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Sucide Ganking Needs To Be Removed - Below is why.
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Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#81 - 2012-05-23 05:04:14 UTC
Wow, I am convinced people truly believe that all these gankers, are actually breaking game rules and ccp is doing nothing to "fix the problem" and the game is about to die because of it Big smile

Also, lol at Hulk should be able to stand up to 2 tornados . Can a single tornado stand up to 2 tornados? But the Hulk, as a resource extraction vessel should be able to handle 2 warships? bahaha
Driven
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-05-23 05:16:13 UTC
I disagree with the concept of eliminating suicide ganking. Its part of the game. Its happened to me and been done by me.

I think EVE is unique in that at no time are your toons ever completely safe. I would like to see this unchanged.
WarriorRace
Ion Heavy Industries
#83 - 2012-05-23 07:58:18 UTC

"Why on earth should it not? It's a far more resilent mining vehicle, designed to mine in dangerous space by description. The most dangerous space for a miner is high-sec, and it can't survive there longer than a "pffffft" - moment.. are you trolling, or have you missed reading once more? "

What are you talking about in 0.0 there are bubbles, caps, battleship rats, rats that scramble your warp drive, rats that web you, constant pvp. how is highsec anything like null sec. if i try and gank you in high sec i lose my ship, in null sec i don't unless there is a defense fleet.

At the end of the day this is a game that requires you to work as a team some of the most successful toons are in larger corps or alliances not 10 man or 5 man mining corps. sure you have all those pretty things but what happens when hulkageddon comes along you don't adapt you die in belts and come to the fourms.

P.S. most pvpers hate miners, they are the first to drop corp/alliance when it gets tough, and the last to join a fleet to fight for what they have. if you look on dotlan you can see it everytime an alliance falls apart most of the first corps to drop are the indy ones bet me.
WolfSchwarzMond
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-05-23 08:49:28 UTC
1st a little background.
I have been a miner since the 3rd day of playing Eve. I only PVP during War Operations It's what I do. I run my own mining fleets. I've done this in High Sec, Low Sec and Null Sec.

As I am a year older then you in Eve I will now display some of my wisdom.

Eve is FLY AT YOUR OWN RISK. or FAYOR. Only safe thing in this game is sitting docked in a station. Deal with it or find something else to play. I hear Hello Kitty Island is fun.

Gankers are a way of life in Eve. You just have to learn to deal with them. The are part of the whole "play your way" aspect of Eve. The only thing you can do is change your tactics to make yourself less of an easy kill. Use Combat drones not mining. Find a out of the way system that has low traffic, watch local, and fit some tank on your hulk. If you go for max cargo room you pop like a thin balloon.

If your smart the loss of a ship to a ganker is only a minor thing. You should be saving enough ISK to replace your losses. ATM I could replace all 3 of my Hulks, my Orca and my Rorqual out of what's in my wallet, and not be broke. If you can't afford to lose it DON"T FLY IT.

The entire basis of Eve is RISK VS. REWARD.
If CCP removes ganking what's the risk in mining?!?!? The Rats!?!? Or that you'll hit a rock!?!? It seems to me that you want to mine away making ISK hand over fist with nothing to worry about. The Risk of getting ganked is what makes mining profitable if there was no risk in it prices would be crap. This is not WoW with vendors who will buy ten million of the same item at a set price. If there is a supply but no demand you'll make nothing. Gankers and PVP Gun Bunnies CREATE demand for your product!! If you remove ganking then you change the ENTIRE market system of the game. I'll bet you money you've sold your minerals to someone that used it to make a ship that someone else used to gank miners with. There is profit for you in people getting Ganked.

With the exception of Hulkaggeddon ganking has little actual effect on the actual supply of minerals on the market. For every Exhumer the gankers get there are 20-40 that are happily mining away. Therefore the net effect on the amount of minerals in game is VERY LOW. The mineral prices are pretty steady save the Spring/Fall/Christmas Spikes and the recent Drone changes. So to answer your question "Who will mine? Who is gonna bother when CFC and co just kill any miners who try ? Whow ould bother playing eve?" I and about 50000 other people will.

And just in case you wanna complain that I don't know what I'm talking about......
2 Hulk Kill 1 stupid SB
Granted that's a crap fit SB. But 2 Hulks took him out using only DRONES. Not trap hulks, no gunship support just 2 MINERS.

