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A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences

Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#101 - 2012-05-28 01:15:34 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:

Because apparently the game WASNT engineered to have different security spaces. Apparently your argument is that the sandbox portion of multiplayer sandbox is paramount, and the clear measures CCP has already taken (and are being ignored or engineered around) to protect high sec are really just a way of making sure you can personally do whatever you want.


CONCORD provides consequences, not protection. HighSec is Higher Security. Doesn't say anything about safety.

Quote:

Say what you like, CCP has engineered game elements intended to establish and protect high security space outside of clearly defined conditions like corp war decs, allowing retribution for illegal actions like theft, etc.

Those elements clearly establish an intent to allow for a space which also has its costs. The key high value ores which are required for high value manufacturing are not present in high sec. Anchoring cannot happen in sec above 0.7. Certain types of missions are not available in high sec. The missions and activities available in high sec are broadly speaking lower value than those in low sec and null sec.

CCP needs to make a decision. Was high sec essentially a "cul de sac" intended exclusively to allow newbie generation, OR do they want to protect the segment of revenue which comes from gamers interested in activities OTHER than the pvp oriented play of low/null sec?


HiSec is just as big of a PvP playground as the rest of EvE. Most of it just happens to be in the form of Market PvP. Since it would break the game to be able to opt out of only some PvP, any PvP-Opt out would have to be permanent and cut the toon off from the PvP side. SiSi works really well if you want to do stuff without PvP.

Quote:

Because that's the decision at the end of the day. Do they want to act and protect the account base as it stands today, or are they willing to see what the long term effect is if these activities change the dynamic of who plays and pays over the long term? Remember a tenth of a percentage point of the player base is real money. It moves profitability. It affects marketing and other expenses. When you get to 1, 2, 4, 7% of the player base, now you are affecting current jobs and future development.

CCP needs to make a call.

Is this a anyone does anything sandbox? Or does high sec mean something? And where is the line drawn? Because today, gamers have found ways to organize and deter mining to the tune of 40% percent, and affect the mining operations and assets of thousands of players. Some of whom may be making the decision that the game is no longer worth the investment or that its not the game they thought it was. Apparently the sandbox only has room for the ones willing to fling crap, and not for those interested in building castles.


The Sandbox has only enough room for so many castles before people want to knock them down. The smarter monkeys learn to protect the castles that are important to them.

EvE is a Niche game, and that's why it's subs have been growing year after year for all 8 years. Besides WoW, no other MMO has done that. Removing PvP would turn EvE into a themepark MMO and it would likely follow the themepark MMO pattern:

Launch > People > People finish content in 2 months > People unsub until next expansion > Company folds.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Dreksl
Screaming Hayabusa
#102 - 2012-05-28 01:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dreksl
This crab has some wisdom to share on this topic. Also Kaeda I love you.
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#103 - 2012-05-28 01:17:05 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:
The enemy?
Yes, "enemy." You are my enemy, and you are the enemy of all EVE whether you know it or not.

I wholeheartedly support the actions being taken against you, and I congratulate Kaeda Maxwell for destroying your mining vessel. I think Kaeda Maxwell deserves particular credit for killing your pod. Most highsec gankers are unable to kill the pods which, as we see in your case, often hold very valuable implants.

If you are genuinely interested in learning why you are the enemy, and why you need to cease your mining activity, I invite you to read this quick post I wrote on the topic, which explains everything.

Regardless, I wish you the best, unless you continue to mine in highsec in which case I wish you unending destruction (no offense). Smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#104 - 2012-05-28 01:18:42 UTC
Arcticblue2 wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:


That's fine, it doesn't mean they're entitled to be wrapped in cotton wool though. If they can't protect their interests then they run the risk of losing them just like everyone else in the game.


Now that is partial true, because CCP also have found out that miners in low-sec and 0.0 should get a boost because it is so dangerous but we all know that being a miner in high-sec is quite alot more dangerous because there you won't have any protection from suicidegankers, in 0.0 you have your sovereigny with your alliance for protection.


Aren't alliances made out of other people? And CONCORD made of... pixels?

