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Removing Local is only part of the solution
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Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#41 - 2012-05-25 20:23:26 UTC
Quote:
Charges on a cloaking device would make them worthless..for tasks of recon where you have to fly solo 26 to 50 jumps just to get into place. Fuel has always been problematic for ships that depend on a cloaked return trip... the cargo hold on covert ops ships is diminutive at best.


Don't assume everthing would stay the same as they are right now. Cargo holds and fuel sized could be tinkered with to match the new reality.

Quote:
You are forgetting a whole dimension of benefit to the "prey". They also benefit from the uncertainty generated by lack of free intel. They have the ability to cloak their defenses and lay wait.


Actually, that's precisely the problem. Currently everyone knows almost everything. Instantly. Let's try to add in some uncertainty in this equasion

Quote:
The afk are no threat to anyone.... and don't even effect the game if you don't know they are there.


Okay, this response is as stupid as it is incorrect. You cannot prove that a person in Local and cloaked is afk or not. You can't. That means that Prey must assume for their own safety that the 'afk-cloaker' is not afk. It follows then that there is no such thing as an 'afk-cloaker', as all cloakers are assumed to be at the keyboard, and therefore a threat. A threat that has no counter.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#42 - 2012-05-25 20:26:52 UTC
Some great thoughts and criticisms so far, and not nearly as much flaming as I expected.

An amendment based on the criticism:

Make scanning probes able to give ship types regardless of scan strength. Or make it dependent on skill. A pilot with basic scanning skills gets ship types at 70% resolution say, and someone with advanced scanning skills sees them at 40%. This gives you more of a local-like ability but have it still require user input.

The early warning system would also increase a ships signature radius, making it easier (i.e. less time) to locate.

Remove D-Scan as a mechanic (just in case that wasn't clear earlier)

Finally, let's stay on topic here. This thread isn't intended to be a 'should we remove local' thread. Instead, let's proceed under the presumption that CCP has announced that they are removing local and are looking for ideas on what to replace it with.

I think it can be agreed on that WH space is a good example that Local is not a requirement for Eve, and that its removal is not detrimental. What merely needs to be answered is, what replaces Local once it is removed?

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-05-25 20:33:37 UTC
sounds like someone got butt hurt with no lube. Do not worry blood is an all natural lubricant. and whining about the removal of local if you hate so much go live in a Worm Hole
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-05-25 20:37:57 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
sounds like someone got butt hurt with no lube. Do not worry blood is an all natural lubricant. and whining about the removal of local if you hate so much go live in a Worm Hole

agreed to the fullest amount possible there lol

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-05-25 22:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

I think it can be agreed on that WH space is a good example that Local is not a requirement for Eve, and that its removal is not detrimental. What merely needs to be answered is, what replaces Local once it is removed?


You cant say that. Wh space is far less travelled and harder to find than a normal system. For starters you need to scan like crazy with so many signatures. Wh is far more safer than any 0.0 system by a looooong shot. There is simply no comparison.
If you want no local, go to wh.
People still die on daily basis all around 0.0. As far as i am concerned, local works as intended.
Besides how are you suppose to see them if they logon in your system and they insta cloak? You will never know they are there since you never saw them jumping through a gate. This whole idea is nonsence, has too many exploits and belongs in the bin along with all the other bad ideas.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-05-25 22:48:03 UTC
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-05-25 22:48:43 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

I think it can be agreed on that WH space is a good example that Local is not a requirement for Eve, and that its removal is not detrimental. What merely needs to be answered is, what replaces Local once it is removed?


You cant say that. Wh space is far less travelled and harder to find than a normal system. For starters you need to scan like crazy with so many signatures. Wh is far more safer than any 0.0 system by a looooong shot. There is simply no comparison.
If you want no local, go to wh.
People still die on daily basis all around 0.0. As far as i am concerned, local works as intended.
Besides how are you suppose to see them if they logon in your system and they insta cloak? YOu will never know they are there since you never saw thm jumping through a gate. This whole idea is nonsence and belongs in the bin along with all the other bad ideas.

agreed it would if anything dappen kills in null taking local away because you would have to have scouts probeing all the time to know someone there on defence side n have to probe every time as offense which takes 1 ship out of fighting

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-05-25 22:49:45 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?

