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EVE Online: Inferno 1.0.3 to be deployed on Tuesday, May 29th

First post
Author
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#121 - 2012-05-30 00:17:32 UTC
Wilma Lawson wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
Reprocessing low value high volume trash would be worthwhile if cargohold size was infinite, which it is not. Enjoy flying back and forth as a interstellar garbageman.

Ever hear of a Noctis?


Telling me that a particular use case defines the UI isn't the style of the game we play. Something that everyone uses should meet the needs of everyone approximately. Breaking a particular bit of functionality has resulted in this feedback, as it does whenever ~our lords and masters~ break something. Not everyone wants to salvage at max efficiency, some want to kill and choose their loot. Some want to organize things in stations. Some want to ... etc, etc. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I'm telling you that if your favorite style of gameplay was suddenly broken for no required reason, you'd understand my position. And if you look around, you'd see I'm hardly alone. A 65 page feedback thread for a minor patch revision says there is a problem. I'm glad they didn't break something that you use, but you'd be here howling just like me if they did.

Or you would just roll over and take it... who knows?
Bibosikus
Air
#122 - 2012-05-30 00:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bibosikus
Diamonica Norya wrote:
Btw, instead of wasting time and $$ pushing out weekly "fixes" so that your Unified Inventory can behave as close to the old inventory system before. You guys in CCP really have to just concentrate on bringing the old Inventory back.

The more you fix, the more you break, some noob nurse just stabbed me 5 bloody times trying to take blood sample from me in the hospital. You guys at CCP trying to fix the new Unified Inventory multiple times now just reflect the same image of @#$@ programmer/designers as that nurse.


You just don't get it do yo?

The new Inventory UI is a big deal under the hood. Whinge and moan as you might, it's a major step into consolidating assets including starbases.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2012-05-30 00:20:00 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
*whatever floats your boat in game is fine with me. Telling me that something I could do before, to maximize my play time for ME isn't needed is quite the opposite, hence my hostility. I actually had this problem with a good friend of mine while she was playing. She couldn't resist that blizzard style "Even the trash is worth SOMETHING" mentality.

Mmmm...I only said how it worked for me. I didn't say anything about how it affected you.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2012-05-30 00:21:30 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
Telling me that a particular use case defines the UI isn't the style of the game we play. Something that everyone uses should meet the needs of everyone approximately. Breaking a particular bit of functionality has resulted in this feedback, as it does whenever ~our lords and masters~ break something. Not everyone wants to salvage at max efficiency, some want to kill and choose their loot. Some want to organize things in stations. Some want to ... etc, etc. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I'm telling you that if your favorite style of gameplay was suddenly broken for no required reason, you'd understand my position. And if you look around, you'd see I'm hardly alone. A 65 page feedback thread for a minor patch revision says there is a problem. I'm glad they didn't break something that you use, but you'd be here howling just like me if they did.

Or you would just roll over and take it... who knows?

telling me that your way is the only way and that the game is broken because you can't do it your way, which is apparently the only way. is...blah...blah...blah...

So provide specific examples of what it is you are trying to do, so that the devs can then address them, so that I don't have to read your pank, pank on the forums!
Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#125 - 2012-05-30 00:21:48 UTC
iownuall123 wrote:
You know, you guys had the chance to say you didn't like the new Inventory system before it was placed on the live server. The new Inventory was on the test server for weeks before it hit live, and you could've taken the time and tried it out, and give feedback about why you hate it or like it, but no, you didn't want to put in the extra effort, just like you don't want to do a few extra mouse clicks to make up for what changed. Next time they put out a new update, and they are changing the way you play the game you love, don't just sit on your ass until after it comes out and complain on the forums about it, that doesn't do **** in the way of fixing the problem, actually try testing it and giving feedback. That helps a lot more than whining about it after the fact. Me, I actually tested it and liked it, so I did my part, what did you do?


