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A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences

Author
TheBreadMuncher
Protus Correction Facility Inc.
#281 - 2012-05-28 17:10:57 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:

Were a real life band to conspire to affect markets by systematically attacking mining operations, there is ample precedent to recognize that governments and international organizations would act.


We would see concerted action on multiple fronts from the US, the EU, and the UN. Antitrust hearings. Courts and tribunals. Resolutions and committees.


Heh. Yeah. I'm sure. Because the US government is entirely innocent of commiting any kind of action that might in some way gain them economic benefit. Nope, they've never been on a SINGLE oil-motivated invasion or anything.

"We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#282 - 2012-05-28 17:11:19 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Rhah Kaundur wrote:
Bring an alt or friend to the belt with you in a very cheap frigate. Attack your own Hulk so that concord responds. The concord ships should hang around with you for awhile. That should give you a nice little escort fleet while you mine. If concord leaves..do it again.


Old trick, and I love the ingenuity of it, but I thought that was deemed an exploit at one time?


It is.
Rhah Kaundur
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#283 - 2012-05-28 17:12:31 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Rhah Kaundur wrote:
Bring an alt or friend to the belt with you in a very cheap frigate. Attack your own Hulk so that concord responds. The concord ships should hang around with you for awhile. That should give you a nice little escort fleet while you mine. If concord leaves..do it again.


Old trick, and I love the ingenuity of it, but I thought that was deemed an exploit at one time?


I don't know, maybe. Like other rule violations..as stated by the OP..its all open to interpretation.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#284 - 2012-05-28 17:15:25 UTC
@Oddball Six

If you really feel that strongly about CCP and their failure to stand by the rules of their own game...sue them. Take them to court. Cool
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#285 - 2012-05-28 18:01:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Good luck making any kind of profit on that kill.

Dude, I don't know you, or where your coming from, but really, you sound as bad as any hi-sec carebear with your "profit"/"loss" statements...

If i were to start ganking again, isk would be a secondary concern.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.

Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#286 - 2012-05-28 18:12:31 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
But, my point, that large nullsec alliances like Goonswarm and TEST wield far more power than the less organized highsec players, stands.

Yeah, that's sort of to be expected.


You misunderstand me. Power in the game /= power in determining CCP policy.

Certain individuals in those alliances hold far more influence over CCPs decision-making than anyone should. On one hand, it's nice that the devs interact with the community. Interacting is fine. Being friends with players is probably overstepping boundaries. How can one then separate policy born out of CCPs vision of the game, and policy born out of a group of friends, some of which are not CCP employees and have absolutely no business influencing policy?

In government, something like that is called corruption.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#287 - 2012-05-28 18:19:07 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
But, my point, that large nullsec alliances like Goonswarm and TEST wield far more power than the less organized highsec players, stands.

Yeah, that's sort of to be expected.


You misunderstand me. Power in the game /= power in determining CCP policy.

Certain individuals in those alliances hold far more influence over CCPs decision-making than anyone should. On one hand, it's nice that the devs interact with the community. Interacting is fine. Being friends with players is probably overstepping boundaries. How can one then separate policy born out of CCPs vision of the game, and policy born out of a group of friends, some of which are not CCP employees and have absolutely no business influencing policy?

In government, something like that is called corruption.


1) CCP has a vision for the game now? If they do, it's clearly not a consistent one.

2) Those individuals have that power due to the mass assent of the playerbase as expressed through free elections.

3) Assuming CCP has a vision for the game, what evidence do you have that it has changed from their stated vision in 2003 of EvE as a cold, dark universe full of violence?

4) If you have evidence of corruption or inappropriate relationships between Devs and Players, CCP's Internal Affairs would like to hear it.
EvEWiki wrote:

If you have a reasonable suspicion that an employee is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to internalaffairs@ccpgames.com .

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Kara Vix
Perkone
Caldari State
#288 - 2012-05-28 18:23:36 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
But, my point, that large nullsec alliances like Goonswarm and TEST wield far more power than the less organized highsec players, stands.

Yeah, that's sort of to be expected.


You misunderstand me. Power in the game /= power in determining CCP policy.

Certain individuals in those alliances hold far more influence over CCPs decision-making than anyone should. On one hand, it's nice that the devs interact with the community. Interacting is fine. Being friends with players is probably overstepping boundaries. How can one then separate policy born out of CCPs vision of the game, and policy born out of a group of friends, some of which are not CCP employees and have absolutely no business influencing policy?

In government, something like that is called corruption.


My thoughts exactly.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#289 - 2012-05-28 18:24:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Pak Narhoo
baltec1 wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Rhah Kaundur wrote:
Bring an alt or friend to the belt with you in a very cheap frigate. Attack your own Hulk so that concord responds. The concord ships should hang around with you for awhile. That should give you a nice little escort fleet while you mine. If concord leaves..do it again.


Old trick, and I love the ingenuity of it, but I thought that was deemed an exploit at one time?