WH's are quiet depending on the ones you go to, null sec is usually allways hot and high sec is just a "tutorial island" so to speak its damn hard to die in high lol

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-25 22:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Lord Zim wrote:
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?


you know damn well you cant even compare it. How often do you hear someone snatches a wh from another? Now how often do you see someone snatching a system from another. Its so off the scale that you cant compare them. Thats even without mentioning sov module, reinforcement etc...Roll To compare these, its just a troll with a bad taste
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-25 22:53:35 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?


you know damn well you cant even compare it. How often do you hear someone snatches a wh from another? Now how often do you see someone snatching a system from another. Its so off the scale that you cant compare them. Thats even without mentioning sov module, reinforcement etc...Roll To compare these, its just a a troll with a bad taste

+1

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-05-25 23:03:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Snow Burst wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

I think it can be agreed on that WH space is a good example that Local is not a requirement for Eve, and that its removal is not detrimental. What merely needs to be answered is, what replaces Local once it is removed?


You cant say that. Wh space is far less travelled and harder to find than a normal system. For starters you need to scan like crazy with so many signatures. Wh is far more safer than any 0.0 system by a looooong shot. There is simply no comparison.
If you want no local, go to wh.
People still die on daily basis all around 0.0. As far as i am concerned, local works as intended.
Besides how are you suppose to see them if they logon in your system and they insta cloak? YOu will never know they are there since you never saw thm jumping through a gate. This whole idea is nonsence and belongs in the bin along with all the other bad ideas.

agreed it would if anything dappen kills in null taking local away because you would have to have scouts probeing all the time to know someone there on defence side n have to probe every time as offense which takes 1 ship out of fighting


no. you simply cant probe them, you cant see them, you cant scan them cos they a cloaked. Its just afk cloak on a Super OP level. If th cloaker was already in system, then you will never know he is there. He can even logoff and relog and you still wont know cos he can insta cloak.
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-05-25 23:16:23 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
Snow Burst wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Ditra Vorthran wrote:

I think it can be agreed on that WH space is a good example that Local is not a requirement for Eve, and that its removal is not detrimental. What merely needs to be answered is, what replaces Local once it is removed?


You cant say that. Wh space is far less travelled and harder to find than a normal system. For starters you need to scan like crazy with so many signatures. Wh is far more safer than any 0.0 system by a looooong shot. There is simply no comparison.
If you want no local, go to wh.
People still die on daily basis all around 0.0. As far as i am concerned, local works as intended.
Besides how are you suppose to see them if they logon in your system and they insta cloak? YOu will never know they are there since you never saw thm jumping through a gate. This whole idea is nonsence and belongs in the bin along with all the other bad ideas.

agreed it would if anything dappen kills in null taking local away because you would have to have scouts probeing all the time to know someone there on defence side n have to probe every time as offense which takes 1 ship out of fighting


no. you simply cant probe them, you cant see them, you cant scan them cos they a cloaked. Its just afk cloak on a Super OP level. If th cloaker was already in system, then you will never know he is there. He can even logoff and relog and you still wont know cos he can insta cloak.

ah, hence why local removal would be such a **** move tbh

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#53 - 2012-05-25 23:18:27 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
sounds like someone got butt hurt with no lube. Do not worry blood is an all natural lubricant. and whining about the removal of local if you hate so much go live in a Worm Hole

Heh ^___^
What about ore canflipped from a miner?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-05-25 23:19:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
sounds like someone got butt hurt with no lube. Do not worry blood is an all natural lubricant. and whining about the removal of local if you hate so much go live in a Worm Hole

Heh ^___^
What about ore canflipped from a miner?

rofl can flipping is so laborious but ******* hilarious when someone falls for it

