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Remove Damage Randomization

Author
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#41 - 2011-10-04 13:14:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Can't believe nobody in the 2 pages actually mentioned that the random number in the damage calculation actually does a lot more than just make not any shot doing the same damage but also how damage scales in real encounters by altering hit quality(not only how many shoots are hits but also at what damage level between 50-150 percent they hit for).

Math
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2011-10-04 14:07:41 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Can't believe nobody in the 2 pages actually mentioned that the random number in the damage calculation actually does a lot more than just make not any shot doing the same damage but also how damage scales in real encounters by altering hit quality(not only how many shoots are hits but also at what damage level between 50-150 percent they hit for).
That was kind of what I was hinting at: yes, there are random factors, but they are under the pilot's control (and thus subject to the application of skill) to a very large extent.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#43 - 2011-10-04 17:52:33 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Can't believe nobody in the 2 pages actually mentioned that the random number in the damage calculation actually does a lot more than just make not any shot doing the same damage but also how damage scales in real encounters by altering hit quality(not only how many shoots are hits but also at what damage level between 50-150 percent they hit for).
That was kind of what I was hinting at: yes, there are random factors, but they are under the pilot's control (and thus subject to the application of skill) to a very large extent.



I sorta indirectly said this when I mentioned Damage per hour factor.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Plyn
Uncharted.
#44 - 2011-10-04 20:10:33 UTC
De'Veldrin wrote:
Satav wrote:


There's nothing random about a car. It is a predictable machine.


Words fail me. I cannot even begin to describe how silly the previous statement is.


Gotta jump in here and mention that you were hit by the car by not keeping your transversal up in relation to the street.
Spr09
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2011-10-04 20:23:57 UTC
it's not like the crappy tf2 random where you can get 10x damage and kill someone with one shot, it's all within a range of 5-10% which doesnt make a difference between alphaing someone and not being able to break their tank.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#46 - 2011-10-04 21:27:04 UTC
only thing remotely close to the random tf 10x damage sort of thing is that hull penetrating shot. Though if you in hull does it matter?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Sigras
Conglomo
#47 - 2011-10-05 02:40:44 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Sigras wrote:
The more randomness you add the less skill is involved, that's why unnecessary randomization should be avoided
…and professional poker players are in reality just a bunch of really lucky guys. Roll

No. The more randomness you add, the more you skill shifts towards making sure the statistics work in your favour and towards making the opponent misread, misinterpret, and fail to account for those statistics. The random factor in EVE combat is pretty darn small on the scale of things, and the methods available to fudge the numbers to your benefit are plentiful. The skill lies in knowing how to do that and how to hedge against the opponent doing the same thing.

No, the skill in poker comes in the betting... If Texas hold'em had no betting, there would be no skill involved

And it doesn't matter how much or little the randomization effects the game, if the very principle is wrong it should be removed regardless of how it effects the game.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#48 - 2011-10-05 02:45:39 UTC
How is it wrong again?
Did it murder somone? oh wait it did, you murdered your companion cube, you are a very very bad person you orphan, you should burn.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2011-10-05 03:32:45 UTC
Sigras wrote:
No, the skill in poker comes in the betting... If Texas hold'em had no betting, there would be no skill involved
So much like in EVE then.
Quote:
And it doesn't matter how much or little the randomization effects the game, if the very principle is wrong it should be removed regardless of how it effects the game.
Big "if".

What the poker examples show is that the very principle is not wrong.
Sigras
Conglomo
#50 - 2011-10-05 03:35:07 UTC
It's wrong because it removes skill in favor of randomization... In fact, the link to the damage formula posted above proved it. There are 2 factors in that formula:

1. Whether or not you hit (this is modified by skill at keeping transverse low)
2. How much damage you do when you hit (this is entirely random and has nothing to do with skill)

