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Stock Exchange , Bonds , OCD , More economical dynamics for New Eden
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Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#21 - 2012-05-25 17:19:06 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Stock Exchange does exist in EVE but its out of game and run by a player Block Ukx whos been involved with the MD forums for along time.

Link to stock exchnage below. Where you can buy and sell stocks in companies in EVE.

http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/home/index.php



Block Ukx is a partial solution, but it's still entirely based on trust. Players send him their ISK, and he provides an interface between investments and investors.

The inherent problem, which I don't see being resolved, is that Corporations in Eve don't own assets. Characters do.

The only way Corporations could have inherent value, and thus stock value, would be to lock down assets in such a way that no members have the power to take possession of them. Unfortunately, blueprints are the only assets in the game that are productive when locked down, so beyond that there's really no point.
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-05-25 17:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: SetrakDark
Durin Sarga wrote:
Does that make sense a bit?


Absolutely.

The main point I keep parroting on here is to shape your innovations with the actual mechanics and incentives of Eve in mind instead of trying to mirror what you see in the real world. Much of the discussions of "innovation" on here are just people making cheap cargo cult copies of what they see in the real world. These are easy to knock out in theory because everyone thinks they understand how they work, but then they quickly fall apart in practice when faced with the realities of social interaction in Eve.

If people really want to create an interesting and compelling knowledge community out of the market discussions subforum, then they need to get over the mirroring and start serious discussions about the nature of social interaction in Eve, the progress so far in organizations and collective action, and where we might be able to go from here.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#23 - 2012-05-25 18:23:31 UTC
SetrakDark wrote:
Durin Sarga wrote:
Does that make sense a bit?


Absolutely.

The main point I keep parroting on here is to shape your innovations with the actual mechanics and incentives of Eve in mind instead of trying to mirror what you see in the real world. Much of the discussions of "innovation" on here are just people making cheap cargo cult copies of what they see in the real world. These are easy to knock out in theory because everyone thinks they understand how they work, but then they quickly fall apart in practice when faced with the realities of social interaction in Eve.

If people really want to create an interesting and compelling knowledge community out of the market discussions subforum, then they need to get over the mirroring and start serious discussions about the nature of social interaction in Eve, the progress so far in organizations and collective action, and where we might be able to go from here.


Your cargo cult analogy is spot on, but I think we might differ in why these things fail..

The mimicry of real life often discussed in here, tend to make RL financial products way more exotic and advanced, then they actually are..

The missing parts is how simple and basic these things are, and that its only interpersonal features and mechanics that generate all the layers on top.. That is why I tend to always ask for something that sound a lot off topic, but fundamentally these things and features is exactly what will give these ideas a potential reality, and not these cargo cult non flying versions of it..
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-25 18:36:17 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The missing parts is how simple and basic these things are, and that its only interpersonal features and mechanics that generate all the layers on top.. That is why I tend to always ask for something that sound a lot off topic, but fundamentally these things and features is exactly what will give these ideas a potential reality, and not these cargo cult non flying versions of it.


Actually couldn't agree more.

If you want to take apart the fundamentals of a banking system, for example, and then attempt to adjust them to the realities of Eve, then I think you're absolutely on the right track.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#25 - 2012-05-25 18:52:43 UTC
I was actually thinking that if some of those people that keep experimenting with setting up these services, would actually consider involving a trusted 3rd party, like maybe collaboration with Chribba or similar, we might be able to get more traction..

Or even having some sort of 3-4 mirror services running for verification purposes, and hit by truck and scam securitization?

Personally I dont trust most services that arise, even if they have no intention of scamming. The point is as time goes by solo projects always end up at some burn out, even the most succesful ones, and they often then opt to scam instead..

I think that is the biggest challenge to the MD, to actually come together and consider building something as a group that would last beyond hit by truck, burn out, and similar issues.
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
#26 - 2012-05-25 20:46:39 UTC
Yeah,

The reason Block's exchange is attractive for something similar to what I proposed above is:

1. Block controls the 'stocks'. If for some reason we choose to buy out a member because they are no longer with the corp we can cash them out through the exchange and have the 'shares' returned to our BSAC Exchange account. You can't do that in EVE. The party holding the shares has to 'give' the shares back. Which is not ideal.

2. Payments from the parent corp could be made to the exchange and then distributed to the members via their shares in the form of exchange ISK. Then members could choose to use that and invest in other things on the exchange or pull it out, and back into the game. Thus the company as a whole maintains it's wallet, Block isn't given more than a single disbursement at a time to limit his exposure, and the players get their ISK.

3. We (MD) could work with Block and set up a check on the corporation to make sure that members of a particular corporation are getting their 'fair' dividend/bonus/ whatever through the use of audits and the exchange.

Just some additional thoughts.
OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
#27 - 2012-05-25 21:21:38 UTC
OK, let me beat this ex-horse once again. (It's only pining for the fjords)

The only way it would work would be within a large player-run organization.

There must be consequences for default that are painful. The only way that could be effective would be in something like the Goons where they can kick you out, or just kill the crap out of you in their null space. Also, until we can kill people in-station, you have no ability to punish the station traders/perma-docked.

STOCK MARKETS DON'T WORK WITHOUT ENFORCEMENT. CCP WON'T DO STOCK MARKET ENFORCEMENT.

End of Story.
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
#28 - 2012-05-25 22:27:44 UTC
Ollie,

I'm assuming you're talking about the public stock exchange that everyone in this thread has pretty much shot down as well.

I'm talking about a private stock ownership plan using a 3rd party as manager and auditor. Thus there is no need for 'consequences' as there are NO PUBLIC INVESTORS. The individual members of corporation X already are a part of the corporation. They have a vested interest in seeing corporation succeed because they themselves wish to succeed. The dividend paid out each quarter is based on the success of the corp, and the stocks are held within the confines of corp members ONLY.

When a member leaves corporation X they are 'cashed out' by the corporation and the stocks they held redistributed among the remaining members. Thus you build an internally circular model which does not depend on outside investment at all.

I see this as a half-step to a fully public corporation. Think of this more like an ESOP (ala Proctor and Gamble). This is not an IPO.

Does that make sense?
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