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PVP intense or Virtual Universe?

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THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#21 - 2012-05-29 16:49:20 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.



So what's the point of mining if they don't make isk off of that?

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#22 - 2012-05-29 16:52:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata Saken
THE L0CK wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.



So what's the point of mining if they don't make isk off of that?



I'm assuming the ones making isk enough to replace their losses and remain profitable aren't running to the forums to whine about it. I could be horribly, horribly wrong.

EDIT: or rage quitting.

So close...
Oddball Six
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-05-29 16:58:51 UTC
Baneken wrote:
Hulk would be fine if could actually fit something that resembles a tank in it such as X-large/large shield extender instead of small which doesn't make it immune but makes it more comfortable to use in null as far as NPC's are concerned.

A hulk can be tanked but then it's yield drops so low that you might as well mine with mining cruiser which also happens to tank better while packing a punch (especially vexor).
So yeah for a +200mil ship a hulk is quite fragile for it's purpose.


I think this is probably one of the better suggestions that came out in my thread over the weekend about hulkageddon and the challenges it portends to casual players.

IF CCP comes back on the side of ganks in high sec being intended, THEN they need to be more clear about the philosophy for how that is supposed to be balanced for the players.

This is one possible way.
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#24 - 2012-05-29 16:58:53 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.


For CCP PLEX is a liability on their books, the ONLY time PLEX is a stand alone profit is when it is used on AUR.



I disagree, I think without PLEX/GTC CCP would have closed their doors a long time ago.


Disagree?

LOL, it is accounting, go study up on it if you don't understand the basic principles.

It is not a matter of opinion, that is how accounting works, PLEX is a product that was paid for but not delivered, it is a liability.




Not to point out the obvious, but PLEX cannot buy ships... ISK does.

Therefore, Hulkageddon encourages the transfer of PLEX to ISK, which removes it from their liability into profit.
Just because players buy PLEX does not mean they convert the PLEX to ISK quickly. However, an event that costs players a lot and require the immediate conversion may just motivate CCP to allow it to continue indefinitely. After all, the players are driving the content, right?
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#25 - 2012-05-29 16:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: THE L0CK
Meh, I think most of them can cover the loss of one ship within a couple of days, and think of the amount of time they have had to mine before being ganked. If they can't, well they are in the wrong business then. But yeah, that statement had me confused also, was thinking to myself that a portion of the proceeds of the wreck were RMT'd or something and donated to CCP to look the other way Concord style.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#26 - 2012-05-29 17:08:39 UTC
AFK Hauler wrote:

Not to point out the obvious, but PLEX cannot buy ships... ISK does.

Therefore, Hulkageddon encourages the transfer of PLEX to ISK, which removes it from their liability into profit.
Just because players buy PLEX does not mean they convert the PLEX to ISK quickly. However, an event that costs players a lot and require the immediate conversion may just motivate CCP to allow it to continue indefinitely. After all, the players are driving the content, right?


On top of any of that, I thought the only way PLEX winds up in game is if you go to CCP or a third party and actually purchase it with real money. Therefore, regardless of what players do with the ingame item, CCP has already been paid, and there is no liability.

THE L0CK wrote:
Meh, I think most of them can cover the loss of one ship within a couple of days, and think of the amount of time they have had to mine before being ganked. If they can't, well they are in the wrong business then. But yeah, that statement had me confused also, was thinking to myself that a portion of the proceeds of the wreck were RMT'd or something and donated to CCP to look the other way Concord style.


Now you've confused me. Lol

So close...
Owena Owoked
Dedicated Individuals Committed to Killing
#27 - 2012-05-29 17:09:48 UTC
Jafit wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk would require like 2-3 Tornados to alpha it. Untanked I think it takes 2 Catalysts if I recall. 2 not 1 if I recall gankers do have to work together.

A solo gank catalyst can put out 700 DPS. One will do just fine for an untanked hulk. And I would like to see the fitting of this hulk that takes 2-3 gank tornados to alpha it. That would be billions of ISK worth of fittings. The Hulks tank is like a wet paper bag. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it. For a ship that is supposed to be a miner in low and null sec it is pathetically weak.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#28 - 2012-05-29 17:17:51 UTC
Quote:



Not to point out the obvious, but PLEX cannot buy ships... ISK does.

