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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A question for the fc's out there regarding fleet pvp.

Author
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#1 - 2012-04-28 15:23:10 UTC
Which fleet type do you prefer in terms of tank? Shield or Armor? What's your reasoning to pick one or the other and assume that the fleet has logi boats in it.

S H I T P O S T I N G

Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-04-28 15:39:06 UTC
Unless it's a Tengu blob or it's nano, armor fleets tend to be more common. It's partly because there are no shield BS that are as good as a Baddon, partly because the shield carriers are less popular, partly because armor ships are able to fit a better buffer. The utility mids that an armor fit gives are also very helpful.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#3 - 2012-04-28 16:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Shield, because most small gang fights these days are more skirmishy and less just sit their trading punches up close. Added to this it's much easier to roam in shield gangs as they typically align and get into warp faster than armor fit ships and you don't have to stop for guys to repair in stations if you have no logistics with you. Added bonus is those low slots allow you to fit more gank.

Some pie corps around low sec tend to still like to use armor gangs but that usually because they are more gate campy than typical roaming fleets but they tend to like to have more tank on their ships due to going GCC all the time and having to deal with gate gun + other ships shooting them. Added bonus for that is they get more mid slots for things like webs or sensor boosters.
Sjugar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-28 16:53:56 UTC
Whatever tool gets the job done.

If you have very high numbers I like alpha maelstroms, volleying everything.
If your opponent has alphamaels and numbers and you have less I prefere long range tier 3s.
If it's going to be a slug match I prefer drakes.
If it's like 100 vs 100 and the opponent has drakes I prefer abaddons.
If the opponent has abaddons I prefer armorhacs.
If the opponent outnumbers you 2:1 in battleships or drakes but it's less then 200vs100 I prefer tengus.

Small nano gangs I prefer to fly with vagabonds and cynabals.

Bombers when needed.

There is no "best" way of tanking. Shield tank, armor tank, no tank, all have their place. If you lock yourself into one style you're going to be predictable and eventually lose battles because of that. Be flexible and it will help your success.
Fleet Warpsujarento
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-04-28 19:26:32 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
Which fleet type do you prefer in terms of tank? Shield or Armor? What's your reasoning to pick one or the other and assume that the fleet has logi boats in it.

Exilon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-28 20:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Exilon
Sjugar wrote:
Whatever tool gets the job done.

If you have very high numbers I like alpha maelstroms, volleying everything.
If your opponent has alphamaels and numbers and you have less I prefere long range tier 3s.
If it's going to be a slug match I prefer drakes.
If it's like 100 vs 100 and the opponent has drakes I prefer abaddons.
If the opponent has abaddons I prefer armorhacs.
If the opponent outnumbers you 2:1 in battleships or drakes but it's less then 200vs100 I prefer tengus.

Small nano gangs I prefer to fly with vagabonds and cynabals.

Bombers when needed.

There is no "best" way of tanking. Shield tank, armor tank, no tank, all have their place. If you lock yourself into one style you're going to be predictable and eventually lose battles because of that. Be flexible and it will help your success.



^^ this.

There is no one-size fits all fleet composition. You can't make the decision about what to bring unless you have an idea of your own numbers, the enemy numbers and the enemy composition. Counter drakes with abaddons, counter abaddons with ahacs, counter ahacs with drakes... that kind of thing.

If you're on the offensive and someone else is likely to be forming up to counter *you* then it's also good to dedicate a secondary wing (if you have the numbers) to specifically counter their counter. Maels with drakes or BLOPS for blapping Tier-3's etc.
Gremund Austrene
Did he say Jump
Deepwater Hooligans
#7 - 2012-05-26 10:07:34 UTC
Having been around for a while to see 300v300 fights, I prefer Hell cat fleets.
For smaller guerilla tactics, there's a tie between AF gangs (especially with Keres/Kitsune support) and NanoHACS.
The AHAC Furball has it's pleasures, but I like the dynamic agility and versatility of the Nanohacs.

My favorite gang of all time though, for the hilarity of it, is a mix of Sensor Damp and Tracking Disruptor Rifters. The hilarity of getting mauled by a bunch of 3-4m ships just makes me happy inside.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-26 20:19:04 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
Which fleet type do you prefer in terms of tank? Shield or Armor? What's your reasoning to pick one or the other and assume that the fleet has logi boats in it.


Depends purely on the situation, but my personal preference is for shield.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#9 - 2012-05-28 18:26:45 UTC
Me personally..
I like Armor BS fleets with short range weaponry. These are generally great for gate camps and Pirating.

