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A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences
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Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#421 - 2012-05-29 15:46:05 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You are investing time into something you don't really understand, Mr. Successful Real-Life Businessman Married With Children.

You see, this is a video game that focuses on conflict, scamming, violence, murder, and sociopathy. This is not a family-friendly pastime created for the enjoyment and benefit of working family men to unwind after a hard day of shaking hands and having power lunches.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#422 - 2012-05-29 15:46:29 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jeniam Retriat wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
You can alpha a 1bil tengu in a tornado and kill most transports in a destroyer. Like everything if you fit no defences and people can profitfrom your death they will go for it.


Yeah, but even if you fit defences on a Hulk or a Mack people can still profit from killing you. It's more effort, but it doesn't result in negative ISK unless the loot gods hate you.


No they cant. It take 3-4 destroyers to kill a a well tanked mac and anything up to 10 to kill a supertank hulk. It is not possible to make a profit from suicide ganking that kind of ship.


Only once in my life I have seen 3 destroyers fail to kill any Mack. For failfit ones 2 are plenty.
10 x 2.5M ships to kill a supertank Hulk will net 1+ intact salvage + 10 x their own wrecks + half Hulk mods. The final balance is still positive or about zero.

Not bad, 10 catalysts.

Blobbing is coming to highsec, it seems.


Well they do use 10+ ships to kill freighters since a long while so it's not a big change.

The only thing that really worries me about killing hi sec miners is that RMT botters today are VERY easily and quickly spotted (expecially at ice), easily killed, easily reported.

If you kill too many hi sec miners, however, the RMT botters will move to 0.0 renter space, where nobody will report them and much less kill them any more.
I find this a very bad thing.

I have yet to see a 0.0 bot-a-geddon as well.

Imagine if all those fresh forces would be devoted to kill 20-70 bots per renter system a day. I can sweet dream, eh?

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#423 - 2012-05-29 15:47:19 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Only once in my life I have seen 3 destroyers fail to kill any Mack. For failfit ones 2 are plenty.
10 x 2.5M ships to kill a supertank Hulk will net 1+ intact salvage + 10 x their own wrecks + half Hulk mods. The final balance is still positive or about zero.


okay, this is a problem how?


Not a problem, just a clarification.

Clarifications are a problem how?

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Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#424 - 2012-05-29 15:47:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If you kill too many hi sec miners, however, the RMT botters will move to 0.0 renter space, where nobody will report them and much less kill them any more.


cloak an alt in their system and voila

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#425 - 2012-05-29 15:50:17 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If you kill too many hi sec miners, however, the RMT botters will move to 0.0 renter space, where nobody will report them and much less kill them any more.


cloak an alt in their system and voila


Well I only have 1 jump clone to 0.0, you guys are thousands... Can't you decide to finally ruin THEIR (the renters RMTers) game?

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Francisco Bizzaro
#426 - 2012-05-29 15:54:26 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
In fact you can easily go back and find pre-Hulkageddon ganks and even other initiatives (see Bat Country).
You will NOT find Bat "Tengu" Country or other things, all and only against miners.

So there's a kickstart factor that all the other factors being equal, still pushes gankers to go after one target and not the other, even if both are failfit, both share the same Concord mechanics, both are not exactly awake at the keyboard and so on.

I found one easy factor: miners are easily found while all the others need to be scanned (unless they autopilot the pinata thru Uedama). I am sure there are others.

Clearly this is true - Tengus operate in deadspace patches which need to be scanned down. Since gankers are at least as lazy as miners for the most part, they won't crack out the probes until long after the last hulk has been cleared from the belts. But if hulks operated in deadspace, they would probably be less attractive than the corresponding tengu, and less likely to be ganked (except for the fact that the tengu pilot is probably actually at the keyboard, so a harder target for that reason alone).

Note, though, that deadspace areas with asteroids are also available to miners, via missions and grav sites. This is yet another excellent and obvious way to avoid trouble which has nothing to do with the alleged weaknesses of the hulk.
Fred Lodenstane
Lizard Ltd
#427 - 2012-05-29 15:55:38 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If you kill too many hi sec miners, however, the RMT botters will move to 0.0 renter space, where nobody will report them and much less kill them any more.


cloak an alt in their system and voila


Well I only have 1 jump clone to 0.0, you guys are thousands... Can't you decide to finally ruin THEIR (the renters RMTers) game?