Therefore, Hulkageddon encourages the transfer of PLEX to ISK, which removes it from their liability into profit.
Just because players buy PLEX does not mean they convert the PLEX to ISK quickly. However, an event that costs players a lot and require the immediate conversion may just motivate CCP to allow it to continue indefinitely. After all, the players are driving the content, right?



The PLEX is not removed from the liability column just because it was transfered from one customer to another. It is still a liability, CCP still OWES a customer 30 days time. It is an unpaid debt, an IOU, a liability on the books.

The PLEX is a liablity until someone uses it to get another 30 days. At that point it becomes a wash because the customer would have had to use a sub had he not used a PLEX.

Since PLEX replace subs, they are a break even proposition, except the minor price difference.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#29 - 2012-05-29 17:20:44 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
AFK Hauler wrote:

Not to point out the obvious, but PLEX cannot buy ships... ISK does.

Therefore, Hulkageddon encourages the transfer of PLEX to ISK, which removes it from their liability into profit.
Just because players buy PLEX does not mean they convert the PLEX to ISK quickly. However, an event that costs players a lot and require the immediate conversion may just motivate CCP to allow it to continue indefinitely. After all, the players are driving the content, right?


On top of any of that, I thought the only way PLEX winds up in game is if you go to CCP or a third party and actually purchase it with real money. Therefore, regardless of what players do with the ingame item, CCP has already been paid, and there is no liability.



"CCP has already been paid"

But the PLEX has not been used, so they owe someone 30 days, that is why it is a liability, because it is a debt for CCP untill it is used.

A mind is like a parachute, useless if it won't open.

I'm an American, English is my second language...
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#30 - 2012-05-29 17:25:12 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
AFK Hauler wrote:

Not to point out the obvious, but PLEX cannot buy ships... ISK does.

Therefore, Hulkageddon encourages the transfer of PLEX to ISK, which removes it from their liability into profit.
Just because players buy PLEX does not mean they convert the PLEX to ISK quickly. However, an event that costs players a lot and require the immediate conversion may just motivate CCP to allow it to continue indefinitely. After all, the players are driving the content, right?


On top of any of that, I thought the only way PLEX winds up in game is if you go to CCP or a third party and actually purchase it with real money. Therefore, regardless of what players do with the ingame item, CCP has already been paid, and there is no liability.



"CCP has already been paid"

But the PLEX has not been used, so they owe someone 30 days, that is why it is a liability, because it is a debt for CCP untill it is used.

A mind is like a parachute, useless if it won't open.


Does CCP still owe somebody something if the plex is destroyed?

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#31 - 2012-05-29 17:26:24 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:


"CCP has already been paid"

But the PLEX has not been used, so they owe someone 30 days, that is why it is a liability, because it is a debt for CCP untill it is used.

A mind is like a parachute, useless if it won't open.


Its not CCP's debt, its the player who bought it. They gave the customer the product they paid for and received money for it. When it gets used by the customer seems quite irrelevant at this point. This goes for any game time card from anyone, if I go out and buy one from the store, the store and the game developer have now been paid. IF I never use that card to play the game doesn't matter, at all.

So close...
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#32 - 2012-05-29 17:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.


For CCP PLEX is a liability on their books, the ONLY time PLEX is a stand alone profit is when it is used on AUR.



I disagree, I think without PLEX/GTC CCP would have closed their doors a long time ago.


Disagree?

LOL, it is accounting, go study up on it if you don't understand the basic principles.

It is not a matter of opinion, that is how accounting works, PLEX is a product that was paid for but not delivered, it is a liability.



I dont think you understand how plex works. As I understand it - plex actually costs more ($19.95) then a monthly subscription ($14.95). People buy it because they want to transmute it into isk. Thus, for every plex bought, ccp makes more money then if a subscription had been purchased for that same monthly period. Also there is a chance that the plex can be destroyed before use -- meaning that ccp is paid for something which it does not have to deliver. Thus, all in all - CCP clearly comes out ahead using plex. In short someone who claims to understand accounting would know that you have to look at both sides of the balance sheet to get the full picture.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#33 - 2012-05-29 17:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
How to not be ganked while mining:

Learn to live in w-space and mine there. Hammer that d-scan button.