Nullsec is safe to mine in IF and only IF a huge number of people put a huge amount of Effort into making it so.
Null is High Effort (collective) > High Reward (individual and collective)
High is No Effort (individual) > Moderate Reward (individual) Low Reward (collective).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Arcticblue2
Nordic Freelancers inc
#105 - 2012-05-28 01:18:43 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:

What would happen if anyone ganking a hulk in high sec were flagged as criminals until they paid a hefty fine? No entry to any stations held by the sovereignty where the crime was committed. No use of sovereign assets, such as jumpgates. The fine would take money out of circulation easing inflation. Win. Win. But, for the players pretending to be leet...ganking unarmed ships in high sec. Gimme a break. That's something we should bend over backwards to save - such skill.
Such finesse. Roll

PS That level of ability should invite them to go faceroll WoW.


Actually there are many good ideas... paying fines for suicideganking ... also does make the timer for concord last only in gametime so there is no point for the player to log off to wait out the timer with their main instead ... so that would make them having to wait a while before next target and such.
Oddball Six
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-05-28 01:24:44 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Oddball Six wrote:
The enemy?
Yes, "enemy." You are my enemy, and you are the enemy of all EVE whether you know it or not.

I wholeheartedly support the actions being taken against you, and I congratulate Kaeda Maxwell for destroying your mining vessel. I think Kaeda Maxwell deserves particular credit for killing your pod. Most highsec gankers are unable to kill the pods which, as we see in your case, often hold very valuable implants.

If you are genuinely interested in learning why you are the enemy, and why you need to cease your mining activity, I invite you to read this quick post I wrote on the topic, which explains everything.

Regardless, I wish you the best, unless you continue to mine in highsec in which case I wish you unending destruction (no offense). Smile


Actually I have read your manifesto.

I think you over-reach, frankly. Towers, player owned stations, and larger corps have as much to do with the changes in PvP dynamics as anything you cite in your series of posts. I do, however applaud you for expounding on the idea so extensively, I may not agree with you, but I can appreciate the detail in your position.

My position is that high sec should be as it is today, just with a touch more protection to ensure it remains a "more safe" area in the face of new gank-fests and player organized competitions like hulkageddon.

High sec should stay low/moderate value. High sec should remain neutral and NPC corp controlled. High sec should have all of the nerfs I have already touched on in my earlier posts re anchoring, POS, T1 components only, low missions, etc.

I think that mining can happen in high sec, and be part of the broader economy and game, but that CCP needs to act in SOME way to preserve it as ONE POSSIBLE profession among the many available. When an entire sector of the game has been reduced by half, that is a rousing indictment that the balances available in the system are inadequate and action is needed.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#107 - 2012-05-28 01:26:23 UTC
Arcticblue2 wrote:


Actually there are many good ideas... paying fines for suicideganking ... also does make the timer for concord last only in gametime so there is no point for the player to log off to wait out the timer with their main instead ... so that would make them having to wait a while before next target and such.


The ganker loses their ship
They get a sec status hit and will be attacked by the empire navies when it gets low enough
They turn flashy red in local and on the overveiw
Anyone can attack a -10 pirates ship
Concord will destroy any ship the pirate gets into within 15 minutes of aggression
The "victim" can kill the pirate

Seems we already have penalties in place.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#108 - 2012-05-28 01:28:47 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:


Actually I have read your manifesto.

I think you over-reach, frankly. Towers, player owned stations, and larger corps have as much to do with the changes in PvP dynamics as anything you cite in your series of posts. I do, however applaud you for expounding on the idea so extensively, I may not agree with you, but I can appreciate the detail in your position.

My position is that high sec should be as it is today, just with a touch more protection to ensure it remains a "more safe" area in the face of new gank-fests and player organized competitions like hulkageddon.

High sec should stay low/moderate value. High sec should remain neutral and NPC corp controlled. High sec should have all of the nerfs I have already touched on in my earlier posts re anchoring, POS, T1 components only, low missions, etc.

I think that mining can happen in high sec, and be part of the broader economy and game, but that CCP needs to act in SOME way to preserve it as ONE POSSIBLE profession among the many available. When an entire sector of the game has been reduced by half, that is a rousing indictment that the balances available in the system are inadequate and action is needed.


