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Open letter to CCP and the community regarding HYDRA and OB ban from ATX

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Kalvunia IV
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2012-05-26 14:30:19 UTC
Quote:

None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.

I hope this helps but it probably won't.


PL and RvB do not have a history of cheating, neither does Hydra and OB as they were well within the AT9 rules last year, as you CCP did state at the time. And Hydra and OB were not the only so called 'A and B' team, as you well know. They just happen to both as capable as the other as opposed to PL's B team.

And you state in your reply that you found it necessary to have have a conversation with PL and RvB, but it did not occur to you to have the same dialog with Hydra/OB? What is this, The Banana Bending Factory?
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#202 - 2012-05-26 14:31:16 UTC
Yeah yesterday I too was trying to find where it said both teams would get banned, but I couldn't :<
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#203 - 2012-05-26 14:31:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Intigo
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


What facts did he miss?

The part where a Senior GM concluded it was ok to practice together?

The part where other teams practiced together?

The part where CVA was confused about the rules as well and had to ask for clarification because HYDRA & Outbreak were instantly banned?

The part where you left the rules intentionally vague so you could ban teams that you had a grudge against even though they had already attempted to get clarification from the Alliance Tournament team?


You can keep pretending you were banned for "practicing together" as much as you want. That was never the case. If I wanted you out you'd never have entered. Stop being obtuse.


That may very well be, but the rules under which HYDRA & Outbreak were banned were so vague that anyone who practiced together could have been banned under them.

You clarified them after banning HYDRA & Outbreak that joining a single corp is the basis for which you are officially "ban-worthy"

Did you read the post by the CVA member yet? They were considering doing the very same thing because your rules were so vague that was impossible to tell if that was legal or not.

You have no way of saying "HYDRA & Outbreak should have seen this coming" when other teams considered doing the very same thing.

How can you justify banning HYDRA & Outbreak without any warning, without responding to any attempts at communication when other teams had considered doing the very same thing that HYDRA & Outbreak did in order to make wormhole practicing ENDURABLE?!

This goes for YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT as well. Because the rule was so vague they had no way of knowing they were breaking them - this is not exclusive to HYDRA & Outbreak's situation, it goes for every team in the tournament.

If you had seen CVA & 4th doing the same thing we did prior to banning HYDRA & Outbreak would you have banned both their teams too?

hydra provail
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#204 - 2012-05-26 14:31:47 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
IamBeastx wrote:
Until ATX secondary teams was not a rule breaker.
Correct, but read this:

CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kalvunia IV wrote:
I've read the post, and it seams to me that you implying that being part of the same Alliance on SiSi is why you concluded that Hydra/OB are working as one team. But if they had stayed separate on SiSi and done the same thing that would be alright.

You are also pointing out that you can not predict the future, I agree with you that is impossible. But I also find it impossible to read minds. As the rule about A and B teams are vague at best and reading your mind as to what constitutes "working as one team" is. Nowhere does it state that being part of the same corp on SiSi for testing and logi purposes are deemed as working as one team.

On the other part you were willing to open a dialog with both RvB and PL to make sure they did not get banned over some technicality but were unable to do so with Hydra and OB could be an oversight on your part and should be admitted and attempts should be made to amend this.


None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.

I hope this helps but it probably won't.

Here Sreegs claims he made an exclusion for RvB and PL because they were not 'cheating' previously, which is not true - in a sense if we apply new rule to previous ATs. If we don't, then Hydra/OB were not cheating either, and his claim is wrong again.


That's not what I said. Do not purposely misrepresent me. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself and the quote you quoted doesn't say what you said it does.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#205 - 2012-05-26 14:34:02 UTC
IamBeastx wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.
PL had a b-team in AT9 and probably even earlier.

They didn't **** up with finals, but it doesn't mean they were not 'cheating'.


Until ATX secondary teams was not a rule breaker.


B team also tested 100% separately from the main team. it had its own fits and tactics. it never merged 2 teams/corps/alliances into one corp and hid in a worm hole.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#206 - 2012-05-26 14:34:20 UTC
Kalvunia IV wrote:
Quote:

None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.

I hope this helps but it probably won't.


PL and RvB do not have a history of cheating, neither does Hydra and OB as they were well within the AT9 rules last year, as you CCP did state at the time. And Hydra and OB were not the only so called 'A and B' team, as you well know. They just happen to both as capable as the other as opposed to PL's B team.