Oh and one final note, by whining about Gankers in the Forums you've now just placed a giant target on your back. Every Ganker that reads this will add you to their watch list. Congradulations.
Kaeda Maxwell
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#85 - 2012-05-23 10:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaeda Maxwell
Jessica Sweetwater wrote:
Hi

I have spent nearly a week running this over in my mind trying to figure out what this type of game play is allowed. I have researched the amount of ISK lost and looked at kills, tried to contact the players with huge losses, sumtimes his with replys of *had enuff, happend so many times, im quitting* to others saying *it's a shite game mechanic and needs to be removed*

So i then go to thinking on concord on how that would work per system to navy responce etc.

When we declare war we are put into a sub catergory of *yes you can not shoot members from this corp*. Concord has the power to do that. So my question is, in any which way does this type of grief play help the game, and make no mistake, sucide ganking is grief play. So how to stop it

In my research i have come to see that it serves no useful purpose, it does not help the market, it does not help the player base. If anything it harms the game.


Ganking miners isn’t griefing at all. It’s a legitmate way of making ISK in EVE. That’s not to say people don’t use it to grief too, but it can just be an EVE career choice to make isk, just like say mining or missioning is.

A single T2 stripminer easily covers the loss of a fully fitted T1 Catalyst and that’s before other loot like T2 drones and salvage. And pretty much any mining ship not a Hulk can be reliably ganked in a T1 Catalyst. You can make a *very* healthy profit doing (ganking and the looting/salvaging with an alt) this.
T2 catas can often gank Hulks too and the T2 salvage+loot often covers that too with profit if you loot the dropped T2 modules form the cata wreck (after concord destroyed it).
Potentially you can steal the already mined ore too if you want to got the extra mile while at it.

So your research is basically just bad when you conclude it serves no purpose in game other then griefing. Because it does, people make ISK doing it. One miners death is another gankers bread...

P.S. Orca’s are fancy, I just use undock bookmarks and gank from station in hisec I regularly travel 5 or 6 jumps to a target too, not that many people in hisec fit scrams even fewer have the reflexes to respond fast enough.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#86 - 2012-05-23 13:45:02 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The beauty of the EVE economy is that it's an actual economy so the kind of crash you see in other games can't happen


I am hijacking this thread for a moment and taking it to Iran.

I liked your post, but this one line threw me. I'm guessing not many people realize this, but EvE is not a real economy. I mean, it looks like one, yes, but underneath it all... it really isn't. I'm looking for a "The Matrix" metaphor here.

The problem with every MMO economy is that it is inherently inflationary. This is because every MMO hands out "credits" (here we call them "ISK") for performing quests ("missions" in EvE speak). Where does this currency come from? They make it out of thin air - just like the Federal Reserve, I might add, which is why a steak dinner that cost you $2 back in 1950 now costs you $40. It's not that the price of everything went up that much, rather it's the value of the money has gone down that much - which is exactly what happens when you make money out of thin air with nothing to back it up (be it commodities or labor). When you get payout for a rat bounty or mission, CCP is making ISK out of magic and handing it to you.

From there that ISK may trade hands a hundred times between you and various merchants. It can, in theory, stay in the game forever like this, just going from one player to another effectively unto eternity. Do this long enough and the "inflation" (which, as mentioned before, is actual "deflation" misrepresented) would drive the price of a single round of small ammo into the tends of thousands of ISK (not that this would even slow down the Incursion junkies, but that's another story...).

The way EvE counters this, of course, is by blowing crap up. This is a little detail that most MMOs fail to do, which is why their economies are so utterly FUBAR ("50,000 platinum for a +1 dagger?" shrieks the new player of... well, anything, really). Blowing crap up is how money magically disappears in EvE, sending it right back into the void of nonexistence from which it came.

So despite how complex EvE's economy looks on the surface, in the end it is actually really simple: ISK comes from nothing, and in the end it returns to nothing. Every ISK in the game started it's existence as either a mission payout or a rat bounty. Every ISK in the game ends it's existence in a blaze of light and fire. Everything in between is just the illusion of a "real" economy, the goods and services that trade hands during the comically finite lifespan of that ISK.

Think about that for a while and then think about the full implications of PLEX, and try not to laugh out loud.

Thanks for reading. You can have your thread back now. Pirate

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Fred Lodenstane
Lizard Ltd
#87 - 2012-05-23 13:51:34 UTC
Your whole argument is based off of the fact that all forms of mining happen just in highsec, and that this will always be the case. This is wrong, and as mining becomes a more profitable thing to do you'll start to see more mining operations going on in the big nullsec blocs. SUicide ganking has always been present in Eve and if it was the biggest reason behind all the fluctuations in prices, then we would have been seeing the effects of suicide ganking, say, six years ago. The Drone regions changes combined with OTEC are what's really stirring the pot here, but even this won't break the game. If anything too mining and industry will become more popular because it is a viable profession, you just need to be safe about it which isn't that hard. Same goes for hauling.

