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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Open letter to CCP and the community regarding HYDRA and OB ban from ATX

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Kalvunia IV
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2012-05-26 13:10:47 UTC
Makkz wrote:


all of the letters almost constantly refer to the hydra/OB group as a "we".


Semantics is not proof of guilt in my book.
Suleiman Shouaa
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#182 - 2012-05-26 13:20:25 UTC
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:
ZONK DONKEY
Incestuous Cult of Paranoid Swamp People
#183 - 2012-05-26 13:25:55 UTC
I think the biggest problem here is that the Alliance tournament means so much to Hydra and Outbreak.

It's all they live for all year. This creates a problem, because they're no longer out there to fight the big wars, to make it mean something. I remember back when Outbreak used try and make it big, make the headlines; now they just to petty skirmishes

Unfortunately for the rest of the game, the prizes are so exclusive, while the measly tournament as a whole means so little to the whole EVE ecosystem.

The Alliance tournament to me, feels like:

1. Just a PR stunt
2. Something out of a theme park MMO, the Devs create and manage all content and rules so that everyone gets a fair go and all is fair.

EVE isn't supposed to be fair. Give the power back to the people, let the people organise the Alliance tournament, or have the people elect those who organise it, just like the CSM. Or cancel next year's one altogether, it's not a sandbox experience, it doesn't really need to exist any more. Or drastically reduce the prizes to something like a statue and some PLEXes and their names on a wall or something.

This tournament affects too much for something so (in contrast to other events in the game), petty.


I'm not hating on you guys, but if all year round, this is all Hydra and Outbreak live for any more, then I'm sorry, but your presence in New Eden is meaningless
iLLeLogicaL
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2012-05-26 13:27:35 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You are correct that was enforcement of the rules. So close!

To go further, I still have to see the rule where it says A-teams will also be banned.
You never mention that you will also disqualify A-teams.
IamBeastx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-05-26 13:39:01 UTC
Hmmm

Attempt to stop ''B'' team metagaming, thats ok with me, leads to better pewpew imo whilst still allowing the other forms of tournament metagaming.

Forcibly stop one 'group' from entering multiple teams, thats cool too.

Ban that same group from entering completely, bearing in mind they are the previous winners, well known pvpers and a good team, not good, we want the best pvp teams, not 'the best of the rest'.


On another note, waffles (sniggwaffe) would LOVE to kick PL's ass in the tourney, seriously, no quarter would be given by either side.

We're too busy with D3, DayZ and continous BF3 Ownag3 to seriously contend in the tourney.

All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific.
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#186 - 2012-05-26 13:54:25 UTC
Seriously what did you expect? You killed the AT IX Finals for everyone with your multiteam strategy. It sucked!! It really really sucked!! And now you try to do it again and got caught.

If they had not removed you both we would see twice the amount of treads whining about why they let you both participate again and i would start the first one!

Whine more! I hope they don't get soft and change that decision!

And to all the people that try to argument with the sandbox. Confused much? This is an event not TQ, so as long as you can't get jumped with blob of supercaps during the match this has absolutely nothing to do with the sandbox. It is for entertainment and people like Hydra/Outbreak that ruin the experience for everyone else should be removed.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#187 - 2012-05-26 14:03:02 UTC
Where is the rule that you can be banned for being in same corp/alliance on the test server... what happens on the test server has never before affected what happened on the real server... so that reason alone is very bad

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Donedy
Lulzsec Space
#188 - 2012-05-26 14:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Donedy
Why PL is not banned from AT X like Outbreak/Hydra considering they were team A of sniggwaffe?

Is that CCP make their rules a mess or I missed something?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#189 - 2012-05-26 14:11:06 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Klown Walk wrote:
Why didn´t anyone from the AT team respond to any email from them? or give them a warning instead of instantly removing them?


hi you seem to have missed the part where the email was posted but wasn't actually what was going on so responding to that email wouldn't have changed a thing I hope this helps.


Can you please refer me to the topic where the rules that are subject to change* got changed, and publicly announced that the A-team would also get banned.