And you state in your reply that you found it necessary to have have a conversation with PL and RvB, but it did not occur to you to have the same dialog with Hydra/OB? What is this, The Banana Bending Factory?


No conversation was had with PL. The conversation with RvB was about how to ensure that they were functioning properly for the tournament.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#207 - 2012-05-26 14:35:33 UTC
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


What facts did he miss?

The part where a Senior GM concluded it was ok to practice together?

The part where other teams practiced together?

The part where CVA was confused about the rules as well and had to ask for clarification because HYDRA & Outbreak were instantly banned?

The part where you left the rules intentionally vague so you could ban teams that you had a grudge against even though they had already attempted to get clarification from the Alliance Tournament team?


You can keep pretending you were banned for "practicing together" as much as you want. That was never the case. If I wanted you out you'd never have entered. Stop being obtuse.


That may very well be, but the rules under which HYDRA & Outbreak were banned were so vague that anyone who practiced together could have been banned under them.

You clarified them after banning HYDRA & Outbreak that joining a single corp is the basis for which you are officially "ban-worthy"

Did you read the post by the CVA member yet? They were considering doing the very same thing because your rules were so vague that was impossible to tell if that was legal or not.

You have no way of saying "HYDRA & Outbreak should have seen this coming" when other teams considered doing the very same thing.

How can you justify banning HYDRA & Outbreak without any warning, without responding to any attempts at communication when other teams had considered doing the very same thing that HYDRA & Outbreak did in order to make wormhole practicing ENDURABLE?!

This goes for YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT as well. Because the rule was so vague they had no way of knowing they were breaking them - this is not exclusive to HYDRA & Outbreak's situation, it goes for every team in the tournament.

If you had seen CVA & 4th doing the same thing we did prior to banning HYDRA & Outbreak would you have banned both their teams too?


Keep grasping buddy eventually you'll find something that sticks and we'll let you back in. Honest.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#208 - 2012-05-26 14:36:17 UTC
Tappits wrote:
IamBeastx wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.
PL had a b-team in AT9 and probably even earlier.

They didn't **** up with finals, but it doesn't mean they were not 'cheating'.


Until ATX secondary teams was not a rule breaker.


B team also tested 100% separately from the main team. it had its own fits and tactics. it never merged 2 teams/corps/alliances into one corp and hid in a worm hole.


It's a good thing that CCP clarified that joining the same corp was not allowed, but practicing together is.

The fact that the rule is so vague is the very reason that CVA & 4th were confused. They had considered doing the very same thing before HYDRA & Outbreak were banned.

Do you think Sreegs would have instantly banned their teams too?

hydra provail
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#209 - 2012-05-26 14:36:58 UTC
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


What facts did he miss?

The part where a Senior GM concluded it was ok to practice together?

The part where other teams practiced together?

The part where CVA was confused about the rules as well and had to ask for clarification because HYDRA & Outbreak were instantly banned?

The part where you left the rules intentionally vague so you could ban teams that you had a grudge against even though they had already attempted to get clarification from the Alliance Tournament team?


You can keep pretending you were banned for "practicing together" as much as you want. That was never the case. If I wanted you out you'd never have entered. Stop being obtuse.


That may very well be, but the rules under which HYDRA & Outbreak were banned were so vague that anyone who practiced together could have been banned under them.

You clarified them after banning HYDRA & Outbreak that joining a single corp is the basis for which you are officially "ban-worthy"

Did you read the post by the CVA member yet? They were considering doing the very same thing because your rules were so vague that was impossible to tell if that was legal or not.

You have no way of saying "HYDRA & Outbreak should have seen this coming" when other teams considered doing the very same thing.

How can you justify banning HYDRA & Outbreak without any warning, without responding to any attempts at communication when other teams had considered doing the very same thing that HYDRA & Outbreak did in order to make wormhole practicing ENDURABLE?!

This goes for YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT as well. Because the rule was so vague they had no way of knowing they were breaking them - this is not exclusive to HYDRA & Outbreak's situation, it goes for every team in the tournament.

If you had seen CVA & 4th doing the same thing we did prior to banning HYDRA & Outbreak would you have banned both their teams too?


I'd recommend checking the sticky threads for your answer.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2012-05-26 14:37:36 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Keep grasping buddy eventually you'll find something that sticks and we'll let you back in. Honest.


How am I grasping? I presented some questions to you that you chose to ignore (a fairly common trend, with the Alliance Tournament team, it would appear).

