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pirate bs for vanguard sites...

Author
Maureen Biologist
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-10-04 08:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Maureen Biologist
Hi guys.

I've been messing about with vanguard sites in incursions for a little while and i want to move up onto one of the pirate bs's to hopefully get me into a few of the better fleets going.

I can fly all of them with maxed skills (t2 guns etc) so my problem is too much choice is a bad thing.

I also prefer armour fleets.

so:

Bhaalgorn: does 750-870 eft dps depending on crystals used, can fit 2 nos and stay cap stable, and even add something like a cap transfer to the last high and make up pseudo cap chain... not that i'm a fan of that as itd be an expensive ship and if the logi aggressed someone i would be less than happy. you could also fit dual fed navy webs for 28km dual web...

Vindicator: Everyone goes on about this being the king of vanguard dps. now, i can get 1k-1350 eft dps, but i'm aware that theyre still only blasters, and as such could have trouble projecting this dps much beyond about 15km, meaning you lose out on dps as new waves spawn, as many spawn out to 60-70km or so. still, dual fed navy 90% web, still only 14km range though (without booster/oh)

machariel: this is the one i'm not sure about. i haven't eft'd it. a mate says that its the one to go for if i just want dps, as it projects good dps out to a long range, and has great tracking. i can still fit dual web but theres no special bonuses there... what do people think?

nightmare: its just not gonna work as an armour ship tbh. could have tracking computers and sebo's up the wazoo, but wouldn't have room for a sensible tank AND some heatsinks with only 5 lows.

rattlesnake: lollerskates.

so yea, not generally looking for fits (unless you're feeling generous), but just general ideas on what people think is the best ship for the role. and why they think that. (please dont just say 'vindicator' or 'mach')
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2011-10-04 10:06:23 UTC
Maureen Biologist wrote:
I also prefer armour fleets.
This is your problem, right here.
Maureen Biologist
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-04 10:29:29 UTC
whys that a problem?

i must say, i havent tried enough shield fleets for my sample size to draw the best results from, but i generally feel a lot safer in armour fleets.

please elaborate on your suggestion. if i should be flying shield fleets then tell me why? as finding a fleet isn't generally an issue for me as armour (the main complaint i hear about armour fleets is generally that theyre less common etc)

theres always tons of shield pilots LFSF, though admittedly most of the ones that stay LFSF for any period of time have bad ships/fits, which generally leads me to believe that i would spend far too long looking for fleet. or do the *good* shield ships get picked up quickly?
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#4 - 2011-10-04 11:02:41 UTC
Bhaal, is pretty nice for webbing and brings also great utility if you use cap transfers on it, recharging other cap heavy ships.

The Vindi is quite a bit less impressive in a armor fit, than in shield fitting. Mostly because spare webs are more common in armor fleets and you can't fit 4 MFS + 2 TEs. It is the best damage dealer, however the lack of range limits you a lot, especially with lots of good puls setups in the gang.

Mach got a good damage, range and tracking. It is a very solid damage dealer like a puls ship in a armor gang(w/o the cap issues, while being neuted). Biggest downside is that it eats a lot of ammo, what is painful with faction ammo.

I have seen armor tanked nightmares(terrible), it is awesome in shield gangs offering a lot dps, range, extreme high tracking and in most cases a web to.

Haven't seen a rattler in Incursions for quite some time, they have awesome tanks plus the ability to fit quite a few painters or webs. Damage however is rather low and you will lose tons of drones. Also basically a pure shield ship.

Paladin is also a option, offering the 90% web with puls lasers, range/tracking/dps however is quite a bit worse than on the NM, the low sensor strength and scan resolution hurts, refitting it for sniping with tachs requires a RCU if you fit weapon rigs and the tank tends to be very flimsy by the massive signature radius at least from my experience in it. On the plus side the cap stability even in a gank setup is unmatched, it can store a lot ore/ammo for other ships and the utility slots for cap transfers/nos/RR gives you lot of options combined with other very cap demanding setups.