Join a nullsec alliance and mine there. Watch local.

Not willing to do that? Mine in highsec in something that isn't paper-thin and vulnerable to anyone who can muster five digits worth of damage before Concord shows up. Or mine in a T1 barge so that when you DO get ganked you aren't losing hundreds of million.

There are solutions to your problem. You just refuse to see them because they aren't what you WANT.

edit: these "omg my hulk got ganked" threads are getting tedious. Time to piece together a blog post explaining why their logic is so terrible. Saves on the writing when I can just link it over and over :)

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#34 - 2012-05-29 17:39:36 UTC
Calfis wrote:
Ker Rednif wrote:
Truth has always been the majority of the time this game is played solo. It doesn't matter how much they promote it otherwise.


Just because you don't play the game as intended does not mean said game should be made to accommodate your preferred style of play over the (PvP/group) style that the game was originally intended. Learn to adapt, stop being a victim, it is a virtual world, like in the real world sometimes you get mugged, deal with it.


This is what always amuses me: on one side they claim EvE is a sandbox when it suits their argument, on the other you either play AS INTENDED or DIE.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#35 - 2012-05-29 17:42:07 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.


For CCP PLEX is a liability on their books, the ONLY time PLEX is a stand alone profit is when it is used on AUR.



I disagree, I think without PLEX/GTC CCP would have closed their doors a long time ago.


Disagree?

LOL, it is accounting, go study up on it if you don't understand the basic principles.

It is not a matter of opinion, that is how accounting works, PLEX is a product that was paid for but not delivered, it is a liability.



It's a liability CCP does not need to ever honor though.

It's like one of those pretend-bonds in Market Discussion forum: the guy is meant to give back the money plus interest but if he decides not to, what will you do? Send an hate mail? That's it.

I am almost sure there's some EULA bit that insures CCP is free to decide to pull the plug any day they want and nobody could say anything about it.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-05-29 17:48:11 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Ker Rednif wrote:
That argument is old and long since wore out, since it avoids the issue by imposing a requirement on the miner that the ganker doesn't have.


The ganker will lose his ship. That is an imbalance we can not have. I therefore demand that every so often when a mining laser is activated a massive explosion is taking out any mining ship on grid.

For some strange reason miners seam to believe that they should be safe from losing ships. How is that fair?

Your whole chain of arguments is completely pointless because you neglect that fact that production becomes meaningless if there is no consumption. PvP with actual losses are a necessity in EVE because it keeps the economy in balance. Your statements are further just a brainfart because any properly tanked hulk will tank any catalyst. If you don't know how to fit your ship you are supposed to lose it.




Hulkagedon is fine as is. Blowing up mining ships is good. That said, your example doesnt make since. You are committing a crime, the miner is not. There is no imbalance either way, but there is especially no imbalance on the part of the criminal. You do the crime, you do the time. To clarify, the only reward a ganker should receive are:

Tears
Dropped Loot mods
Killboards

That's it. That's the list.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#37 - 2012-05-29 18:13:11 UTC
Ker Rednif wrote:
Obviously CCP makes real money off of Hulkageddon, by miners replacing losses, so it is likely to be around a long time. There's no motivation for CCP to do otherwise. However, there are some obvious problems with Hulkageddon with regards to gaming philosophy, and game maturation.

A hulk is supposed to be a low sec mining ship, but it can be solo ganked by a destroyer in high sec. Anyone see the imbalance there? That's one sided gaming philosophy that emphasizes PVP over all other activity. In other words the solo ganker can expect to gank solo with little cost or penalty, yet the solo miner cannot expect to mine solo.

Please no,... "Don't Mine Solo, Eve is a team game," comments. That argument is old and long since wore out, since it avoids the issue by imposing a requirement on the miner that the ganker doesn't have.