From what I can gather from the Op's few posts, this person seems to have a beef with the CFC, and probably has an arousal-based hatred for Mittens. Also, I wouldn't mind an Eve with fewer capitals. If mineral scarcity leads to this then all the better.
Vinn Kelsier
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-05-23 15:45:50 UTC
Jessica Sweetwater wrote:
Vinn Kelsier wrote:
Just out of curiosity as a thought exercise: What if CCP gave into all of your ideas automagically pow! When does it stop? A complete ban on ganking or some draconian payment system are complete counter to the concept of the game!
It seems to me that you will never be happy until high sec is a no risk systems. Is your idea the last of its kind? When the gankers find the work around will you cry then as well?

Why is the solution never to educate the uninformed that the game has risk and nowhere is 100% Safe. I would assume that a hulk pilot of all people would not need to be told about this. I guess it is just easier to complain, than align out and mine. I have seen plenty of people on the forums give the best advice as to how to beat the gank, but no no no! We can not have people learning to play, we must punish those that play in a manner we do not approve of.

Vinn


You can sit there and act like a complete ass all you like. I doubt very much you have as much of a big mouth in real life as you do on the forums. I also find it amusing you have to use an alt to post cause *daddy alliance leader said dont post on the forums*.

None of you have got the point and those of you who use your weapons to think and not your brains cannot and never will be able to se the long term reprocussions of your actions in the now. You think high sec mining is a bad thing, exactly where do you think your capital parts and ships come from? Your hurricanes and drakes? Your cov ops frigs n such? Mostly from high sec corps.

But no, you carry on, i will repeat what i said before, I HAVE NEVER BEEN SHOT AT IN A MINING BARGE IN MY LIFE. I am simply outlining an issue and in true eve playerbase style. PvP pilots are like loyal lapdogs to the biggest moputh.

All it takes is one person to troll and the rest jump on. I find it pathetic.

You carry on, you keep killing miners, you keep screwing high sec up and when there are no cap ships or very few on the market and t2 ship prices and t2 ammo prices have goen thru the roof and u can no longer afford to keep pvping. We will stand there, smile and say *we warned you this would happen, did you listen? No, your ego wouldnt let you*.

10k of any t2 or faction ammo - 10million ISK - Sky rocket prices.


Amazing!

A virtual non-verbal vitriol of a response that in no way speaks to my statement. Do you pick quotes at random to tag your diatribe to? Either that or I hit a nerve... Out of curiousity in what way does the Character of the poster invalidate/ validate what is said in the post? Because I say something that you disagree with, that makes me an alt? Your argument is imature and baseless.

Vinn
Pisov viet
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-05-26 18:30:21 UTC
Quote:
The problem with every MMO economy is that it is inherently inflationary. This is because every MMO hands out "credits" (here we call them "ISK") for performing quests ("missions" in EvE speak). Where does this currency come from? They make it out of thin air - just like the Federal Reserve, I might add, which is why a steak dinner that cost you $2 back in 1950 now costs you $40. It's not that the price of everything went up that much, rather it's the value of the money has gone down that much - which is exactly what happens when you make money out of thin air with nothing to back it up (be it commodities or labor). When you get payout for a rat bounty or mission, CCP is making ISK out of magic and handing it to you.

END THE FED
PAUL 2012
THIS IS HAPPENING
Blawrf McTaggart
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2012-05-26 18:36:44 UTC
Jessica Sweetwater wrote:
Hi

I have spent nearly a week running this over in my mind trying to figure out what this type of game play is allowed. I have researched the amount of ISK lost and looked at kills, tried to contact the players with huge losses, sumtimes his with replys of *had enuff, happend so many times, im quitting* to others saying *it's a shite game mechanic and needs to be removed*

So i then go to thinking on concord on how that would work per system to navy responce etc.

When we declare war we are put into a sub catergory of *yes you can not shoot members from this corp*. Concord has the power to do that. So my question is, in any which way does this type of grief play help the game, and make no mistake, sucide ganking is grief play. So how to stop it

In my research i have come to see that it serves no useful purpose, it does not help the market, it does not help the player base. If anything it harms the game.

So my proposed idea is that the entire mechanic of being able to fire on non aggressed pilots should be disavowed. If Concord has the technology to allow you to fire, then it has the technology to stop you.

i.e - When you target a player in a Torndao fitted for sucide ganking a hauler and you press F1 or *click* your weapons, it should flash up so

*You are not at war with this pilot or his/her corporation and and as such are unable to fire*. I know alot of pvpers who spend alot of time doing this will disagree but the damage that the mechanic is having on the game, is irriversable.

