real markets do to stop this, or we mimic what pro real-life traders do to get around +0.01'ing

Bots are legal IRL. See also game theory, algorithmic trading, and similar.

Also, to the OP. I fail to see how this would stop bots. It would make everything more expensive (well, from a traders POV) and seems to be a non-solution to the bot-problem.

Edit:
Oh, also. People don't .01 isk because bots exist. Bots exist because people .01 isk.

Which is alright. It makes market pvp more entertaining. Being forced to modifying ones order by a minimum amount is counterproductive. The market is a cut-throath place, and you need to work to stay on top - because that's where the profits are.
Also, certain markets depend on that .1% (or less) in order to make a profit. If anything, I think this would simply increase the spread between buy and sell.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#27 - 2012-05-30 13:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Azure Moonlight wrote:
This idea is not to hurt trade, but to make it more enjoyable.

modifying numbers in a table will not become more or less enjoyable activity.. its as enjoyable as, well, changing digits in a table man.

You're trying to hurt bots? You wont. They will still outbid you regardless of what you do, because trading in eve is changing orders. Whoever does it more often, wins more - at least in the common trade hubs. This has nothing to do with fees.

How about going somewhere else, in a quiet area you will have less competition, so less 0.01 ISK wars, more profit.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-05-30 16:29:01 UTC
Kata Amentis wrote:
Markets aren't one of my skill areas... but my initial thought is wouldn't increasing the cost of modifying the order just mean that those who make/have a lot of isk can do a 0.01 isk "war", perpetuating their isk dominance as they "win" more often... and those who don't have so much isk can't afford to fight the "war" and drop out?

or something like that... basically it favors the already rich...?



This.

This proposal just shifts the advantage from botters to rich traders. Personally, I think the botters is the lessor of the evils. Why?

1) botting is illegal (though, personally I have been a proponent of and in the past proposed the legalization of order matching bots, where you just control the algorithm it uses... ie 'match up to 5% of order size, up to this limit, by this increment' etc etc.) Think about it. Order matching bots aren't that bad, it just changes the 'game' to predicting your foes algos. IF everyone had the ability to use them equally. But I digress. It's illegal today and if you don't like them, then report the botter and CCP may ban them.

2) botts are so predictable, smart folk exploit them. I'm not going to go into details, but I have made money off of botters, and its very sweet to think of the botter tears when they realized they been had.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-05-30 16:42:48 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
HARD STEEL wrote:
What's are the actual differences between the how the EVE market works and a real world stock market/commodity markets?

To me it seems being able to see the list of buy/sell orders in a sorted table gives the ability to +0.01 or -0.01 - is that how the NASDAQ work? I think you need to pay to get the "order book" so maybe this IS how the NASDAQ works. Or is just the last buy/sell price is given out and the general crowd sets their buy/sell orders based on their own intel.. then the guys on the floor run around and sort out the buy/sell prices based on orders given to them? I could be way off but that's my best understanding of the difference. I would love to chat about this with someone if you know more about this fyi.

My point being why not mimic how its done in real life - i.e our system changes to copy what real markets do to stop this, or we mimic what pro real-life traders do to get around +0.01'ing



The difference is: in RL, we can choose to buy from the seller we like instead of being forced to buy from those apperently insulting 0.01isk cheaper guy


That depends on the market. in the FX or Equity electronic markets which are the closest to the ones in EVE, you are allowed to make as many changes to your orders as you like. So the OP is mistaken in his RL analogy (maybe he is thinking of small scale retail brokers like e-trade or something... which is really... small fry. ) The big fish, ie the real markets like inter-broker Foreign Exchange (which trillions change hands every day) have no order change fee's, traders watch their orders and change them all day, and algo trading (botting!) is allowed so you don't have to bother with 0.01 isk games, so real traders can concentrate on meta trading.
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