[Paladin, puls60+]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Dark Blood Heat Sink
Dark Blood Heat Sink

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines, Scan Resolution
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
True Sansha Heavy Nosferatu
Large Energy Transfer Array II
Large Energy Transfer Array II

Large Energy Collision Accelerator II
Large Energy Locus Coordinator I


Hobgoblin II x5
Light Armor Maintenance Bot II x5
Mining Drone I x5

Vindi would be probably the best in gangs without much web/painter support, Bhaal is the best if you have no loki/huggin and you got good logi skills to make proper use of the utility. Mach would be the best all around damage dealer, useful in any kind of gang, since it is like the vindi not so much dependent on other ships(lacking the utility of the 90% web however). I generally use the Pala(cheap ammo, solid dps/range, 90% web) or Legion for armor gangs.
Lugalzagezi666
#5 - 2011-10-04 11:13:01 UTC
Just get a legion for armor fleets and farm ncos.
Aamrr
#6 - 2011-10-04 11:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
You forgot the single best armor incursion DPS ship available: The Paladin. Nightmare level DPS, 90% webs, and scorch to project it when new waves spawn. It also has one of the best resist profiles for omni tanking in the game.

The legion is also worth looking at. If you're interested, I recommend my locus configuration, which you can find here: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/53849-Locus-Legion-for-Vanguards.html

Edit: Seriously, are the forums broken that badly that I can't post hyperlinks anymore? ::Excellence::
Maureen Biologist
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2011-10-04 11:37:15 UTC
ok, i have a thing for t3's, theyre generally more fun to fly than bigger ships...

Do people like legions for vanguard sites? or will they go 'its not a shiney pirate bs, so not interested'? or will only the ignorant think like that?

i assume that the applied dps must be pretty damn good as theyre only medium weapons with good tracking? I always seem to notice sites go quicker when you add something like a legion or a proteus to the fleet.

and thats another question: legion or proteus? i assume proteus suffers the same range based problems the vindi does?
Aamrr
#8 - 2011-10-04 11:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Proteus simply lacks the range to be viable in Vanguards, much less anything higher. The Legion works because it has a 50% optimal bonus, T2 locus coordinators are awesome, and scorch is awesome.

Anyway, you can expect about 730 DPS from conflag on that ship -- and with two scripted TCs, a web, and medium turret signature resolution, you've got the tracking to use it against most everything (multifrequency will probably still be preferable against frigates, though).

There's also the luxury of flying one of using a four slot tank and flying one of the most overtanked ships in the fleet. Lowest resist is 73%, and you're working with armor-HAC style signature tanking.

Edit: There's also the signature resolution bonus, which is pretty damn spiffy too.
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#9 - 2011-10-04 12:04:48 UTC
Legions are pretty nice against small stuff given the massive range, good tracking and good DPS. Running NCOs with 6-7 Legions, where you just have frigs provides tons of fun. It is a lot better than the proteus since the range you archive(up to 50km optimal with scorch) combined with the good dps makes it the far more effective damage dealer.

Faction BS vs T3 depends a bit on what the FC is up to, if you have long range webs or 90% webs and do mostly mining sites and OTAs the higher DPS of the BS will be preferred. If you mostly do NCOs the better ability to deal with small stuff makes the T3 more preferable. In general you can see a mix of them, rarer pure T3 gangs for NCO bashing or pure gank BS setups for OTA blitzing.

JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#10 - 2011-10-04 12:28:42 UTC  |  Edited by: JackStraw56
The Proteus is not good as others have said. It's so annoying when people show up with their proteus and think it's the hottest thing since sliced bread. The applied dps is just bad. The range is MUCH worse than a Vindi - medium hybrids are just about the worst weapons in the game.

Legion on the other hand is quite good at NCOs.

From the pirate BSs, the Vindi and Mach are the obvious choices. As long as you don't overtank them, you can get comparable DPS with better tracking compared to shield fits. I fly both and I think I get better total damage out of the machariel because of the massively improved range over the vindi. Both should get you into good fleets.

Bhaalgorn is not too bad, but it's damage is not great, and faction webs with a skirmish booster have enough range for pretty much anything in Vanguards (making the web bonus much less useful on the Bhaalgorn). A paladin is a great ship though because the web strength bonus is much more useful than the range bonus and it does a good bit more damage than a bhaalgorn.
Aamrr
#11 - 2011-10-04 12:45:51 UTC
JackStraw56 wrote:
Bhaalgorn is not too bad, but it's damage is not great, and faction webs with a skirmish booster have enough range for pretty much anything in Vanguards (making the web bonus much less useful on the Bhaalgorn). A paladin is a great ship though because the web strength bonus is much more useful than the range bonus and it does a good bit more damage than a bhaalgorn.