As an FC I don't like to have to fly and be evasive, and still call primaries, listen to intel, watch Logi, etc. It makes for longer fights and less mistakes in general. I hate FCing from a Logi or Ewar ship. Too much work.

My type of fleet can also be ripped apart by nano BC pilots... But you asked what we like and why.

I also like 'pots n pans' BC fleets for roaming. Drakes n Canes n Harbingers, etc. etc. Me calling primaries and just a bunch of good pilots doing what they do in a ship of their choice. These fleets are hella fun, and we have been in a ton of fights where we were outnumbered by the enemy, and killed them all.
Angry Onions
League of Angered Gentlemen
#10 - 2012-05-28 18:56:02 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Me personally..
I like Armor BS fleets with short range weaponry. These are generally great for gate camps and Pirating.

As an FC I don't like to have to fly and be evasive, and still call primaries, listen to intel, watch Logi, etc. It makes for longer fights and less mistakes in general. I hate FCing from a Logi or Ewar ship. Too much work.

My type of fleet can also be ripped apart by nano BC pilots... But you asked what we like and why.

I also like 'pots n pans' BC fleets for roaming. Drakes n Canes n Harbingers, etc. etc. Me calling primaries and just a bunch of good pilots doing what they do in a ship of their choice. These fleets are hella fun, and we have been in a ton of fights where we were outnumbered by the enemy, and killed them all.

This is probably one of the best replies to this so far. Ty for the insight =)

S H I T P O S T I N G

Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2012-05-29 01:42:06 UTC
Angry Onions wrote:
Which fleet type do you prefer in terms of tank? Shield or Armor?


I run with the weekend Bombers Bar fleets and our ships have virtually no tank … at least not in the standard shield / armor / structure sense. While speed and small sig size is an element of our survival the main ‘tank’ we utilise is a combination of surprise and alpha / DPS.

When 15 – 30 bombers suddenly materialise nearby, hot-dropped or uncloaked, there’s not much that can survive longer than a few seconds. If those bombers are also aligned while delivering their payloads (bombs or / and torps) they are out of there before anyone has time to lock and apply a point or alpha.

It’s tank Jim, but not as we know it.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.

Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2012-05-29 19:09:30 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
Whatever tool gets the job done.

If you have very high numbers I like alpha maelstroms, volleying everything.
If your opponent has alphamaels and numbers and you have less I prefere long range tier 3s.
If it's going to be a slug match I prefer drakes.
If it's like 100 vs 100 and the opponent has drakes I prefer abaddons.
If the opponent has abaddons I prefer armorhacs.
If the opponent outnumbers you 2:1 in battleships or drakes but it's less then 200vs100 I prefer tengus.

Small nano gangs I prefer to fly with vagabonds and cynabals.

Bombers when needed.

There is no "best" way of tanking. Shield tank, armor tank, no tank, all have their place. If you lock yourself into one style you're going to be predictable and eventually lose battles because of that. Be flexible and it will help your success.



This post covers how different doctrines tend to fare assuming competent FCs on both sides of the field. Given the post the OP liked, though, I'll go more in depth and give an opinion:

RavenPaine wrote:
Me personally..
I like Armor BS fleets with short range weaponry. These are generally great for gate camps and Pirating.

As an FC I don't like to have to fly and be evasive, and still call primaries, listen to intel, watch Logi, etc. It makes for longer fights and less mistakes in general. I hate FCing from a Logi or Ewar ship. Too much work.

My type of fleet can also be ripped apart by nano BC pilots... But you asked what we like and why.

I also like 'pots n pans' BC fleets for roaming. Drakes n Canes n Harbingers, etc. etc. Me calling primaries and just a bunch of good pilots doing what they do in a ship of their choice. These fleets are hella fun, and we have been in a ton of fights where we were outnumbered by the enemy, and killed them all.


I completely agree that FCing from EWAR or logistics is a bad idea, as you're likely not anchored with the main fleet, and you likely won't be locking primaries. Logistics (which I mostly fly in larger fleets) compounds this problem, as having a number of likely targets pre-locked is critical, and targeting hostiles but potentially fat fingering a primary is just asking for trouble.

That said, I tend to prefer shield fleets - their mobility is nice in smaller roaming gangs and for battlefields with a number of warp bounces to try to find optimals, you can cram a shield buffer onto most nearly unranked snipers and utility ships to make even a few logi have something to work with, and a t2 shield tank is significantly easier for newer players to train into, with the worst timesink being Tactical Shield Manipulation IV.

I'm actually not a huge fan of complete kitchen sink fleets. In very small gangs, this sort of setup is great, as you're mostly looking to the FC for a call whether to fight or get out, but in larger fleets having a mixed doctrine makes the fleet unable to do any one thing well.