There's a thread with tens of pages of people who tested and doesn't like it created as soon as the UI went live on the test servers.

Testing should be done thoroughly and intensively and taken feed backs from the testers, reiterate and only push out on live server when it is adequately fixed (Which we know it wasn't the case, feedbacks ignored, dev that doesn't play the game, it is only pushed out because CCP is releasing this feature as per "scheduled deadline" and not per "usability"

Not everyone has the time to go and play game like some people do, not to mention the test server requires people to put extra time which they may not have the luxury have. If CCP is paying players for "testing their own games" so they can compensate for their "lack of a QA division" then maybe, but oh wait! CCP don't have a QA department right?
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2012-05-30 00:23:03 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
*ahh, just saw the post before the above. Suspicion confirmed. If you think looting EVERYTHING is efficient, I have nothing more to say to you.

Apparently not. Shocked
L iriel
Arach-Tinilith
#127 - 2012-05-30 00:23:51 UTC
NIJofleyUK wrote:
Honestly...... CCP.

Who approved the NEW IMPROVED (screwed*) UI for inventory. Have you ever tried to move stuff to multiple ships. Try having 30 or so ships in a station without having a 90" high monitor, your gonna be scrolling forever trying to get anything moved. I believe there was nothing really wrong with the OLD UI. Again something rolled out without ever asking people if it's a good idea.

Why do we not have a community voting system for changes like this, set a week to test it on Duality and let ppl decide there. OR Give people the option to choose, and none of this, it's too hard to manage 2 seperate systems... the old one doesn't need updated..., it just works.



Another player told me it was tested on SISI...and alot of people there said it was buggy and they didn't like it.
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#128 - 2012-05-30 00:27:34 UTC
Wilma Lawson wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
Telling me that a particular use case defines the UI isn't the style of the game we play. Something that everyone uses should meet the needs of everyone approximately. Breaking a particular bit of functionality has resulted in this feedback, as it does whenever ~our lords and masters~ break something. Not everyone wants to salvage at max efficiency, some want to kill and choose their loot. Some want to organize things in stations. Some want to ... etc, etc. I'm not telling you that you are wrong, I'm telling you that if your favorite style of gameplay was suddenly broken for no required reason, you'd understand my position. And if you look around, you'd see I'm hardly alone. A 65 page feedback thread for a minor patch revision says there is a problem. I'm glad they didn't break something that you use, but you'd be here howling just like me if they did.

Or you would just roll over and take it... who knows?

telling me that your way is the only way and that the game is broken because you can't do it your way, which is apparently the only way. is...blah...blah...blah...

So provide specific examples of what it is you are trying to do, so that the devs can then address them, so that I don't have to read your pank, pank on the forums!


I'll spell it out for you. I want to drag and drop between windows. I don't want the windows to switch on me in the middle of the process, I don't want to have keys added because someone doesn't 'like' a right click menu, I don't want an existing window to stay on the screen when the location no longer exists, and I don't want pricing data and other useless data calls to slow down the process of opening the inventory.

These changes might be pretty, they might add a line item to someone's accomplishments, but functionality is my concern. If it doesn't work, it's broken. If it works poorly, it needs tweaking. If it works worse than before for all these vocal posters, someone should have left it alone.

What does the new inventory do for you that it didn't do before?
Bibosikus
Air
#129 - 2012-05-30 00:31:10 UTC
Diamonica Norya wrote:
iownuall123 wrote:
You know, you guys had the chance to say you didn't like the new Inventory system before it was placed on the live server. The new Inventory was on the test server for weeks before it hit live, and you could've taken the time and tried it out, and give feedback about why you hate it or like it, but no, you didn't want to put in the extra effort, just like you don't want to do a few extra mouse clicks to make up for what changed. Next time they put out a new update, and they are changing the way you play the game you love, don't just sit on your ass until after it comes out and complain on the forums about it, that doesn't do **** in the way of fixing the problem, actually try testing it and giving feedback. That helps a lot more than whining about it after the fact. Me, I actually tested it and liked it, so I did my part, what did you do?