Because I will quote the rules as they're on the AT community website right now.
Quote:
Rules

Tournament Rules

This is a three stage tournament, with 64 alliances allowed to enter.
There will be two pre-qualifying rounds, followed by a 32 team group stage and a 16 team final day.
All competing pilots must have been members of the alliance for which they are competing, and be a member of that Alliance by downtime on May, 05, 2012.
All alliance members are eligible to compete in any match in which their alliance is taking part, subject to all applicable rules; teams do not have to remain the same between games.
To ensure that all Alliances get a fair opportunity to participate we will be checking on team entries and will disqualify teams who we consider to be 'B' or 'C' teams for bigger Alliances.


And your post where you ban Hydra and Outbreak from entering is not a public announcement of a changed rule.


You are correct that was enforcement of the rules. So close!

You're probably the biggest troll of us all Sreegs.
But the only thing you did was crush my expectation to see how Hydra was going to fare in this new AT.

Genuinly dissappointed with CCP in general now. I can't believe how happy I was when crucible got released.
And now it's back to ye olde CCP with no regards for playerbase, unified inventory being the perfect example from that.

Thank you for ruining my viewing pleasure of ATX, and taking out what probably would have been the most fun fights to watch.


I'm pretty sure I usually blame the people responsible for wrongdoing when I get mad. I don't blame the prison. Hopefully this helps point your anger in the right direction.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#190 - 2012-05-26 14:13:27 UTC
Kalvunia IV wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Edenmain wrote:


Fair enough, but CCP.... Don'y you dare refer to EVE as a sandbox ever again, because it's clearly not... Well at least one that's raked flat by you whenever you feel the need.


The alliance tournament has never been a sandbox and by nature never will or can be. We make rules that specifically make it not a sandbox. When those rules aren't followed we enforce them. I'm sorry if you're confusing The Alliance Tournament Rules with the overall premise of the spaceship videogame EVE Online, but the fact remains that the sandbox mentality has never applied to the tournament. Except perhaps when it is convenient to forum posters who are mad.


But sisi has it own set of rules, and nowhere in the alliance rules did you state that these rules apply on sisi.
In court here you would have nothing to stand on and this case would be dismissed on case of techniquality.

You can however still win back a few of your playerbase by making it right, by letting one of them participate.

But instead what you did, send a half assed reply and then when they can not do anything more to please you.
You say, but you did something wrong and for that you get banned from participating in ATX.

Instead of saying right from the start, It's either hydra or outbreak but not both.


Please tell me more about court I've never been in one.

:edit: As per the post you quoted sisi's rules weren't what they were banned for. The tournament rules are. I don't understand why this appears so hard to follow.


I've read the post, and it seams to me that you implying that being part of the same Alliance on SiSi is why you concluded that Hydra/OB are working as one team. But if they had stayed separate on SiSi and done the same thing that would be alright.

You are also pointing out that you can not predict the future, I agree with you that is impossible. But I also find it impossible to read minds. As the rule about A and B teams are vague at best and reading your mind as to what constitutes "working as one team" is. Nowhere does it state that being part of the same corp on SiSi for testing and logi purposes are deemed as working as one team.

On the other part you were willing to open a dialog with both RvB and PL to make sure they did not get banned over some technicality but were unable to do so with Hydra and OB could be an oversight on your part and should be admitted and attempts should be made to amend this.


None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.

I hope this helps but it probably won't.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#191 - 2012-05-26 14:14:23 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
And Sreegs did you read this article: http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/05/24/internet-spaceships-are-serious-business

It was posted on EvE Online's Facebook a few days ago.
When I read that article I thought that's exactly what eve is like and that makes it unique.

I don't know if it was your sole decision to ban Hydra/OB, or if other people were involved in the making.
But I bet you were one of the higher ups in that equasion, and choices like the one made here.

What were you thinking?

Banning both teams instead of one, such choices make noone happy but the worst of trolls (and goonplayers somehow).

I like EVE very much, because there is no other MMO out there that keeps fascinating me this much.
But sometimes I think, you guys don't know what your doing.

It just makes no sense to any logical, objective, observant.


You can read my explanation in the stickied posts above. If that doesn't make sense to any logical, objective, or observant, whatever those are, then I apologize.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#192 - 2012-05-26 14:15:32 UTC
Makkz wrote:
They didn't need to open a dialogue, they had plenty of evidence provided by the people involved, proving they were working together.

