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solo pvp, vindicaor or machariel
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axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#21 - 2012-05-22 20:18:02 UTC
Try to get a hold in game with FIREBOLT145, by far the greatest MACHARIAL WARBOAT PILOT. This kind fellow might grace you with some of his space knowledge on the subject.
eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-05-23 19:44:41 UTC
thanks i will.
Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-05-23 20:23:05 UTC
The Mach is able to field a very effective active-armor and active-shield setup. The vind is somewhat limited to close range engagements (much more risky). Overall, the difference is in damage depending on each ships setup. The shield-mach can do around 1300dps. Most close range vind setups focus alot more on defense (900 - 1000dps). There by making the point of flying the ship mute. other than the utility factor of 90% stasis webifier.

If you're thinking about flying the vind. Dont! Buy a Megathron Navy Issue and fly that instead. You lose 90% for a tracking bonus, more drones and large neut. Most everything else is the same. You also lose less when it explodes. Easily being able to replace it.

Megathron Navy Issue
True Sansha Large Armor Repairer
True Sansha Large Armor Repairer
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
100MN MicroWarpdrive II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Electron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I


Berserker II x5
Warrior II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#24 - 2012-05-23 20:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
But you don't just lose the 90% vs 60% web, you lose having a web completely, you're just a BS with a scram then w.r.t. tackle. And the Vindi still has the tracking bonus.

More accurately I'd say it's about half the price for a good tank on a NMega, but 1/3 less dps. Going the other way that's 50% more dps from a Vindi (800dps vs 1200dps when active tanked), before factoring in how a 90% web and not always having the enemy's mwd off helps with applying dps from guns & drones.
eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-05-23 23:52:12 UTC
i dont see how you think a machariel (autocannons) can do more dps than a vindicator (blasters) i can see that the range is more forgiving on the mach and it looks like im going to buy a megathron or navy mega and work on all of my support skills. then once i have all the skills that i need, i will get the mach. so its gonna be a long time but i appreciate the help. i have a better understanding of the ships purposes now.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#26 - 2012-05-25 07:52:32 UTC
eien mirai wrote:
i dont see how you think a machariel (autocannons) can do more dps than a vindicator (blasters) i can see that the range is more forgiving on the mach and it looks like im going to buy a megathron or navy mega and work on all of my support skills. then once i have all the skills that i need, i will get the mach. so its gonna be a long time but i appreciate the help. i have a better understanding of the ships purposes now.


If you are going the Mac route you might try practising with the Nano Tempest fit I suggested earlier, they fly essentially the same whereas the Mach and Mega/Navy Mega fly completely differently.
eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-05-27 18:54:44 UTC
k
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#28 - 2012-05-27 21:53:44 UTC
eien mirai wrote:
i do understand the difference in how they are used, i was asking which one people preferred for solo pvp and why

This contradicts itself. If you know the difference in how they are used, then this would seemingly include solo?
Quote:
i dont see how you think a machariel (autocannons) can do more dps than a vindicator (blasters)

In your chosen usage case, the Mach will APPLY more damage than a Vindicator. Stop looking at EFT.

Outside of sitting in docking range of a station in highsec, after wardeccing a carebear corp, a Vindy will see little "solo" use. Machs can pick their engagements much more easily and you're much less prone to losing them.

You'll probably also lose your first 2 or 3 without killing much in them, so factor that into your plans.

Solo faction BS PVP is the playground of the insanely rich, or the aforementioned station huggers.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Garven Dreis
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-28 05:31:20 UTC
We have war targets who only seem to fly Faction BS and Cruisers and only engage in ~elite pvp~. Most people I know who fly that way have hordes of remote reps aswell. Ruined their efficiency when a fleet was dropped on their heads. Woops.

Terrible Poster Runner-up 2014
eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-05-28 10:35:54 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
eien mirai wrote:
i do understand the difference in how they are used, i was asking which one people preferred for solo pvp and why

This contradicts itself. If you know the difference in how they are used, then this would seemingly include solo?
Quote:
i dont see how you think a machariel (autocannons) can do more dps than a vindicator (blasters)

In your chosen usage case, the Mach will APPLY more damage than a Vindicator. Stop looking at EFT.

Outside of sitting in docking range of a station in highsec, after wardeccing a carebear corp, a Vindy will see little "solo" use. Machs can pick their engagements much more easily and you're much less prone to losing them.

You'll probably also lose your first 2 or 3 without killing much in them, so factor that into your plans.

Solo faction BS PVP is the playground of the insanely rich, or the aforementioned station huggers.

it does not contradict itself. if you read the whole sentance, you will notice that i wanted personal preference.

and i get that a mach has much better speed and range options, that has already been established. i already know that the mach will be my choice due to obvious reasons, but the vindicator is CAPABLE of doing more all out damage. if you try to deny that, then you sir, are a fool.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#31 - 2012-05-28 16:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
eien mirai wrote:
it does not contradict itself. if you read the whole sentance, you will notice that i wanted personal preference.

and i get that a mach has much better speed and range options, that has already been established. i already know that the mach will be my choice due to obvious reasons, but the vindicator is CAPABLE of doing more all out damage. if you try to deny that, then you sir, are a fool.


RAW damage is not very important when looking at a true-solo setup, or people would use a Brutix instead of a Vagabond / Cynabal / Hurricane.

You exactly contradict yourself, you are asking a question whilst simultaneously claiming to know the answer. You were asking for the difference in how they were used, and one of those ships is great for solo and the other is not. You do not know what you are talking about, and demonstrate it repeatedly, so wind down the insults.