It is.


No it is not. Smile
And you still haven't come up with something backing up your claim.


Edit

This is old but what the hey, read it then tell me again its an exploit: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=818978&page=1#26 scroll down to post 26 then post 43.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2012-05-28 18:32:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Rhah Kaundur wrote:
Bring an alt or friend to the belt with you in a very cheap frigate. Attack your own Hulk so that concord responds. The concord ships should hang around with you for awhile. That should give you a nice little escort fleet while you mine. If concord leaves..do it again.


Old trick, and I love the ingenuity of it, but I thought that was deemed an exploit at one time?


It is.


Man I wish uninformed people would just keep their mouths shut. “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” This is not an exploit as long as you don't biomass your character to get around sec-status drop. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1267319#post1267319
Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#291 - 2012-05-28 18:37:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Kaaeliaa wrote:
But, my point, that large nullsec alliances like Goonswarm and TEST wield far more power than the less organized highsec players, stands.

Yeah, that's sort of to be expected.


You misunderstand me. Power in the game /= power in determining CCP policy.

Certain individuals in those alliances hold far more influence over CCPs decision-making than anyone should. On one hand, it's nice that the devs interact with the community. Interacting is fine. Being friends with players is probably overstepping boundaries. How can one then separate policy born out of CCPs vision of the game, and policy born out of a group of friends, some of which are not CCP employees and have absolutely no business influencing policy?

In government, something like that is called corruption.


1) CCP has a vision for the game now? If they do, it's clearly not a consistent one.

2) Those individuals have that power due to the mass assent of the playerbase as expressed through free elections.

3) Assuming CCP has a vision for the game, what evidence do you have that it has changed from their stated vision in 2003 of EvE as a cold, dark universe full of violence?

4) If you have evidence of corruption or inappropriate relationships between Devs and Players, CCP's Internal Affairs would like to hear it.
EvEWiki wrote:

If you have a reasonable suspicion that an employee is abusing his/her position in some way in the game, you can contact Internal Affairs directly by sending an e-mail to internalaffairs@ccpgames.com .


1) If they don't have a vision, then nothing we or anyone else can do will stop this game from failing. Pray that isn't the case.

2) The elections have been absolutely plagued with allegations of corruption, vote-buying, intimidation, and favoritism.

3) I never pretended to know exactly what CCPs vision is, either then or now, and made no statements implying that I did. There is plenty of universe in New Eden for rampant violence, and I, personally, have never said that I want to end it. War and conflict is hardwired into human beings. However, the amount of rampant crime going on in Empire space is ridiculous. Not because I have objections to it due to personal reasons. I have never lost a ship in a scenario in which I didn't deserve to lose it. But, from a lore standpoint, the Empires should have much more of an interest in policing their space and keeping it safe for their own. Allowing thousands of murders and billions of ISK of property destruction, along with the consequent loss of industrial capability, sure is a ****-poor way to protect their interests.

4) If I had solid evidence of collusion, you're damned right I would report it. The problem is that the large alliances have no transparency, and no reason to have transparency. I'm not in one of them. I can see, from an outsider's point of view, that their interests may be being unduly protected. But, being an outsider means that I would have a great deal of problems trying to pinpoint specific problems or individuals. Naturally, the people that have gotten close enough to the corrupted individuals to be able to rat them out, wouldn't.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."

Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#292 - 2012-05-28 18:40:29 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
Talon SilverHawk wrote:
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:
Well this has turned into a complete goon -alt-a- thon.

No surprise there huh CCP ??

CCP hasn't figured out a good PvP mechanism so they are just going with the Gooons "Content". Wonderful!

And an ex Goon is telling how cool the completely fail UI is gonna work for us.

CCP you got garbage in u house. Clean it up!


Goons will.fight the change because it puts a spanner in Mittani's economic plans.

I mean why would anyone but a greifer really object to making hi sec a tad safer for certain activities, if its a case that its too easy to make isk mining in hi sec, what's hard about earning revenue shooting ships that can't fight back.


Tal


Here's where your problem is, you fail to realise that players are getting paid by players to do these things. This isn't some over powered game mechanic where people are earning isk directly for shooting miners. This is player created content driven by market manipulation. This is exactly what makes this game great, the idea of a multinational community working together to make isk and have fun. It just so happens that this is at the expense of people who don't understand how this game works...

I think here-in lies the further problem. A lot of you hiseccers in your 10 man indi corps cant fully comprehend what a community of a 1000+ players driven by a single or collection of motives to achieve something massive is really like. You dont see the work that's gone into amassing the funds required to motivate such widespread destruction. I mean, it can't be much harder than afk mining for enough hours to earn the isk for a plex and maintain that manufacturing pos so you can afk mine some more and watch that sp counter/wallet balnce go up indefinately, can it?


Your argument fell flat the moment you claimed to know what any other player in the game has experience of.