There's a thread with tens of pages of people who tested and doesn't like it created as soon as the UI went live on the test servers.

Testing should be done thoroughly and intensively and taken feed backs from the testers, reiterate and only push out on live server when it is adequately fixed (Which we know it wasn't the case, feedbacks ignored, dev that doesn't play the game, it is only pushed out because CCP is releasing this feature as per "scheduled deadline" and not per "usability"

Not everyone has the time to go and play game like some people do, not to mention the test server requires people to put extra time which they may not have the luxury have. If CCP is paying players for "testing their own games" so they can compensate for their "lack of a QA division" then maybe, but oh wait! CCP don't have a QA department right?


What bull. The fact is that CCP has a test server, freely available to any paid-up member, with the latest patch and
CCP members online to listen in and absorb player's feedback. If you want to influence CCP's direction with constructive criticism over their ideas, then log on to SISI.

If you want to ***** about what they've believed are good ideas, then carry on being a forum troll.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#130 - 2012-05-30 00:36:41 UTC
Wilma Lawson wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
*ahh, just saw the post before the above. Suspicion confirmed. If you think looting EVERYTHING is efficient, I have nothing more to say to you.

Apparently not. Shocked


If we were the only two people here, sure. I think we're both grandstanding to a larger audience, which tends to happen online. You're arguing that you're right, when you already have the UI you want. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to make the game better for ALL use cases, not just someone in a Noctis.

Anyone that docks and undocks is negatively affected by this.

Anyone that sorts their inventory in any way is negatively affected by this.

And for what gain?
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#131 - 2012-05-30 00:38:14 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:
What does the new inventory do for you that it didn't do before?

Once I got used to it, I'm able to drop what I've sorted right into the leaves (bins) of the tree because the leaves highlight when i hover over them. This didn't happen when I hovered over my station containers (now leaves). So I know Im putting the right items in the correct station containers.

However, I don't have a POS, or a lot of Corp containers.

Do I use the the ISK estimate - no. Do I want it - I don't care as long as it's not causing a performance issue.

I have noticed that the performance in station is much slower than out in space when I open a wreck. At least opening a wreck is almost instantaneous for me, which it wasn't when the update was first released.

I can see how, if you have a lot of leaves on the tree that it would be problematic as you have to scroll up and down the pane to find the right container.

Originally, I was thinking that the Unified Inventory was going to be a separate view and not a replacement for the then current system. It didn't make sense to remove it. Having many ways to do things is a good thing.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#132 - 2012-05-30 00:41:24 UTC
A55 Burger wrote:


If we were the only two people here, sure. I think we're both grandstanding to a larger audience, which tends to happen online. You're arguing that you're right, when you already have the UI you want. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to make the game better for ALL use cases, not just someone in a Noctis.

Anyone that docks and undocks is negatively affected by this.

Anyone that sorts their inventory in any way is negatively affected by this.

And for what gain?

Perhaps, but the purpose of my post was that there are people who are able to play the game and that the UI is not all evil. Technically, any system change negatively impacts everyone because you have to get used to the change.

I'm not saying that my way is the right way. I'm saying that I can play the game with the current UI, but here's some things that are getting my way and can the devs do something to fix it.

Because, honestly, raging on the forum isn't going to help because they'll read the first few sentences of your post and skip the rest. They are looking for solutions, not rage.

Do they deserve the rage, yes. Is it helpful, no.

If it was helpful, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
NuroCorp
Serenity Browncoats LLP
#133 - 2012-05-30 00:42:53 UTC
The UI is looking better, even taking into account that I'm a bitter vet, but I digress... Lol

Is there any way to Pin a created stack of Frequently accessed Hangars to the neocom bar currently? Say for example All the hangars of a Corp hangar in one block. And if it does exist currently (hoping I haven't had a senior moment and overlooked it) save it so its there after exiting the client and re-logging back in?