We do, but they don't whine on these forums like highsec miners.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#428 - 2012-05-29 16:07:26 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Since gankers are at least as lazy as miners for the most part, they won't crack out the probes until long after the last hulk has been cleared from the belts.


The problem with suicide ganking Tengus in deadspace pockets is that unless they're absolutely dumb, they orbit an object in the site while permarunning an AB. 1400s have atrocious tracking, so warping in Tornadoes wouldn't work. Miners are easier targets because they make themselves easy targets.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#429 - 2012-05-29 16:29:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


No, Hulkageddon is a byproduct of the factor, not the cause.

In fact you can easily go back and find pre-Hulkageddon ganks and even other initiatives (see Bat Country).
You will NOT find Bat "Tengu" Country or other things, all and only against miners.

So there's a kickstart factor that all the other factors being equal, still pushes gankers to go after one target and not the other, even if both are failfit, both share the same Concord mechanics, both are not exactly awake at the keyboard and so on.

I found one easy factor: miners are easily found while all the others need to be scanned (unless they autopilot the pinata thru Uedama). I am sure there are others.


Hi Bat Country here. Killing droves of tengu doesn't mess with the ice market. Thats why we have not bothered to kill them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#430 - 2012-05-29 16:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Well tbh you can find systems in The Forge with up to 73 miners kills in 24h, how many L4 Tengus and CNR kills do you get in the most busy L4 system? I bet less than 73.


Show me the droves of untanked CNR and tengu. I bet its less than 73.
Francisco Bizzaro
#431 - 2012-05-29 16:45:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


Well tbh you can find systems in The Forge with up to 73 miners kills in 24h, how many L4 Tengus and CNR kills do you get in the most busy L4 system? I bet less than 73.


Show me the droves of untanked CNR and tengu. I bet its less than 73.

Anyhow, what was miner #73 doing not to notice that 72 of his buddies went missing that day?

Yeah, it must be the hulk's tank that is the problem.
Avid Bumhumper
Beekeepers Anonymous
#432 - 2012-05-29 16:55:16 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You are investing time into something you don't really understand, Mr. Successful Real-Life Businessman Married With Children.

You see, this is a video game that focuses on conflict, scamming, violence, murder, and sociopathy. This is a place where people with real life issues act out the way they would like to in real life, but can't due to pesky laws and such.


Fixed that for you....

My Tinfoil hat has been sugically implanted, so no,it is not for sale.....
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#433 - 2012-05-29 17:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Avid Bumhumper wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You are investing time into something you don't really understand, Mr. Successful Real-Life Businessman Married With Children.

You see, this is a video game that focuses on conflict, scamming, violence, murder, and sociopathy. This is a place where people with real life issues act out the way they would like to in real life, but can't due to pesky laws and such.


Fixed that for you....


Since when is shooting someone in a game that specifically allows it indicative of "real life issues"?

Miners are strip mining the natural resources of the universe with no thought to conservation... is that indicative of "real life issues"?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#434 - 2012-05-29 17:10:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaaeliaa
Ranger 1 wrote:
Avid Bumhumper wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
You are investing time into something you don't really understand, Mr. Successful Real-Life Businessman Married With Children.

You see, this is a video game that focuses on conflict, scamming, violence, murder, and sociopathy. This is a place where people with real life issues act out the way they would like to in real life, but can't due to pesky laws and such.


Fixed that for you....


Since when is shooting someone in a game that specifically allows it indicative of "real life issues"?

Miners are strip mining the natural resources of the universe with no thought to conservation... is that indicative of "real life issues"?


Because deliberately and gleefully ruining the game experience of other people for fun and profit, no matter how stupid those people may be, falls under the clinical definition of psychopathy.

From a dictionary: "Psychopathy is a personality disorder characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for the feelings of others and often the rules of society. Psychopaths have a lack of empathy and remorse, and have very shallow emotions. They are generally regarded as callous, selfish, dishonest, arrogant, aggressive, impulsive, irresponsible, and hedonistic."