There's a lot of good advice right here. Web range bonuses look attractive initially, but with a good gang link booster and faction webs, every ship can web out to 20km. After that, all the Bhaalgorn is left with a mere 8 effective hardpoints and some pretty energy neutralization bonuses that don't do anything on NPCs.

Get a loki to give you skirmish bonuses and try the Paladin. Even if you ignore the 25% DPS advantage it has over the Bhaalgorn, 90% webs are too sexy to ignore. Nevermind the moderate resist bonus.
Maureen Biologist
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-04 12:55:28 UTC
cheers for all the good and detailed responses guys.

I'm still a bit unsure. I wont fly the paladin simply because i cannot stand how it looks (i know, how very un-powergame-ish of me)

I'm going to look into the legion, i think, as it looks fun, and is something different. I need an excuse to polish off those SS skills anyway.

what about for shield fleets then? I worry that the smaller buffer in a pug shield fleet is a risk if the logis are bad? in a shield fleet which one turns up best. nm vindi or mach? i assume the vindi does insane dps witha full rack of dmg mods in lows, but still has range issues... what are the mach and nm like for shield fleets? (tbh i like the sound of a pulse nm (i assume you'd go for pulse), as crystals are so much cheaper/easier to carry around than tons of republic fleet ammo.
Songbird
#13 - 2011-10-04 13:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Songbird
Why go for pirate ships when the best armor BS is the abaddon, and I'll tell you why.

- for incrsions you want lazors - no ammo hauling, high range, high dps.

- for armor fleets the abaddon gives you natural resists

- it's relatively cheap, yet it gives you paladin/nightmare level dps.

- you can fit rainbow crystals and pretend you're an unicorn

here's a fit:

8 megapulse

3 TC, 1 sebo

3 navy heated sinks , and maybe a bathtub with a shower head.
2 imperial navy energized adaptive nano membranes - only 40 mil each
DC
1600mm plate.

energy discharge elutriation t2 rigs x 2 (only 20m each IIRC)
EDE t1 rig

The resists are: 82 77 73 71

Shooting time with conflag 7.5 mins, navy multifreq 12min - usually only gets bad when you're a drain target but a buddy can top you off then, still only active tanking is the DC so you can keep your tank even with no cap.


About 350-400 mil for the whole thing , with the TC's filled with range script and scorch ammo you'll have 850 gun dps at 65 km optimal. With 2 tracking scripts and 1 ranged with conflagration ammo you'll have around 1200 dps at 17+13 km range. For even higher tracking you can use navy MF.

It goes without saying that the ship works best with a dedicated webbing guy - I'd say a loki for armor fleets and every FC worth his or her weight in salt will procure 1.

With this ship I've flown in fleets with machs and vindis and have to say that at the end of the site I see more wrecks with my name on them than any other. I was overkilled once by a guy with 4 heatsinks and slave implants but he was in an abaddon also.

edit: forgot to say those numbers were with damage implants.

As for shield go nightmare, but be sure to wear a diaper in case your shield goes to 10% or even down to armor. I've noticed that at times the incursion AI tends to focus on the ships doing the most DPS. And as nightmare driver you'd be doing a lot of dps. I have to say that navy invuln will raise your survival chances but also your ship cost by 500 mil.

on a side note, save a ship fit with only t2 modules and advertise that in fleets - you don't wanna be a gank target or even a target of evil non-repping logistics.
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2011-10-04 13:27:00 UTC
I do incursions fairly regularly, and Vindicators seem to be in the highest demand. Machariel and Nightmares are usually a close second. Bhaalgorns are very good as well.

The thing with Bhaals and Vindi's is you're getting a complete package. Some people like to have a Loki for webbing, with the battleships you're getting good webs, with good dps and good defense.