I'm surrounded by Trolls. All this negative feedback means we'll just be getting new forums released before DUST goes F2P....

L iriel
Arach-Tinilith
#134 - 2012-05-30 00:47:27 UTC
Wilma Lawson wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
I get the feeling that I'm trying to convey something to people that hit "LOOT ALL" and call it good, because I cant fathom anyone dragging and dropping with this system and actually being able to tolerate it at all. Efficient means it's efficient at all things that it is needed for, not a niche thing.

*ahh, just saw the post before the above. Suspicion confirmed. If you think looting EVERYTHING is efficient, I have nothing more to say to you


Loot All is efficient for me. I'm partly an industrialist, so I make my own ammo and some of my own ships. Grabbing everything , sorting, and re-processing it at the station is more efficient for me - and it's safer. So it is more efficient.

I went back and re-read some of your previous posts, only one seemed to provide some insight into what you want - it was a good post and I agree with it - that wrecks should open in their own window and not include the tree. That was a good example of a requirement.


My problem with the wrecks, is that when I salvage behind my corp, I have 40+ wrecks in one area, and many of those have cargo. I use a Noctis, so I can salvage fairly quickly. Unfortunately, with all the extra clicks needed to open every single can, it takes just as much time to open and empty 20 cans as it does to tractor in and salvage 50 wrecks. With the old inventory system, if I dbl clicked on the the icon for the cans, it would open multiple cans in stacked windows, and after I looted the can (yes I take it all, it all reprocesses) the top window dissapears and the next window is available. Now, you can still click on all the cans, but after you empty one can, you have to go to the tree and click on the next can to open then loot it, then go back and click on another can.....way too many freaking clicks.Cry
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#135 - 2012-05-30 00:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
Wilma Lawson wrote:


Originally, I was thinking that the Unified Inventory was going to be a separate view and not a replacement for the then current system. It didn't make sense to remove it. Having many ways to do things is a good thing.


I agree with you there. However the default view forces treeview, and doesn't remember locations, so I and many others are forced into the treeview methodology. That would even be okay if the location remembered the last place it was for at a minimum, two separate windows, so I could minimize, and ignore it. I'd even be okay with the annoying focus changing of the mulitiple windows if they did so in a consistent fashion (i.e. wrecks always overwrite the wreck window, cans / cans, and so on). I'd even be okay with the pricing data slowing things down if it was, in fact, meaningful pricing data.

However it really seems to me that the priority in terms of this change was 1) Looks snazzy 2) New things! yet feedback was priority zero. Those two priorities are strictly for people that don't play Eve yet or currently, but the visual characteristics quickly become something not seen, and the interaction and usability part becomes priority one.

Wilma Lawson wrote:

Do they deserve the rage, yes. Is it helpful, no.

If it was helpful, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


This I disagree with. As I mentioned earlier, the only thing that gets their attention evidently is rage and pitchforks. Feedback from the test server doesn't work, constructive feedback just after the patch didn't work (I don't think you saw the thread where Soundwave told us what we wanted was "bad design"), but the lessons of Monoclegate tell us that this method, does in fact work. Until presented with a better alternative, and teaching them that yes, they do in fact have to listen to people, it is what it is.
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#136 - 2012-05-30 01:05:53 UTC
Quote:
Searching for names constructed entirely of hyphens will work without error.


What is this i don't even
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#137 - 2012-05-30 01:09:22 UTC
I love the part where everyone gets all forum warrior on this thread.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#138 - 2012-05-30 01:14:39 UTC
L iriel wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:
A55 Burger wrote:
I get the feeling that I'm trying to convey something to people that hit "LOOT ALL" and call it good, because I cant fathom anyone dragging and dropping with this system and actually being able to tolerate it at all. Efficient means it's efficient at all things that it is needed for, not a niche thing.