There is nothing new happening. Everything you see going on has been going on for the past 5 years or from the very start.
Oddball Six
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2012-05-28 01:29:46 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Arcticblue2 wrote:


Actually there are many good ideas... paying fines for suicideganking ... also does make the timer for concord last only in gametime so there is no point for the player to log off to wait out the timer with their main instead ... so that would make them having to wait a while before next target and such.


The ganker loses their ship
They get a sec status hit and will be attacked by the empire navies when it gets low enough
They turn flashy red in local and on the overveiw
Anyone can attack a -10 pirates ship
Concord will destroy any ship the pirate gets into within 15 minutes of aggression
The "victim" can kill the pirate

Seems we already have penalties in place.


Which are clearly effective [/sarcasm].

I think that's the problem, none of these are particularly effective in a high sec zone. Particularly when these individuals are able to dock at stations, etc, as if nothing had happened.
Mercy Kills
Reapers...
#110 - 2012-05-28 01:29:52 UTC
Dreksl wrote:
This crab has some wisdom to share on this topic. Also Kaeda I love you.


God, that's awesome. Saving that and +1 for you good, sir.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2012-05-28 01:34:31 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:


Which are clearly effective [/sarcasm].

I think that's the problem, none of these are particularly effective in a high sec zone. Particularly when these individuals are able to dock at stations, etc, as if nothing had happened.


Log in and jump into a badger

Now park yourself on the perimiter gate in jita and count how long it takes for someone to kill you.


Then take a badger to a high traffic lowsec gate and count how long you last.
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#112 - 2012-05-28 01:37:37 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:
My position is that high sec should be as it is today, just with a touch more protection
You are afflicted by the "one more nerf" disease. Why weren't all of the previous nerfs to ganking enough? Because you don't want your ship to be destroyed, even if you fail-fit it.

Quote:
[]....to ensure it remains a "more safe" area in the face of new gank-fests and player organized competitions like hulkageddon.
You think it's against the EULA to do Hulkageddon. Player-organized events like Hulkageddon are a primary draw of EVE. And you want to ban people from doing them.

Mining, for obvious reasons, does not and cannot take priority.
Quartzlight Evenstar Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
#113 - 2012-05-28 01:39:46 UTC
Dreksl wrote:
This crab has some wisdom to share on this topic. Also Kaeda I love you.


I've been CRAB-WOWED ! Big smile

+20

***

Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#114 - 2012-05-28 01:42:59 UTC
This story made me aware of EVE:

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/

Before I read about this I couldn't imagine paying a monthly subscrition to a game. Now I've been doing so for 6 years.

... oh, and I also want to see some more WIS Big smile

Jill.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#115 - 2012-05-28 01:43:11 UTC
James 315 wrote:
]You are afflicted by the "one more nerf" disease. Why weren't all of the previous nerfs to ganking enough? Because you don't want your ship to be destroyed, even if you fail-fit it.

If there's enough buffs the only fail fit will be one without max yield.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Mercy Kills
Reapers...
#116 - 2012-05-28 01:45:58 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Arcticblue2 wrote:


Actually there are many good ideas... paying fines for suicideganking ... also does make the timer for concord last only in gametime so there is no point for the player to log off to wait out the timer with their main instead ... so that would make them having to wait a while before next target and such.


The ganker loses their ship
They get a sec status hit and will be attacked by the empire navies when it gets low enough
They turn flashy red in local and on the overveiw
Anyone can attack a -10 pirates ship
Concord will destroy any ship the pirate gets into within 15 minutes of aggression
The "victim" can kill the pirate

Seems we already have penalties in place.


Which are clearly effective [/sarcasm].

I think that's the problem, none of these are particularly effective in a high sec zone. Particularly when these individuals are able to dock at stations, etc, as if nothing had happened.


Yea, YOU think they're not effective because YOU got caught with your pants down. Seriously all this whining and you still haven't provided good enough answers to some very relevant questions:

*Why the **** would you fly a 300million isk ship and not even TRY to protect it(i.e. fitting it with SOME sort of tank)?

*Why do you think after 9yrs of Eve encouraging this cutthroat kind of gameplay, should CCP change everything now because people like you apparently, have the isk to spare to buy an expensive ship but apparently, buying the relatively inexpensive mods to keep it protected are just out of your price range(read: you're lazy) ?