I'm not knocking what any large large entity including Goons have achieved even if I dislike their methods.

Still does not get away from the fact that its too easy and cheap to grief in hi sec. I like that hi sec can still be a dodgy place, but at the moment Its not balanced.

Lots of Goons in here as any change would affect Mittanis plans adversely.

Again why would anybody but a griefer complain about losing the chance to shoot defenceless targets in hi sec ?

Tal






Veronica Kerrigan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#293 - 2012-05-28 18:40:34 UTC
The role playing aspect of this is absurd, because Hulkageddon is not role play. It is an organized effort to collectively decrease the number of players mining in Highsec. This is griefing, which is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of CCP, as long as it's target is the populace at large. I can go out, and gank 100 different people, and there is no issue, because they are all isolated events. However if I gank the same person 100 times, I am deliberately making it impossible for them to play the game they have paid for, and it is a punishable offense.
Moreover, you are a CAPSULEER. You are immortal. What does CONCORD care if you get ganked? They are there to ensure that the laws are upheld, and when they are not, they act as judge, jury, and executioner of the wrongdoer. They spend their time protecting the people who NEED protection, the people who don't get a second chance. They leave it to you to deal with the dangers of flying in space.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#294 - 2012-05-28 19:06:45 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Good luck making any kind of profit on that kill.

Dude, I don't know you, or where your coming from, but really, you sound as bad as any hi-sec carebear with your "profit"/"loss" statements...

If i were to start ganking again, isk would be a secondary concern.


Good for you. Just about everyone else who ganks however do it for the isk.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#295 - 2012-05-28 19:11:29 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:

Man I wish uninformed people would just keep their mouths shut. “It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” This is not an exploit as long as you don't biomass your character to get around sec-status drop. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1267319#post1267319


According to CCP and the GMs that we as a corp and alliance have been told when we did our ice interdictions, spawning CONCORD in a belt to be bodyguards is a missuse of the mechanic and seen as an exploit. Anyone caught doing this will get a warning and further missuse will result in a temp ban. Anyone doing this should be reported to a GM.

What you are thinking about is not biomassing a ganking alt to avoid having to grind up sec status.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#296 - 2012-05-28 19:12:38 UTC
Talon SilverHawk wrote:


Your argument fell flat the moment you claimed to know what any other player in the game has experience of.

I'm not knocking what any large large entity including Goons have achieved even if I dislike their methods.

Still does not get away from the fact that its too easy and cheap to grief in hi sec. I like that hi sec can still be a dodgy place, but at the moment Its not balanced.

Lots of Goons in here as any change would affect Mittanis plans adversely.

Again why would anybody but a griefer complain about losing the chance to shoot defenceless targets in hi sec ?

Tal








Its only easy because people make it easy.
EVE Roy Mustang
Doomheim
#297 - 2012-05-28 19:29:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
Rhah Kaundur wrote:
Bring an alt or friend to the belt with you in a very cheap frigate. Attack your own Hulk so that concord responds. The concord ships should hang around with you for awhile. That should give you a nice little escort fleet while you mine. If concord leaves..do it again.


Old trick, and I love the ingenuity of it, but I thought that was deemed an exploit at one time?


It is.



Its also suggested by Mittens in the Goonswarm Shrugged thread
Google it. Its a good read
EVE Roy Mustang
Doomheim
#298 - 2012-05-28 19:31:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Good luck making any kind of profit on that kill.

Dude, I don't know you, or where your coming from, but really, you sound as bad as any hi-sec carebear with your "profit"/"loss" statements...

If i were to start ganking again, isk would be a secondary concern.


Good for you. Just about everyone else who ganks however do it for the isk.


Well they say they do it for that cause CCP's definition if griefing depends on you getting a profit from it and "for the lulz" could net you as the first person to ever get banned for griefing
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#299 - 2012-05-28 19:32:26 UTC
Veronica Kerrigan wrote:
The role playing aspect of this is absurd, because Hulkageddon is not role play. It is an organized effort to collectively decrease the number of players mining in Highsec. This is griefing, which is perfectly acceptable in the eyes of CCP, as long as it's target is the populace at large. I can go out, and gank 100 different people, and there is no issue, because they are all isolated events. However if I gank the same person 100 times, I am deliberately making it impossible for them to play the game they have paid for, and it is a punishable offense.
Moreover, you are a CAPSULEER. You are immortal. What does CONCORD care if you get ganked? They are there to ensure that the laws are upheld, and when they are not, they act as judge, jury, and executioner of the wrongdoer. They spend their time protecting the people who NEED protection, the people who don't get a second chance. They leave it to you to deal with the dangers of flying in space.


QQ

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#300 - 2012-05-28 19:33:15 UTC
EVE Roy Mustang wrote:



Its also suggested by Mittens in the Goonswarm Shrugged thread
Google it. Its a good read


Wrong again. That was undocking in an ibis after a gank to drag concord away from a belt which is a legit tactic.