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Stock Exchange , Bonds , OCD , More economical dynamics for New Eden

Author
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-24 03:24:25 UTC
As the title says
any thoughts?
the shares system is pretty much static
the so called bonds are pretty much just handing out money based on trusts
it would be nice to have more investment options in this game

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Edward Khurelem
Khurelem Research and Development
#2 - 2012-05-24 04:20:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Khurelem
I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods that are more long term.

I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.

In saying this, how do you suggest it would work?
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-24 04:31:13 UTC
Edward Khurelem wrote:
I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods.

I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.

In saying this, how do you suggest it would work?


well
lets start with stocks

We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .

To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public

You know the rest of the story.

Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.

Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.

Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^

A lot still remains to be discussed.
Any more ideas?

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-05-24 04:32:25 UTC
Edward Khurelem wrote:
I agree, it would be nice to see a other ways of making money other than the existing methods that are more long term.

I am an investor in the National Bank Scheme, it would be nice to have something that is more tangible rather then this trust game which personally, I hate. I am not a trusting person at all and it kind of scares me that majority of these "investments" are trust based.

In saying this, how do you suggest it would work?


we could take some ideas from this page
http://incblog.incorporate.ca/2006/04/issuing-shares-basics.html

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Edward Khurelem
Khurelem Research and Development
#5 - 2012-05-24 08:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Khurelem
Ivy Romanova wrote:

well
lets start with stocks

We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .

To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public

You know the rest of the story.

Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.

Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.

Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^

A lot still remains to be discussed.
Any more ideas?


Interesting Idea I must say because at the moment, shares don't really mean anything other than providing a method of voting for corporations (at least not to me) unless there is a price issued on the share and it entitles me to a weekly, fortnightly or monthly dividend.

If the shares were based around asset value of the corporation, what would be some of the influencing factors that would cause the value of the shares to increase or decrease? It would have to be something that is an acceptable standard that can be applied to all corporations small or large.

What would be the average value of the shares when they first are released onto the stock market?
Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-24 08:37:00 UTC
Edward Khurelem wrote:
Ivy Romanova wrote:

well
lets start with stocks

We could set up the stock exchange market which allows corps to list their company on different boards based on their total asset value, just like real life .

To prevent making the system too complicated , I think we can assume all corps to be public listed companies once they got public

You know the rest of the story.

Companies that want to have its' name listed will have to pay administration fee of several hundred mils per month, depending on the board it's listed on.

Corps with better sec stat will have a lower administration fee , as its assumed they are more credible than other firms.

Investors can only buy shares from a few limited hubs connected to the New Eden Stocks Exchange , one in each empire space to simulate the time zone difference as seen in real life ^^

A lot still remains to be discussed.
Any more ideas?


Interesting Idea I must say because at the moment, shares don't really mean anything other than providing a method of voting for corporations (at least not to me) unless there is a price issued on the share and it entitles me to a weekly, fortnightly or monthly dividend.

If the shares were based around asset value of the corporation, what would be some of the influencing factors that would cause the value of the shares to increase or decrease? It would have to be something that is an acceptable standard that can be applied to all corporations small or large.

What would be the average value of the shares when they first are released onto the stock market?


yep
lets say the asset value determines the shares prices
lets say A has an asset value of 500 billion isk and they plan to issue 500 billion shares to the public , naturally the price per share will be 1 isk per share
thats for the IPO
however m after the corp goes public , the shares prices will be determined by the supply and demand of the market , jsut like how the price is other commodity in game is

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#7 - 2012-05-24 11:25:32 UTC
What stops me from issuing and disbanding the corp?
making a new alt, dumping all my assets onto him, and run it again?

this has been talked before, People will scam. repeatedly. If you can't close down the scams, you're down to trust again, and there's no difference than right now.

even worse, if the guy gets hit by a bus, or stops playing eve, you lost all your ISK.
there is no legal requirement for the corp members to not disband if their leader is gone, and most corps will.

Don't worry about stock medhanics, Worry about the scams - Solve that, and you've solved the problem.

you can also dilute shares as much as you please, making shareholders irrelevant.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#8 - 2012-05-24 11:31:35 UTC
The reason these things arent really in the game yet is lack of features, not lack of player interest..

Problem is every time its discussed half the community of players think ccp can wave a magic wand and the system would be up and working..

We need very basic functionality for economic issues first, the advanced products would develop from there..

Player billing, and the visual aids to keep track of player to player bills would be vital.

Total NAV estimation, which should be possible now with the new calculation mechanics.

A rather big overhaul of the functions and features of the contract system, or alternatively a dedicate scc /exchange market for the shares already in existence in game mechanics.

A player driven system of auditing, that used more effective tools, especially metagame oriented ones.

Last more serious attempts to build lasting business and not merely some ponzi scheme.