AT isn't EVE that has been true since its conception, CCP had evidence proving that Hydra and ally were doing exactly what happened last year, all of the letters almost constantly refer to the hydra/OB group as a "we".

As put before I'm with many that ATX will miss hydra they truly are top notch pvpers, of the highest caliber, but they were clearly breaking the rules that were brought in because of there actions last year, I think this tiny pre 20 page thread shows that this is NOT that big a deal to the majority of EVE players, its definitely no threadnaught.


If you remove Hydra and outbreak from this forum there are less threads and this one is pretty tiny... oh it doesn't exist either.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#193 - 2012-05-26 14:17:03 UTC
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#194 - 2012-05-26 14:18:27 UTC
iLLeLogicaL wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

You are correct that was enforcement of the rules. So close!

To go further, I still have to see the rule where it says A-teams will also be banned.
You never mention that you will also disqualify A-teams.


Try reading the rule because we actually said we'd ban both teams.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#195 - 2012-05-26 14:22:41 UTC
IamBeastx wrote:
Hmmm

Attempt to stop ''B'' team metagaming, thats ok with me, leads to better pewpew imo whilst still allowing the other forms of tournament metagaming.

Forcibly stop one 'group' from entering multiple teams, thats cool too.

Ban that same group from entering completely, bearing in mind they are the previous winners, well known pvpers and a good team, not good, we want the best pvp teams, not 'the best of the rest'.


On another note, waffles (sniggwaffe) would LOVE to kick PL's ass in the tourney, seriously, no quarter would be given by either side.

We're too busy with D3, DayZ and continous BF3 Ownag3 to seriously contend in the tourney.


You missed the part where how good they are at spaceships don't exempt them from the rules.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#196 - 2012-05-26 14:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
CCP Sreegs wrote:
None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.
PL had a b-team in AT9 and probably even earlier. During at9 they probably had even c-team, can't really remember.

They didn't **** up with finals, but it doesn't mean they were not 'cheating'. They were defeated mid-way before public could realize they had b-/c- teams.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2012-05-26 14:22:48 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


What facts did he miss?

The part where a Senior GM concluded it was ok to practice together?

The part where other teams practiced together?

The part where CVA was confused about the rules as well and had to ask for clarification because HYDRA & Outbreak were instantly banned?

The part where you left the rules intentionally vague so you could ban teams that you had a grudge against even though they had already attempted to get clarification from the Alliance Tournament team?

hydra provail
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#198 - 2012-05-26 14:23:53 UTC
Bubanni wrote:
Where is the rule that you can be banned for being in same corp/alliance on the test server... what happens on the test server has never before affected what happened on the real server... so that reason alone is very bad


Read the stickies you seem to have missed them.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
IamBeastx
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2012-05-26 14:24:59 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
None of those teams had a history of cheating using the exact same methods they were using again this year. Were we not to have to enforce these new rules a conversation with PL or RvB wouldn't have been necessary because those teams would have been in.
PL had a b-team in AT9 and probably even earlier.

They didn't **** up with finals, but it doesn't mean they were not 'cheating'.


Until ATX secondary teams was not a rule breaker.

All my life i wanted to be someone, now i know i should have been more specific.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#200 - 2012-05-26 14:25:00 UTC
Intigo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Suleiman Shouaa wrote:
CCP still mad due to AT IX Final (despite the semi-finals being better than most finals).
CCP staff who are dedicated to the AT chose not to respond to Hydra's emails, despite responding to other emails from other teams.
CCP bans 0utbreak/Genos, despite them having all the time in the world to tell them to knock it off if they actually wanted them in the tournament (ie. greater good for all the viewers).
CCP starts deleting posts on forums related to this

:shocker:


If you're going to post a timeline insert facts. Don't misrepresent me or the team purposely. That doesn't look like a request because it isn't.


What facts did he miss?

The part where a Senior GM concluded it was ok to practice together?

The part where other teams practiced together?

The part where CVA was confused about the rules as well and had to ask for clarification because HYDRA & Outbreak were instantly banned?

The part where you left the rules intentionally vague so you could ban teams that you had a grudge against even though they had already attempted to get clarification from the Alliance Tournament team?


You can keep pretending you were banned for "practicing together" as much as you want. That was never the case. If I wanted you out you'd never have entered. Stop being obtuse.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012