Even so, this formula has to be wrong because it shows a 50% damage variation which is ridiculous and needs to be fixed.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#51 - 2011-10-05 03:55:18 UTC
Sigras wrote:
It's wrong because it removes skill in favor of randomization.
…except that skill is still very much a factor.
Quote:
1. Whether or not you hit (this is modified by skill at keeping transverse low)
2. How much damage you do when you hit (this is entirely random and has nothing to do with skill)
No. It is not entirely random — it is affected by how you fly your ship, because the interval of hit quality is determined by the hit chance, which is determined by positioning and relative movement.
Quote:
Even so, this formula has to be wrong because it shows a 50% damage variation which is ridiculous and needs to be fixed.
No, it is correct — the problem is that you don't fully understand it.
Sigras
Conglomo
#52 - 2011-10-05 06:20:03 UTC
1. I said it removes not eliminates... Skill is still a factor, but random chance is also a factor which it should not be, it should be all skill

2. Read the formula again... Z is taken into account when determining whether or not you hit, but is not taken into account when determining how much damage you do when you do hit.

Also a 50% random damage variance is way too much
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2011-10-05 07:52:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Sigras wrote:
Skill is still a factor, but random chance is also a factor which it should not be, it should be all skill
And the question remains why not (and why, in that order). Especially considering the history of RPGs…

…oh, and considering how important skill is to the final damage, that presumed “removal of skill” is utterly insignificant anyway.
Quote:
Read the formula again...
I know the formula. You don't.

Angular velocity and range is taken into account when determining the chance to hit.
The chance to hit determines the upper bound for the hit quality.
The die roll determines if you hit and, if you do, what hit quality within this range you get.

The second and third part are key here. The way the game “double-dips” the hit chance, the DPS is far more affected by the way you position your ship in relation to the enemy than anything else. To put this into some actual numbers, when your hit chance is 100%, your average DPS is 103%; at 75% hit chance, DPS is down to 68%; at 50% hit chance, damage is down to 34%; at 25% hit chance, you're doing 18% damage.

You affect the DPS by the way you fly your ship in relation to the opponent. There may be a random factor, but you are in direct control over how this randomness plays out. The worst case outcome of a well-flown attack is the same as the best-case outcome of a poorly flown one. Skill (or lack thereof) lets you turn one into the other. The damage application is not “completely random”. If you think this, it only means you haven't understood how the mechanic works.

Quote:
Also a 50% random damage variance is way too much
…and that further proves that you haven't understood the formulas. It is not a 50% variance. I have no idea where you get that number from, but I can assure you: it is not the right one.
Sigras
Conglomo
#54 - 2011-10-05 09:06:21 UTC
if you had read the link as requested, you would have found out as I did that you're thinking of the formula for hit chance not for damage calculation

The damage calculation is as follows (from the link above)

x is a random number between 0 and 1 generated for each shot
z is the hit chance from the formula you seem to know so well
q is a variable to store the "quality" of a given shot
d is the actual damage of the shot
d(max) is the total maximum non-wrecking damage of the shot

if x < 0.01; q=3
else; q = x + 0.5

if x < z; d=qd(max)
else; d = 0

if you need the formula explained just ask . . . :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2011-10-05 09:29:06 UTC
Sigras wrote:
if you had read the link as requested
I know the link, I know the formula, and as a result, I know that you haven't understood it.
Quote:
you would have found out as I did that you're thinking of the formula for hit chance not for damage calculation
Damage calculation is directly related to the hit chance formula.
Quote:
if you need the formula explained just ask
I'll be nice and explain it to you, even though you didn't ask, because your continued misunderstanding is becoming silly at this point.

The hit chance formula takes your movement and position into account (as well as the relationship between weapon and target stats) and spits out a number between 0 and 1. This is your chance to hit — ranging from 0% to 100%.

The game sacrifices a newborn to the Random Number God. This is your to-hit roll — again a number between 0 and 1.

If the roll is higher than your chance to hit, you miss.
If the roll is lower than your chance to hit, your damage quality is 0.5 + the die roll, giving a damage multiplier of ×0.51–1.5. These are reflected in-game as the various qualities (glancing through excellent hit).
If the roll is lower than 0.01, you get a damage multiplier of ×3. This is a “wrecking” shot.