There are tons of good businesses in game already, but they usually have no need to share their wealth or ask for funding publically. The main reason for this is that we still got a bit to many isk faucets and a generally unbalanced economy.

The economy is entertaining as a sandbox game, but it still lacks some fundamental checks and balances regarding ecology and bias of the broken windows fellatious economic model.

Ivy Romanova
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-24 13:11:24 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The reason these things arent really in the game yet is lack of features, not lack of player interest..

Problem is every time its discussed half the community of players think ccp can wave a magic wand and the system would be up and working..

We need very basic functionality for economic issues first, the advanced products would develop from there..

Player billing, and the visual aids to keep track of player to player bills would be vital.

Total NAV estimation, which should be possible now with the new calculation mechanics.

A rather big overhaul of the functions and features of the contract system, or alternatively a dedicate scc /exchange market for the shares already in existence in game mechanics.

A player driven system of auditing, that used more effective tools, especially metagame oriented ones.

Last more serious attempts to build lasting business and not merely some ponzi scheme.

There are tons of good businesses in game already, but they usually have no need to share their wealth or ask for funding publically. The main reason for this is that we still got a bit to many isk faucets and a generally unbalanced economy.

The economy is entertaining as a sandbox game, but it still lacks some fundamental checks and balances regarding ecology and bias of the broken windows fellatious economic model.



true true
scamming and the lack of contract , and in general , financial regulations has always plagued the economy of New Eden
especially so in Jita
However , that doesn't mean we can't make the first step in equalizing the power of New Eden , one step at a time.
For piracy , we have GoonSwarm ruining the day , yet , we also have Coalition of Antipirates (COA) to combat the piracy.

There will always be people who scam , and if we don't fill in the loop hole , the stocks market will just become another of their playground

What we need is effect and consequences , bureaucracy.
Distribution of power , any major investments by any listed firms must first pass through a voting session of which a majority of the stock holders have to agree on before being passed ( WHAT WAS YOU THINKING CCP? MULTIACCOUNTING?)
The corp's financial report will be required by law to be automatically disclosed bi-weekly so the public and other investors can balance the risks and returns and judge whether their spending is too aggressive for their taste, and as always , when someone finds the spending to be suspicious , like everything in game , there is always a voice channel for such.

No one said this will be a simple system to implement , and I've just barely scratched the surface , we don't even have the bone structure of the system .

But i think , if we were to further deepen the gaming experience and allow more alternative route of isk making in-game , this should be where we go.

▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ DAMN THIS    SIGNATURE    IS FANCY ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

Gettinsome
Dawn Trading
#10 - 2012-05-24 21:04:24 UTC
All this makes me quiver with excitement, this would open so many more opportunities in the sandbox...perhaps with what time CCP are putting in UI and all that jazz they might revamp the current shares system (crosses fingers but doesn't hold breath)
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-05-24 21:09:06 UTC
wolololololol

in 10 years rubes are still gonna come through here and type up some airy-fairy crap about a stock market and efts and clearing houses for a banking system

so funny

these never get old
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#12 - 2012-05-24 21:26:12 UTC
@Setra

That was kinda my point, and not the misunderstood whine at pvp that seems to have come across. My issue was not about pvp or aggression, it is about meaningless aggression and misplacement of different types of assets.


Anyways.. Every time someone comes in here stary-eyed and talks about these exotic financial products, the tragedy is the same..

We dont need ccp to make these things, we need them to understand what tools are needed for the players to do so.. The spirit of EVE is SANDBOX..

Many have commented on these things MANY times before, and I am only slightly hopeful, because some of the current updates seems to be trending in the right direction.

A way to make transparency. (Wars and aggression just got very public)

Ways to calculate NAV (Sort of here, but on a step by step hangar YAWN basis, we need the feature to be able to sum up more and all locations)

Ways to use politics standing for something with meaning. (npc nerfing, and hopefully more like it to follow)

Way to bill player to player. For all types of services and operations.

Also add total wealth taxation based on liquid assets and NAV. Only ofc stations that corp can see / access. This to balance the lack of taxing option from sources except for missioning..

Last new corp types, and appropriate ownership certificates, share based and share types.. The difference would be in features that would be selected upon creation. Vote or not, dividends or interests on initial payment etc..

Its a rather big request, but it could be introduced in rather small steps, and not warrant some huge update..