*Why is it so hard for you to understand that being in hi-sec space does not mean you are invincible? It only means and it has ALWAYS ONLY meant(again for NINE years that you are relatively MORE safe than you would be in low/null sec. That all means, for the slow among us, that you still need to be on your toes(for example: TANKING. YOUR. SHIP.) and that you can still be killed if someone wants you dead bad enough as long as that person is willing to accept the consequences for the act of killing you.

Lastly, but maybe the most important:

*Why on EARTH would you not make sure that you knew what the game was truly about before you plopped down your credit card info? This is not anything new and has always been and always will be until the servers shut down. Why you think the entire game should change for you because YOU got caught being lazy and doing something that even one week old players know(your ship should be fitted with a tank) is...beyond the realm of logical thought.

Not being mean but maybe instead of beating your head against the brick wall that is trying to "ganking" banned(read: **** that's never gonna happen) why not either a.) take this as a learning experience and say, "hey, i will never leave the station without my ship being properly fitted again and i will definitely keep an eye out for strange people entering the asteroid field I'm in." or b.) just change to a game that has set pve servers where you know that you can pick flowers, mine, enchant, etc etc. and never be touched.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#117 - 2012-05-28 01:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ituhata Saken
Quote:

Yet CCP has denoted conduct such as this which determines to interfere with the operation of the system and the enjoyment of other players as verboten through at least two provisions.

Quote:

"Role-playing is encouraged, but not at the expense of other player. You may not create or participate in a corporation or group that habitually violates this policy. "


-http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp

The terms of service at http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp specifically forbids role playing that interferes with others enjoyment of the game as well as forbidding conduct which disallows others to enjoy the game.


Role playing violates the rules of the sandbox. More importantly, role playing usually doesn't destroy a ship which often results in more plex/money for CCP.

So close...

Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#118 - 2012-05-28 01:52:31 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Homo Jesus wrote:
I too want a change to the rules so it's easier for me to win at something. Whenever I get the time I'll find the bits and pieces of the EULA that support my views and make another thread to help our douche bag cause.

He's simply used to the real-life status quo, where people like himself have always gotten ahead via lobbying and frivolous lawsuits. There is nothing competitive about the state of business today, save for the free-for-all that is the entry-level job market. The whole system is fixed and rotten, but aside from that, it encourages complacency.

He is unable to enter an environment that EVE simulates, a purer, more base environment, and compete. He became lost, and unable to respond to changing trends. So he came to the forums, and with the usual passive-aggressive attitude that his kind exhibits, tried to get what he wants by making a bunch of real-life legal parallels.

At some point, he forgot that he was playing a video game with guns.

The thing that gets me the most, though, is that he thinks that his subscription acts as anything more than a cash buffer for CCP's actual development budget. It is indeed ignorant to think that CCP itself doesn't realize that the players who whine about getting killed will quit at some point. The only way they would stay (and even that is questionable, due to the whole boredom factor), is if these players were never violenced in any way, shape, or form. And in a game like EVE, that's simply impossible.



Pretty much.
Kaeda Maxwell
Screaming Hayabusa
#119 - 2012-05-28 01:53:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
Hello Oddball,

I'm sure you know who I am. You'll be pleased to learn (I hope) I don't live in my mothers basement either. In fact it's a fairly nice three bedroom apartment with two balconies. I'm not a husband or a father because I instead would like to retire early to a nice cottage preferably overlooking the sea, and well children cost money. We all make our choices in life. I am however like you employed full time, I fly a desk nothing overly impressive. I fail to see how any of this is relevant to EVE Online, which is a fictional universe that only exists as code on a server-park somewhere in London.
But since you seemed to think real life had some bearing on all this I decided to be courteous and indulge you.

Lets move on to the matter at hand shall we, your Hulk and pod that so unfortunately (for you) died due to my actions in Bahromab, which you seem to think is some random act of griefing. Since arguing opinions would be a futile exercise I shall instead share with you the work that went into accomplishing your virtual demise in this instance. And some views on EVE as a game.