If your hit chance is 1%, you will only ever get wrecking shots — your average DPS is 3% of the base number.
If your hit chance is 10%, you will get a damage multiplier in the ×0.51–0.6 range (because for die rolls of 0.01–0.1, you get the die roll + 0.5 as your damage multiplier, and for anything higher, you miss the target). This results in an average DPS of 7.91%.
If your hit chance is 50%, the range of possible damage multipliers is ×0.51–1.0 (again, hitting die rolls in the 0.01–0.5 range +0.5 for the final quality). This results in an average DPS of 39.51%
If your hit chance is 100%, the range of possible damage multipliers is ×0.51–1.5 (all results in the die are hits, 0.01–1.0 range +0.5 for the final quality). This results in an average DPS of 103%.

In other words, your range of possible hit qualities is directly dependent on the hit chance. The hit chance is directly dependent on the how you fly your ship. Guess what this means for the relationship between hit quality and manoeuvring…

Again, your problem is that you don't understand the formula. You don't understand how hit quality is calculated. You don't understand how hit quality is derived from hit chance. You don't understand how hit chance is derived from movement and positioning (i.e. skill-based) factors. As a result, you haven't got the slightest clue about what you're talking about and draw deeply flawed, utterly false, and easily disproved conclusion about what matters in combat.


This is how it works. Learn it. Before you do, STFU.
David Xavier
The Capsuleers of Unconscious Thought
#56 - 2011-10-05 11:58:02 UTC  |  Edited by: David Xavier
There is no randomness in life.

For example when you flip a coin, if you knew everything precisely about it's state and the forces affecting it during it's flight through the air you could always flip it the way to get the result you want.

This is even more true in EvE as every information required by the model that EvE uses to simulate the ships is known. However it is a rather simple one to require the fewest calculations possible so things like varying armour thickness and other weak spots like windows, doors, etcetera are not taken into account, also human factor is somewhat removed as you do not have direct control of your ship so evasive maneuvers are harder to accomplish. For this shortcoming the random number generator compensates somewhat.

I don't suffer from insanity.. I enjoy it !

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#57 - 2011-10-05 12:24:59 UTC
just becuase you flipped the coin it doesnt mean you are going to get your heads despite how well you trained yourself on coin flipping. there will always be that chance its going to land on its side and roll away.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Sigras
Conglomo
#58 - 2011-10-06 04:34:36 UTC
I see Tippia's point that your skill provides an upper bound to the damage that you can do, you guys are still to address my point that the entire damage calculation is completely unnecessary and removes some skill from the game.

Also, as Tippia so graciously pointed out which I did not notice on the first pass through reading the formula, if you have a 1% chance to hit, every shot will be a wrecking shot which makes no sense

Anyway setting all of that aside, I still maintain that there is no reason to have added this damage randomization calculation in the first place. yes skill is still involved in making the shot, but luck is still artificially added and it is my statement that it should not be because no other competitive game does that for a good reason: it removes skill.
Samantha Tel'Vellor
Continuum Interstellar Fleet Operations
#59 - 2011-10-06 05:08:10 UTC
The problem with removing randomness is that this is a MMORPG, with thousands of players active in the game at any given time. If you want to play a purely skill based space combat simulator, there are plenty of them out there that offer little to no randomization. However, Eve, like most MMORPGS runs on statistics and stat calculations under the hood, it does not respond directly to control input, and if it tried the servers would crash pretty fast, and pretty often.

There are some modern MMOs which have been attempting to move away from this game mode, but quite honestly, it suits Eve.

The random factor is the equivalent of getting headshots, or timing your yamato gun assaults just perfectly to destroy your enemy's carriers before they get an attack in. It is a relatively simple mechanic used by many games, both casual and competitive, to represent all those factors that the game simply can't effectively control. When I play Eve, I play to engage in a game far more akin to Dungeons and Dragons, than Chess. And I'd challenge you to find a single table top RPG out there that has no random factor to it at all.

Or at least one that's actually fun to play.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#60 - 2011-10-06 05:17:56 UTC
Also mind you SC marines have a nasy habbit of shooting thier next random target instead of smart focus firing and having to manually input thier direction of damage gets very annoying when focus fire is absouluty needed to do the most pernament damage possible.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.