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-05-25 23:20:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
sounds like someone got butt hurt with no lube. Do not worry blood is an all natural lubricant. and whining about the removal of local if you hate so much go live in a Worm Hole

Heh ^___^
What about ore canflipped from a miner?


i must admit, i have never +1 a goon before. Here you go!
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-05-26 02:06:21 UTC
Aerich e'Kieron wrote:
Quote:

If you remove local, less people will go to null sec, the people you prey on. Less people will be 'out and about' doing their day to day stuff. PvP will be harder and take longer to find.


and this

Quote:

Formup an 6-10 man roaming gang to go hunting for another 6-10 man roaming gang. Every system you go into, you need to drop probes.


Explain to me please, how that is -not- incentive for the "prey" to be there.
There are other points to be made in regards to a removed local, but do I even have to explain how that isn't logical?


It's too good. In fact, it's so good that it is of detriment to both parties.
The prey know too soon and easily of a threat. And thus they are able to warp off, cloak, dock, whatever.
The predators know too soon and easily that a potential target is in system. And thus can relatively quickly make their way through many systems in search of the prey.

Regardless of your opinion on a potential solution for this, can we not agree that the situation as-is, is not ideal? And that both the hunter and the hunted will need to give up some of the functionality of this in order facilitate a better system?
The proper solution to this will inherently have pros and cons for both types of people involved.

You can spot the eventualities of the system as it is. It's no wonder people complain about afk-cloakers, and it's no wonder people complain about local being overpowered.

-People using the system want security, and local chat gives them that. So much so, that they can effectively reason it's better to not bother ratting or mining while some unknown threat is in system.

-The afk-cloakers are a counter to the powerful ability of local chat.

The outcome ends in a stalemate that no-one enjoys.

Unfortunately, both parties will need to relinquish something in order for things to improve.
"Prey" will need to cope with a system that is not as reliable and will need to take more risk in their activities.
"Predators" will have to deal with a far greater amount of time spent in search of the "prey".

Basically, removing local can potentially work. Although some kinks with the abilities of covert ops combats ships may need to be hammered out.


ALSO, you can use this measure to figure out what type of player a person is based on their position on this issue!



The only solution is that local is delayed until you decloak.

That's really the best one. But the mentally challenged of EVE think removing it is a good idea, it's not. It's just bad and dumb.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-05-26 03:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
*DELETED FOR ERRORS*
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-05-26 03:26:06 UTC
Snow Burst wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?

WH's are quiet depending on the ones you go to, null sec is usually allways hot and high sec is just a "tutorial island" so to speak its damn hard to die in high lol


The vast majority of ship deaths occur in high. LOL.

You are an idiot.
Snow Burst
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-26 03:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Burst
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Snow Burst wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
If nullsec is safer than hisec, and wormholes are safer than nullsec, just how safe does that make wormholes on the WoW-o-meter?

WH's are quiet depending on the ones you go to, null sec is usually allways hot and high sec is just a "tutorial island" so to speak its damn hard to die in high lol


The vast majority of ship deaths occur in high. LOL.

You are an idiot.

only cuz of ******** idiots. if you know what your doing high is safe. you obv die in high if you think its dangerous. also interesting employment history... never been in a corp and therefore never been in nullsec properly... n if your commenting on an alt then thats pretty stupid making bold comments on an alt

There Is A 90% Chance All Of What You Just Read Is Wrong, Inaccurate Or Just Me Being Controversial In Some Way. Or By Some Chance It's Completely Right In Every Way... At Least To Me :3
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#60 - 2012-05-26 03:46:35 UTC
Snow Burst wrote:
only cuz of ******** idiots. if you know what your doing high is safe. you obv die in high if you think its dangerous. also interesting employment history... never been in a corp and therefore never been in nullsec properly... n if your commenting on an alt then thats pretty stupid making bold comments on an alt

Forum alts are the thing nowadays. You can be a XXYY without having to prove it because your 2012 NPC corp alt is all the proof you need !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?