*ahh, just saw the post before the above. Suspicion confirmed. If you think looting EVERYTHING is efficient, I have nothing more to say to you


Loot All is efficient for me. I'm partly an industrialist, so I make my own ammo and some of my own ships. Grabbing everything , sorting, and re-processing it at the station is more efficient for me - and it's safer. So it is more efficient.

I went back and re-read some of your previous posts, only one seemed to provide some insight into what you want - it was a good post and I agree with it - that wrecks should open in their own window and not include the tree. That was a good example of a requirement.


My problem with the wrecks, is that when I salvage behind my corp, I have 40+ wrecks in one area, and many of those have cargo. I use a Noctis, so I can salvage fairly quickly. Unfortunately, with all the extra clicks needed to open every single can, it takes just as much time to open and empty 20 cans as it does to tractor in and salvage 50 wrecks. With the old inventory system, if I dbl clicked on the the icon for the cans, it would open multiple cans in stacked windows, and after I looted the can (yes I take it all, it all reprocesses) the top window dissapears and the next window is available. Now, you can still click on all the cans, but after you empty one can, you have to go to the tree and click on the next can to open then loot it, then go back and click on another can.....way too many freaking clicks.Cry

Ok, well I just went out and killed some things, pulled the wrecks in, salvaged them, and opened all the cans by double-clicking. The cans all opened up in one window.

I hit the Loot All button, looted the can, and the window closed;, leaving the other windows opened. I was able to hit the Loot All button.

So I was able to do what you wanted. Granted all the windows opened in the Unified Inventory, but it's still the same. It's very similar in terms of functionality as the old way. I do the salvaging for my corp as well.

The only real difference is that the Unified Inventory window stays open after looting all the cans.

I think this is new functionality from the last update. Unless I missed something.
Wilma Lawson
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-05-30 01:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Wilma Lawson
A55 Burger wrote:

I agree with you there. However the default view forces treeview, and doesn't remember locations, so I and many others are forced into the treeview methodology. That would even be okay if the location remembered the last place it was for at a minimum, two separate windows, so I could minimize, and ignore it. I'd even be okay with the annoying focus changing of the mulitiple windows if they did so in a consistent fashion (i.e. wrecks always overwrite the wreck window, cans / cans, and so on). I'd even be okay with the pricing data slowing things down if it was, in fact, meaningful pricing data.

However it really seems to me that the priority in terms of this change was 1) Looks snazzy 2) New things! yet feedback was priority zero. Those two priorities are strictly for people that don't play Eve yet or currently, but the visual characteristics quickly become something not seen, and the interaction and usability part becomes priority one.


I can agree with this.

A55 Burger wrote:
Wilma Lawson wrote:

Do they deserve the rage, yes. Is it helpful, no.

If it was helpful, we wouldn't be having this conversation.


This I disagree with. As I mentioned earlier, the only thing that gets their attention evidently is rage and pitchforks. Feedback from the test server doesn't work, constructive feedback just after the patch didn't work (I don't think you saw the thread where Soundwave told us what we wanted was "bad design"), but the lessons of Monoclegate tell us that this method, does in fact work. Until presented with a better alternative, and teaching them that yes, they do in fact have to listen to people, it is what it is.

We'll have to disagree here. I think raging at first is effective, but when they ask for feedback and no more raging; and all you do is rage; they will just filter it out and look for solutions to the problems and ignore the rage. I'm sure they aren't masochistic. :)

And, yes, they should have taken the feedback from SISI. That should have been done!
A55 Burger
Weiland Yutani Corporation
#140 - 2012-05-30 01:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: A55 Burger
Now try it in a frigate, or a destroyer, while the new account CCP was trying to win over to a long term subscriber trains to a Noctis. Try picking and choosing loot, as a newbie with limited cargo space would.

*bear in mind that a trial account can't even train the base skill for a Noctis, even if he or she was given the skillbook by some kind player

Newbie says "This is frustrating", and quits. We all lose.