Stats

Market prices are up 50% on almost all Modules/ships
Mining in high sec has falled by 48% (industrial players are becoming scarcer)
Trade runs and delivery pilots have dropped off 72% simply because they cannot guarentee delivery
The rise in gankers is well over 40% in well populated areas and some of our miners have even tried going 10+ jumps away from market areas and are still being targeted.

This mechanic really needs to be addressed because at the current market growth and rise rate, the entire eve market will crash within a year. I work as a finance consultant and i ahve researched all of this and it is pure fact.

CCP why, may i ask, that you allow this to go on. If a market crash happens. The entire game will crash as has happend on other MMOS with player driven economy. This is one of the reasons that Warcraft is stress testing servers to mold upto ten servers into one because of constant market crashes.

I ask CCP to just CONSIDER that this game mechanic may not be in eve's best interest and that it should be sorted and removed.

Jess

No i have not been the victim of a gank, i even tested the theory on 3 Ret's to see how easy it was to gank them in 0.5/0.6 and i was able to get 3 shots of 8 faction ammo off before concord turned up. Which made concord pointless in those systems in the first place.

So why have concord at all? If you support this mechanic, have every region as 5 x safe systems and the rest null sec. Because at present. Even though EvE may be a PvP based game. If you cannot do PvE as you *promote*.

You are leaving yourself open to be sued for false advertising for one and there is no point in even having industrial ships if you cannot make money in high sec doing the VERY thing you advertise to with your very nice trailers.


the only thing that needs to be removed is your ability to post
GunslingerBob
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-05-26 18:42:19 UTC
Jessica Sweetwater wrote:


You carry on, you keep killing miners, you keep screwing high sec up and when there are no cap ships or very few on the market and t2 ship prices and t2 ammo prices have goen thru the roof and u can no longer afford to keep pvping. We will stand there, smile and say *we warned you this would happen, did you listen? No, your ego wouldnt let you*.

10k of any t2 or faction ammo - 10million ISK - Sky rocket prices.


Don't mind me, just building ships/ammo in Nullsec making double the profit your over-inflated garbage will
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-05-26 18:44:51 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
Also, lol at Hulk should be able to stand up to 2 tornados . Can a single tornado stand up to 2 tornados? But the Hulk, as a resource extraction vessel should be able to handle 2 warships? bahaha

a hulk can stand up to two tornados already, you just need to fit a dcu, invuln IIs and shield rigs instead of a second MLU and cargo rigs and leaving your midslots empty
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#93 - 2012-05-27 00:47:26 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Ludi Burek wrote:
Also, lol at Hulk should be able to stand up to 2 tornados . Can a single tornado stand up to 2 tornados? But the Hulk, as a resource extraction vessel should be able to handle 2 warships? bahaha

a hulk can stand up to two tornados already, you just need to fit a dcu, invuln IIs and shield rigs instead of a second MLU and cargo rigs and leaving your midslots empty


Yeah, but that requires fitting. I'd bet all my isk that he meant "just the hulk" Lol Or even better, the usual fail fit hulk. That's how these guys think. If he bothered to be aware or what you just posted above, he'd never have posted his "idea/demand/whatever"
RaptorXL
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-27 04:39:28 UTC
Quote:
Losing Security Status is not enough, you can get that back. Instead, ganking in hi-sec will also put a cost on the player. An ISK cost. You will be fined for your crimes of performing an unprovoked attack that is based on what exactly it was you attacked (and successfully killed). Take out a hulk worth about 300 million isk and you will owe an addition 50% of that cost to Concord as Concord itself will wardec YOU or until the fine is paid. Sending your character to live in low-sec for good as you are K.O.S. as soon as you enter a 0.5 system. This cost will never go away to the character and the only way to enter hi-sec is in a POD. The 50% payment will go directly to the player whom you killed.


I like this idea but it has a flaw. The money should not go back to the original player. This is game of risks, and you need to accept your risks and losses.

I like the idea of a K.O.S by concord status until a fine payment has been made to concord. This can be simply no bounty from ratting until the total bounty amount exceeds the fine, then bounty would resume.

But maybe it shouldn't be K.O.S by concord. Maybe it should be more K.O.S by the navy who owns the sov of the system.
Like Gank in Caldari space, and Caldari navy will openly engage you at every stargate and revoke docking rights to any caldari station since you're essentially a terrorist/criminal until your fine is paid.

That way you're still safe in other empires and you won't be actively seeked out in deadspace. Also this in a way could promote a bit of carebare factional warefare. If i'm caldari then why wouldn't i want to do raids on some gallentee space noobs.