LadyOfWrath
Blazing Capsules
Already Replaced.
#13 - 2012-05-24 21:35:28 UTC
I have already coded one stock exchange which was purchased by ECR then never went live due to other issues. The easiest way currently for CCP to make shares hold value is to assigned them a value based on total locked down corp assets divided by total shares. In space assets could be added in as well and this could easily be done via a mySQL database with API integration. This system would basically show a stock value based on assets on hand and stocks could trade based on that across the exchange. Again there is no way to manage people form scamming the system and people WILL do it period. Any CEO irl or in game can cause an action which will devalue shares. In EvE it would still boil down to a trust mechanic.
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-05-24 21:41:59 UTC
it all requires some form of contract enforcement, which will never happen because it goes against the very nature of the game

there is no game mechanic that holds you to your word or applies a punishment for breaking it, and there never will be. all that can develop are reputations, and because the returns are so small in business compared to the capital needed the incentive will always be stronger to just walk away instead of building a reputation. this mix of mechanics and incentives means that complex capital markets will never be achieved in eve beyond small groups of RPers that pop up with their own ticking time bomb inherent in their formation (see the "md elite").

the sad thing is there is tons of interesting finance and economic phenomena in eve, much of it unique to eve and produced directly because of these aforementioned game elements, yet many people fail to grasp them and instead remain stuck on attempting to mirror what they see in the real modern world.
Edward Khurelem
Khurelem Research and Development
#15 - 2012-05-24 21:50:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Khurelem
SetrakDark wrote:

the sad thing is there is tons of interesting finance and economic phenomena in eve, much of it unique to eve and produced directly because of these aforementioned game elements, yet many people fail to grasp them and instead remain stuck on attempting to mirror what they see in the real modern world.


Name a few of these Interesting finance and economic phenomena?

All I see in the finance level of this game is the typical shallow environment of Buy/Sell that are affected by enivoronmental factors such as Hulkagaddon or the Burn Jita movement as well as of course normal player interaction with the market.

I don't see a complex finance setup anywhere in there.

Prove me wrong
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-05-24 22:21:37 UTC
Edward Khurelem wrote:
I don't see a complex finance setup anywhere in there.

Prove me wrong


lol

why would I?

Where did I ever claim there was a "complex finance setup" ? (whatever that is?)

Perhaps rephrase your question in a non-leading way.
TomHorn
Horn Brothers Holdings Inc.
#17 - 2012-05-25 00:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: TomHorn
Stock Exchange does exist in EVE but its out of game and run by a player Block Ukx whos been involved with the MD forums for along time.

Link to stock exchnage below. Where you can buy and sell stocks in companies in EVE.

http://www.bsacse.amxg4.com/home/index.php

Rather than wait for ccp, why not try and support this out of game stock exchange, By opening account there advertise it in your bios. I dont think weve seen many people wanting run business in the MD section for a while. Its generally been bonds from what i remember. If any new IPO come along recommend to try and get them listed on the exchange. Maybe Block could start thread for the stock exchange in the MD section that gets bumped everynow and then to try and get people to open accounts and use it.

Caleb maybe you could link it in the scc-lounge chat channel.

I think trying to support this stock exchange would be much better idea than waiting for ccp.

Those interested in stock exchange should open account today and try it out. Try and buy just few million isk worth stock see how it goes.

Little acorns mighty oak trees grow
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
#18 - 2012-05-25 16:41:33 UTC
I think we need to make a distinction here between the single-point of failure businesses/corps we see here in MD and the mid to large size corporations we see in EVE who have good reputations w/in their sphere of players and have a long-standing history.

As a corp Exec I wish there was a mechanic to pay out all of my members fairly without having to turn over in-game shares to them (for obvious reasons). The members don't need 'voting' shares, but they do need investment shares.

What about the concept of an ESOP? We get Block to set up an interface where by I get my players to sign up with his stock exchange. I give him X shares of my corporation to then dilute to my members. Block then becomes the 3rd party to protect me against my members and in return I give him (or an auditor of his choice) access to evaluate the business as a whole to make sure my members are getting a fair payout, etc.

The company as a whole need not go public, but it offers a way to stimulate this Stock Exchange model. Also, once a player is a member of Block's stock exchange they could very well purchase other 'public' company shares and build a portfolio of private and public shares.

Just a thought. It might be something we as a community could look into.

Durin
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-05-25 16:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: SetrakDark
Durin Sarga wrote:
I think we need...


Player-driven innovation is fine. The point is that CCP will not introduce enforcement mechanics that contradict some of the fundamental principles of the game for the benefit of a miniscule RPing sliver of the playerbase.

Basically, almost every thread that starts with "wouldn't it be cool if CCP..." is a dead end because the simple fact is that CCP won't.
Durin Sarga
Lionhearted Investment Services and Planning
#20 - 2012-05-25 17:12:05 UTC
I totally agree.

Hence why I think there are still several hurdles in managing a 'public' stock exchange. Mainly because public companies tend to be ponzi schemes, scams, etc.

Privately held companies I think is where a player driven attempt at stocks has a chance. Before we go into full blown public stocks maybe we should scale back to something more local.

Give good 'regular' corporations with ~100 members exposure to privately held stocks while protecting these corporations against corp theft a bit might be a good first step.

Then we start to build a body of corporations who are actually corporations and not just single-player investment tools. Does that make sense a bit?

Durin
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