There is no personal preference to it, if you want to fly true-solo then you have to have a way of choosing your engagements. A vindicator will be engaged on the opponents terms everytime UNLESS you are station camping and simply dock if something comes along you can't close-range DPS.

Also, the Vindicator will be out-damaged by a Mach in many, many cases. STOP LOOKING AT EFT.

You also have a shift key, try that and you won't look so much of a "fool"

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#32 - 2012-05-28 16:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Here's some numbers.

http://i.imgur.com/s8SDR.jpg

Red line is Vindy shooting a Mach. Green line is Mach shooting. Null vs Barrage. 1100 dps vindy vs 810dps mach

Perhaps now you'll understand why these ships aren't flown solo, but with enough links and boosts to skirt around at way past normal point ranges and mess you up all in the face, whilst you can't do anything about it.

Even at "normal" point range the Mach has a slight edge, and can easily just run away if it gets in trouble. Even a T1 Tempest can engage a Vindicator and not risk being caught/killed if the pilot is skilled.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#33 - 2012-05-28 16:53:05 UTC
This is a perfect example of somebody failing at using EFT.

Tell me how these vectors could be possible (remember that one of these pilots is using a blaster boat).

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#34 - 2012-05-28 17:18:00 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
This is a perfect example of somebody failing at using EFT.

Tell me how these vectors could be possible (remember that one of these pilots is using a blaster boat).


Eh, I pretty much randomized them because it didn't matter to my central argument about range. If I wanted to throw in issues with tracking I could. The graph can look a whole lot worse for the Vindy than the example I chose.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#35 - 2012-05-28 17:20:31 UTC
E: and the existence of this discussion at all is evidence you need to look past "MOAR DAMAGE!" -- again my point.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Kiyarii Oskold
Give my 11percent back
#36 - 2012-05-28 22:36:49 UTC
Yes you do need to look past MOAR DAMAGE. Like tackle. A Mach can... long point something that can then just reapproach a gate/station. The Vindi has at least a 90% web, those tracking-breaking vectors you proposed won't be happening, anyone in damage range of a Vindi is hugely likely to be completely tackled and bearing the full brunt of their potential dps.

Also a Vindi is unlikely to use Null unless it has to... but you're linking PvE Incursion fits and graphing far beyond anyone's solo tackle range even with all the links & faction points in the world.
eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-05-28 22:54:21 UTC
saying theres no personal preference is absolutely ********. the machariel may do better in most situations when solo'ing. but some people may prefer to use the vindicator instead.

i never said the vindicator would beat the mach or out perform it. i was only unsure if you actually thought that the mach did more dps at perfect range/tracking.

and yes i know that the vindicator would have a near impossible time trying to get into range of a skilled mach pilot.

and because you no longer seem interested in helping me, only berating me due to your own misunderstandings, i would like to not so respectfully ask you to please: **** OFF.

thank you
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#38 - 2012-05-29 00:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
eien mirai wrote:
i never said the vindicator would beat the mach or out perform it. i was only unsure if you actually thought that the mach did more dps at perfect range/tracking.

No, you said
Quote:
i dont see how you think a machariel can do more dps than a vindicator

Which it very plainly can, making you quite clearly wrong.
Quote:
please: **** OFF

I won't. But its funny, those are the only three capital letters you managed in this entire thread.
Quote:
The Vindi has at least a 90% web, those tracking-breaking vectors you proposed won't be happening, anyone in damage range of a Vindi is hugely likely to be completely tackled and bearing the full brunt of their potential dps.

Also a Vindi is unlikely to use Null unless it has to... but you're linking PvE Incursion fits and graphing far beyond anyone's solo tackle range even with all the links & faction points in the world.

I just modified a couple of fits to have the correct modules that would have an effect and went from there. You may be interested to know the Vindicators damage output as shown is counting THREE Federation Navy webs into that graph. It's a little worse with the usual two. A little outside of the point, because without a range bonus a Vindy won't be landing them on anything which starts out at range and can kite.
It's using null because the story is much worse past 15km with anything else. The graph might go TOO far but you can point at 40km quite happily, at which point you can see the difference.
Quote:
saying theres no personal preference is absolutely ********

With these two ships, no, not really. One is a slow close range brawler designed to hammer targets it can catch and the other is a battleship with the speed and agility of a cruiser with all the advantages there of.
You can very well have the personal preference that you'll do all your webbing in a Rifter, but that doesn't mean it's better than a rapier at it.

Different tools for different tasks. I already gave you the usage case for using a solo-Vindy against a solo-Mach but you seemed rather intent on just rambling about damage, which barely comes into the discussion as a total figure, it's about the range at which you can apply it.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

eien mirai
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-05-29 01:25:34 UTC
i dont see how capitalizing letters is important to the thread. im capable of using the shift key or the caps lock key, but its not that important to me, as long as my message is received.

and i will say this one last time: i understand that the right tool for the right job applies to all situations and i now see that a vindicator would be less effective for solo pvp than a machariel. i also see that in a solo fight, the mach would win and be doing more dps than the vindicator due to speed and range. im not arguing that. all i was saying is a vindicator can do more dps than a mach in the right situation. perhaps not as frequently or easily, but it still can. and im not obsessed with damage as a main factor. damage is necessary in a fight, but so is survivability and the ability to escape if you have to. the vindicator and machariel can both tank enormous amounts of damage but the mach can get away more often than the vindicator, making it the better option.

i do not wish to argue with you any longer because its not helping any of us.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#40 - 2012-05-29 11:11:11 UTC
eien mirai wrote:
i dont see how capitalizing letters is important

Stopped there.

If you're content to pass yourself off as an illiterate idiot then no-one can help you.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

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