As you may or may not have noticed I'm -10.0 which means operating in hisec takes some doing, so lets start with that.
In order to find targets I use an alt, unlike most gankers my alt isn't exactly inconspicuous had you paid attention to local in Bahromab you would have noticed Kohana Maxwell. She was around for quite a while as you switched belts several times before you finally (almost) stayed put. Had you paid any attention to your directional scanner you would have also noticed combat probes following you around from belt to belt. Anyway I digress.
Once I seized you up to be a viable target I undocked from Youl station, which is in hisec (0.8), and warped to an undock bookmark I had made earlier using said alt. Then I proceed to head over to Bahromab which is a 7 jump journey since I have to avoid the busy system of Madirmilire which often has suicide gankers of a different brand present who would happily explode my flashy red catalyst upon entering the system. Regardless that is 7 jumps on which any alert players can end my endeavour there and then.
Eventually I arrived in Kudi, one jump away from you, sadly for me you at this point decided to switch belts again so I spend the next 3 or 4 minutes bouncing between celestials in Kudi with the Amarr Navy in hot pursuit. Meanwhile waiting for you to pick a new belt (Planet 5 Belt 1 if I recall correctly) and dual boxing keeping Kaeda alive and moving and relocating probes on Kohana to get a decent warp in.
When this finally happened I came into system had Kohana squad warp Kaeda on top of you and exploded your hulk and indeed you pod. Which turned out to be quite the rewarding killmail indeed.

Afterwards I salvaged the wreck and looted I think a single T2 stripminer the result of which only just about covered the cost of my T2 fitted catalyst. Which hadn't it been for the well nice pod mail would have made me consider it a mediocre gank, I like to actually run a profit on them.
You see and this is where we differ in opinion, what you call griefing isn't in fact griefing so much. I make decent ISK ganking miners I wrote a lengthy blog on it here. Yes obviously Hulkageddon provides added value (for me), I'll even admit I would have done other things in May in EVE had it not been Hulkageddon. I don't even do it for the tears which I also wrote a lengthy blog about actually. But that said a competition to liven things up a little, plus chatting with other gankers and all in all Hulkageddon is quite the worthwhile content to me. And Helicity is a star for putting in the time to organize and administer it all if you ask me.

Anyway Oddball, I don't think we are very likely to ever agree on what comprises 'fun gameplay', but I would like to point out that when you come to a sandbox game you might want to keep in mind that what you consider 'fun' or 'worthwhile' might not even be recognizable as such by somebody else in the same sandbox. You may think of me as some random griefer, while in fact I'm having a lot of fun working around the fact I'm -10.0 and attempting to make a profit ganking miners in hisec despite it (and succeeding).
You don't however see me going onto the forums and writing some wall of text quoting the EULA to try and get CCP to remove mining from the sandbox because I don't consider it fun or entertaining, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least consider providing us 'griefers' the same courtesy. At the end of the day EVE is a a sandbox and a PvP game that you and I both willingly subscribe too and I may assume (I hope) while being aware of both these things.
Yet here you are pleading to CCP to invalidate a gameplay style you don't agree with for mostly no other reason then that it interferes with your own.
Nothing is stopping you from interfering with my playstyle for the record, and I mean in game within EVE's existing framework and rules (instead of by trying to get CCP to change the rules). Such is the very nature and beauty of EVE.

I look forward to your cunning ingame revenge. I promise not to post a lengthy post on the forums begging CCP's aide when it happens.

Peace,

Kaeda out.

p.s. After the 29th I'll be out in lowsec and null again you'll be pleased to learn, contrary to popular myth being a ganker and a pvp'er aren't mutually exclusive.
Tyraenin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-05-28 01:54:48 UTC
I have to marvel at the sheer sense of entitlement the OP has. This game is about taking something from somoene else. You grief other miners because every rock you chew up with your Hulk is one less rock that another miner is able to mine. Ergo, you have taken resources from another player - Griefer.

But if someone takes something away from you, you somehow feel wronged and come here and whine. You are not the first and I have no doubt that you won't be the last. At the end of the day though. the collective whine is the demon spawn of a over-inflated sene of entitlement.

You have assets in the game. There is even an icon on the Neocom labeled "Assets" and you feel entitled to have those assets and don't feel as though you should be troubled to have to defend them. All the shinies are yours! The lesson to take from this is to consider the consequences of your actions just as Kaeda Maxwell did when she exploded your Hulk (that you refused to defend) and then your pod (which you refused to defend). There are also consequences to your inaction.

I would say if this is difficult for you to swallow you will continue to have your shinies taken away from you.

Regards.