I think the real issue in EVE now is (actually has been for awhile) the game itself transitioned from a PVP intensive game to a game that offers more than just PVP. This happened through osmosis. CCP kept offering other forms of game play in order to create PVP targets, i.e.,.. mining, missioning, exploration, wormholes, PI, etc. Once the other forms of gaming are introduced they have to be cared for by CCP to keep them relevant and creating targets for PVPers. I believe what happened to EVE since I started playing many years ago, is the game matured but CCP's approach to the game didn't.

CCP, if they wake up to what happened,... has the makings of probably the best "virtual universe" game in existence. They won't have to just advertise it as such, it will be that. EVE is more than just a PVP game now. But, they continue to emphasize PVP and team play. That emphasis causes imbalance to other aspects of the game. A tangent to this point is the emphasis on team play in EVE. Truth has always been the majority of the time this game is played solo. It doesn't matter how much they promote it otherwise. If you don't believe me on this,... add up your solo play and compare it to your team play. Team play here is defined as what you are actually doing as a group, and not just being logged on and in the same chat channel together.
No MMO would survive if it didn't allow for solo play,... after all who wants to sit around waiting for their friendlies to log on and hope while doing so that they will want to do something you want to do, when they do log on.

EVE has the potential to become more than what it is,.... probably one of the most interesting actual, (as opposed to just advertised as), virtual reality games in existence but it means a new approach to its gaming philosophy to make that transition. If CCP doesn't do it,.... some other individual, group, or company will,.... and will advance the gaming industry to a new level.



You can mine solo all you want -- I frequently can mine in empire. I pop out three or 4 cans and then come and get them with an orca. its not as efficient as doing it in a group - but I would rather mine solo. The simple secret to doing it safely is to just pick a low traffic system and tank your hulk. Its not a guarantee that you will not be ganked - but it reduces the possibility to such a small figure as to make it insignificant - and if you get ganked, it will likely be a causal gank and because you tanked your hulk you will survive it and lol at the tears from the ganker.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Khadann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-29 18:28:18 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Ker Rednif wrote:
That argument is old and long since wore out, since it avoids the issue by imposing a requirement on the miner that the ganker doesn't have.


The ganker will lose his ship. That is an imbalance we can not have. I therefore demand that every so often when a mining laser is activated a massive explosion is taking out any mining ship on grid.

For some strange reason miners seam to believe that they should be safe from losing ships. How is that fair?

Your whole chain of arguments is completely pointless because you neglect that fact that production becomes meaningless if there is no consumption. PvP with actual losses are a necessity in EVE because it keeps the economy in balance. Your statements are further just a brainfart because any properly tanked hulk will tank any catalyst. If you don't know how to fit your ship you are supposed to lose it.



I don't think the initial goal of EVE PVP was to make pvpers kill industrialists.
People tend to forget that PVP is mainly about fighter VS fighter. Not that retarted gank gameplay some players are so proud of.

Also, Jita, the system with the more kills! Somehting's wrong right?
Should you not be in 0.5-0.0, doing piew piew against frigates and batlecruisers, instead of targeting esay preys?
(you, meaning gankers in general, not you particulary Ker)
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#39 - 2012-05-29 18:37:43 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Oraac Ensor wrote:
I don't see how CCP can make real money from Hulkageddon.

More likely to lose money if players rage-quit. (Not a rational response, but I'm sure some will do it).


Balanced by the players who will open their wallets and buy a plex to replace their losses. The trick is to retain players willing to spend more than 15$ a month on a game.


For CCP PLEX is a liability on their books, the ONLY time PLEX is a stand alone profit is when it is used on AUR.



Completely incorrect.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Baldrik DeLeNoir
Beltane Legion
#40 - 2012-05-29 18:41:44 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
[quote]



Since PLEX replace subs, they are a break even proposition, except the minor price difference.


This comment really does give you a good example of why accountants don't make good business men.

I'll give you a clue, the bit about minor price difference, MINOR? 6 months game time £50, six plex package £90.

Considering your arragant attitude in other posts, I'll leave you to try and get you mind to act laterally rather than explain the bloody obvious to you.
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