Your comparison is disingenuous. There are no players controlling the asteroids.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#435 - 2012-05-29 17:11:04 UTC
Fred Lodenstane wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
If you kill too many hi sec miners, however, the RMT botters will move to 0.0 renter space, where nobody will report them and much less kill them any more.


cloak an alt in their system and voila


Well I only have 1 jump clone to 0.0, you guys are thousands... Can't you decide to finally ruin THEIR (the renters RMTers) game?



We do, but they don't whine on these forums like highsec miners.


Do you reply the RMTers when they whine on their respective bots forum then?



Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

Note, though, that deadspace areas with asteroids are also available to miners, via missions and grav sites. This is yet another excellent and obvious way to avoid trouble which has nothing to do with the alleged weaknesses of the hulk.


Indeed and if you look back I mentioned grav sites etc. The current implementation is not properly viable as replacement:

1) Missions are heavily biased on Trit, which alone is not enough for the overall game production. There are pyroxeres and even omber but it's a rare event (I have run lots of L3 and L4).

2) Grav sites are hard-ish to scan (so the average miner would have difficulty finding them since their skills are generally poor all around) and are very few compared to the volume needed to feed EvE.

Therefore CCP should introduce something in between the already existing mining missions (that send you to fake useless roids) and COSMOS (some missions send you to scan a decently easy signature).

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#436 - 2012-05-29 17:13:54 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Since gankers are at least as lazy as miners for the most part, they won't crack out the probes until long after the last hulk has been cleared from the belts.


The problem with suicide ganking Tengus in deadspace pockets is that unless they're absolutely dumb, they orbit an object in the site while permarunning an AB. 1400s have atrocious tracking, so warping in Tornadoes wouldn't work. Miners are easier targets because they make themselves easy targets.


Well I tested arties on Hulks orbiting a can and they get hit, so that trick only works against some very low skilled alts using 'nados.

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Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#437 - 2012-05-29 17:14:21 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Since gankers are at least as lazy as miners for the most part, they won't crack out the probes until long after the last hulk has been cleared from the belts.


The problem with suicide ganking Tengus in deadspace pockets is that unless they're absolutely dumb, they orbit an object in the site while permarunning an AB. 1400s have atrocious tracking, so warping in Tornadoes wouldn't work. Miners are easier targets because they make themselves easy targets.



It's not like if Tengus travel through gates or dock/undock at stations, it's well known they have a special Asgard teleport button.

brb
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#438 - 2012-05-29 17:14:32 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Because deliberately and gleefully ruining the game experience of other people for fun and profit, no matter how stupid those people may be, falls under the clinical definition of psychopathy.


The only mentally-unbalanced people are those who cannot distinguish a game from reality, and experience visceral suffering from the loss of space pixels.
Haulie Berry
#439 - 2012-05-29 17:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Kaaeliaa wrote:

Because deliberately and gleefully ruining the game experience of other people for fun and profit, no matter how stupid those people may be, falls under the clinical definition of psychopathy.


Nothing that happens to you in the game should ruin your game experience, as everything that happens in the game is a *part* of the game experience.

It should no more ruin your game experience than being picked off by an enemy sniper in an FPS game, being rocked by a rush strategy in an RTS game, or losing your queen in a game of chess should "ruin" your experience.

If building hotels on Park Place and Boardwalk caused another player to throw a tantrum, would I be a "psychopath" for deliberately and gleefully ruining their gameplay experience? Roll

Most of us are just playing a game. The game allows us to perform a wide variety of actions. It is not the player's fault if some of those actions cause you emotional distress.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#440 - 2012-05-29 17:17:02 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Nothing that happens to you in the game should ruin your game experience, as everything that happens in the game is a *part* of the game experience.

It should no more ruin your game experience than being picked off by an enemy sniper in an FPS game, being rocked by a rush strategy in an RTS game, or losing your queen in a game of chess should "ruin" your experience.


Precisely. Now, if something were to happen outside of the rules of the game that we all agree to when we log in, that is a completely different story.