How can you justify banning HYDRA & Outbreak without any warning, without responding to any attempts at communication when other teams had considered doing the very same thing that HYDRA & Outbreak did in order to make wormhole practicing ENDURABLE?!

Did you read the CVA thread yet?

hydra provail
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#211 - 2012-05-26 14:38:30 UTC
Intigo wrote:
Tappits wrote:
IamBeastx wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.
PL had a b-team in AT9 and probably even earlier.

They didn't **** up with finals, but it doesn't mean they were not 'cheating'.


Until ATX secondary teams was not a rule breaker.


B team also tested 100% separately from the main team. it had its own fits and tactics. it never merged 2 teams/corps/alliances into one corp and hid in a worm hole.


It's a good thing that CCP clarified that joining the same corp was not allowed, but practicing together is.

The fact that the rule is so vague is the very reason that CVA & 4th were confused. They had considered doing the very same thing before HYDRA & Outbreak were banned.

Do you think Sreegs would have instantly banned their teams too?


Yes let's conjecture since reality isn't working.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#212 - 2012-05-26 14:39:13 UTC
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Keep grasping buddy eventually you'll find something that sticks and we'll let you back in. Honest.


How am I grasping? I presented some questions to you that you chose to ignore (a fairly common trend, with the Alliance Tournament team, it would appear).

How can you justify banning HYDRA & Outbreak without any warning, without responding to any attempts at communication when other teams had considered doing the very same thing that HYDRA & Outbreak did in order to make wormhole practicing ENDURABLE?!

Did you read the CVA thread yet?


Do you maybe speak Spanish? How do I say "Read the stickies" in Spanish? Someone help this guy out.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
IamBeastx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2012-05-26 14:41:23 UTC
Intigo wrote:


It's a good thing that CCP clarified that joining the same corp was not allowed, but practicing together is.

The fact that the rule is so vague is the very reason that CVA & 4th were confused. They had considered doing the very same thing before HYDRA & Outbreak were banned.

Do you think Sreegs would have instantly banned their teams too?


Don't confuse my posts with anything other than replies related to previous tournies, go back a bit further and you'll see i do not agree with the complete ban, even the rules previously posted don't mention A-Teams being banned for having b,c, etc teams

All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#214 - 2012-05-26 14:43:09 UTC
IamBeastx wrote:
Intigo wrote:


It's a good thing that CCP clarified that joining the same corp was not allowed, but practicing together is.

The fact that the rule is so vague is the very reason that CVA & 4th were confused. They had considered doing the very same thing before HYDRA & Outbreak were banned.

Do you think Sreegs would have instantly banned their teams too?


Don't confuse my posts with anything other than replies related to previous tournies, go back a bit further and you'll see i do not agree with the complete ban, even the rules previously posted don't mention A-Teams being banned for having b,c, etc teams


We did mention it somewhere it just really isn't worth my time digging it up for people who won't be participating in this year's alliance tournament.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#215 - 2012-05-26 14:51:51 UTC
It's alright Sreegs, it's clear that trying to come to a resolution that allowed the defending champions to participate was never a priority for you.

Maintaining a high level of competitiveness for the tournament was never a priority for you.

Dealing with the situation professionally was never a priority for you.

We've wanted to believe that this was a misunderstanding on your end so we tried to post clarification and come to a resolution.

We were wrong however, the misunderstanding is on our end. You never intended for us to participate in the tournament to begin with. If you had you would've talked to us as you talked to others before taking action.

We've come to accept this now.

Enjoy your tournament.

.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#216 - 2012-05-26 14:52:28 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


The first point could be false, however the following still stands:

0utbreak, Hydra etc. sent emails to that email address with queries about the Alliance Tournament. At this point, two things happened:

i) You read those emails and thought about what to do with them OR
ii) You didn't read them.

Since other teams have revealed that they've sent in their own queries and that they've been answered, it's pretty clear that those emails have been read and that you deliberately chose not to respond to 0utbreak/Hydra's queries.

By refusing to communicate with them, you knew that they would continue along this road and that you would have to ban them from the tournament.

If your primary concern was to make this tournament as good as possible, you would want them in the tournament. Why? They are in the highest "tier" of tournament teams - they have ISK, they have experience, they have skillpoints and they have teamwork. Most teams only have 1-2, some with 3. Not many have all 4.

But, you didn't want them in the tournament. Your feelings regarding last year's final ruled supreme over your desire to make this the best alliance tournament ever.

Do I think you shouldn't host the AT? No, you obviously have a passion for it otherwise you wouldn't be replying about it on a Saturday afternoon when I presume you're off the clock. And the improvements to ship points/team sizes etc. should shake it up quite nicely, with more gank orientated setups which are more fun to watch than the logi orientated setups.

Just admit that you had a lapse of judgement and for the greater good will allow them to submit a joint team and most of this will go away.

As for deleting posts? Compare and contrast https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113748 with http://eve-search.com/thread/113748-1.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#217 - 2012-05-26 14:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Sreegs
Duncan Tanner wrote:
It's alright Sreegs, it's clear that trying to come to a resolution that allowed the defending champions to participate was never a priority for you.

Maintaining a high level of competitiveness for the tournament was never a priority for you.

Dealing with the situation professionally was never a priority for you.

We've wanted to believe that this was a misunderstanding on your end so we tried to post clarification and come to a resolution.

We were wrong however, the misunderstanding is on our end. You never intended for us to participate in the tournament to begin with. If you had you would've talked to us as you talked to others before taking action.

We've come to accept this now.

Enjoy your tournament.


Everyone will, thanks!

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
carbomb
Super Team Munkey
#218 - 2012-05-26 14:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: carbomb
CCP Sreegs wrote:
[

None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.

I hope this helps but it probably won't.




I'm Sorry, where did it say that what happend in AT9 was against the rules? No rules were broken! therefore they can not be regarded as "cheats" for it.

What would probably end all this posting is an admission from sreegs and co that basically this is them hitting back at last years finalists out of spite. You outmetagamed the metagamers and fair play ccp, you did it well. Just admit that this is payback and this matter will be closed. Its pretty pathetic how you are behaving. Most people can see that this was your attempt at revenge. You really are a bunch of kids at times. You made mistakes, you tried cover them up. admit your wrong doings and move along. By the way, If one of my employee's spoke to my customers the way you do to yours you would be out on your ear! Show some professionalism, man.

also love how you hung the Senior GM who responded to Hydra/0utbreak out to dry to cover you behinds. Smooth!
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2012-05-26 14:57:21 UTC
Even a simpleton can easily why they went off together for the sake of convenience.
And if you're a bit serious about winning, like Hydra & outbreak are.
You go practice in a wormhole.

They only need 1 corp.
They can train against worthy adversaries.
Fleet finder is a nifty handy tool when you can just tick "corporation".

And there's this super awesome feature introduced (after being pushed by an elected official of the playerbase, TwoStep) called Corporation Bookmarks.

As wormhole dwelling resident, I can tell you this one was a lifechanger.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#220 - 2012-05-26 14:57:43 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


The first point could be false, however the following still stands:

0utbreak, Hydra etc. sent emails to that email address with queries about the Alliance Tournament. At this point, two things happened:

i) You read those emails and thought about what to do with them OR
ii) You didn't read them.

Since other teams have revealed that they've sent in their own queries and that they've been answered, it's pretty clear that those emails have been read and that you deliberately chose not to respond to 0utbreak/Hydra's queries.

By refusing to communicate with them, you knew that they would continue along this road and that you would have to ban them from the tournament.

If your primary concern was to make this tournament as good as possible, you would want them in the tournament. Why? They are in the highest "tier" of tournament teams - they have ISK, they have experience, they have skillpoints and they have teamwork. Most teams only have 1-2, some with 3. Not many have all 4.

But, you didn't want them in the tournament. Your feelings regarding last year's final ruled supreme over your desire to make this the best alliance tournament ever.

Do I think you shouldn't host the AT? No, you obviously have a passion for it otherwise you wouldn't be replying about it on a Saturday afternoon when I presume you're off the clock. And the improvements to ship points/team sizes etc. should shake it up quite nicely, with more gank orientated setups which are more fun to watch than the logi orientated setups.

Just admit that you had a lapse of judgement and for the greater good will allow them to submit a joint team and most of this will go away.

As for deleting posts? Compare and contrast https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=113748 with http://eve-search.com/thread/113748-1.


I don't delete posts nor have I asked for any to be deleted. Please don't say what I did or didn't know. I'm not a psychic and neither are you. The email sent is irrelevant as I've already pointed out and I'm tired of explaining that. I'm also tired of explaining that how good someone is doesn't have any bearing on the rules or how they're applied.

I'm also tired of explaining that if I didn't want them in the tournament they wouldn't have been able to apply.

I know it all seems pretty simple when I write that but that's because it is.

You won't be seeing Hydra or Outbreak in this tournament in any form as per the stickies. I already said that as well.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012