Rattlesnake could be good for an anchor. Drones really aren't as bad as people make them out to be, sansha, and sleepers for that matter, will always shoot one of the 10 actual ships first. The DPS just isn't as good.
Lugalzagezi666
#15 - 2011-10-04 13:37:33 UTC
From my experience :

Shield fleets - Nightmares, Machs, Vindis, Bhaals /usually only 1 in fleet/, Lokis /1 in fleet/. Shield fleets blitz otas.
Armor fleets - Legions, Paladins, Machs, Vindis, Bhaals, Absos, Lokis. Armor fleets go for ncos /atleast legion heavy fleets/.

And 3 logis.

You wont do mistake with any of this ships, all of them are in demand. I liked nightmare the most for shield, but legions are probably best nco blitzers for armor.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2011-10-04 14:49:01 UTC
Maureen Biologist wrote:
whys that a problem?
It's a problem because you are needlessly limiting your options and thus eliminate some very nice and very good options. You also run the risk of accidentally eliminating a lot of opportunities to take part in those incursions (from my observations, shield fleets seem a fair bit more popular, but that's just anecdotal and might vary and/or just be plain old not true any more).

You need to approach incursions in a drastically different way from other PvE — it's all about the fleet. As a result, it is much less about what you want to fly and far more about what is needed for the task. You can still (usually) pick a role, and the faction battleships tend to fall into the “apply massive DPS” category (except maybe the Vindi and Bhaal, but they also do it indirectly through their web bonuses, which bring a massive increase in everyone's damage application, and that adds significant value too).
Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2011-10-04 15:28:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Maureen Biologist wrote:

Vindicator: Everyone goes on about this being the king of vanguard dps. now, i can get 1k-1350 eft dps, but i'm aware that theyre still only blasters, and as such could have trouble projecting this dps much beyond about 15km, meaning you lose out on dps as new waves spawn, as many spawn out to 60-70km or so. still, dual fed navy 90% web, still only 14km range though (without booster/oh)

nightmare: its just not gonna work as an armour ship tbh. could have tracking computers and sebo's up the wazoo, but wouldn't have room for a sensible tank AND some heatsinks with only 5 lows.

1)Don't limit yourself to only armor ships, especially when it's a LOT easier to get a ship to shield tank well than it is to get it to armor tank.

2)This is the fit I use when I run vanguards: http://oi55.tinypic.com/2en5ob7.jpg With the MWD swapped out for a third web depending on what I'm doing. Haven't flown it in a while mind you, since I don't really solo vanguards anymore, but if you want proof of its beastliness consider this: I can clear an NCO in 6 minutes from payout to payout. A good fleet can do it in about 3, with 8 ships dealing DPS instead of 1. Mind you I would not recommend more than 1-2 vindis in a fleet, because beyond that you spend too much time waiting/burning, NMs tend to be a better bet if there's already a vindi in fleet.

3)That 14km goes up to 17 with a non-dedicated skirmish link, 20 with a loki booster, and 25 if you overheat (which is viable with webs, they last a looooooong time overheated), and a single web from a vindi is like 4.5 webs from anything else. (would be exactly 4 were it not for stacking penalties)
Songbird
#18 - 2011-10-04 16:56:03 UTC
About that vindi - a few comments.

- you have 5 heavy or sentry drones out there doing DPS , which doesn't really work for vanguards.

- you have 65% em resist AFTER the maxed out tengu factored in. In it's original form it's more like 62.5% and 64 for thermal. I hope you do have that tengu boosting repair time as well as resists because without it you won't be surviving long enough to apply that "2000" dps

- an offlined MWD? - most of the ships stay in a clump - not because they can't move but because if they're primaried all the rats will stay next to you and AWAY from the rest of your fleet. So basically useless module

- no SEBO... ts ts if that fleet has any competent people you won't get to shoot at anything other than BS since it will be dead before you can target it.

-5th damage mod ? interesting solution when your optimal is 8.8km and your falloff is 10 . Those cruisers orbiting at 22km will be only 5km short of your range...

Having said all that - that vindi looks impressive as hell though (2000 dps oh yeah what FC wouldn't want that) - do fit that if you ever need a fleet - you're sure to be picked up.

On a side note - buff hybrids CCP

Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-04 17:17:00 UTC
Songbird wrote:
About that vindi - a few comments.

- you have 5 heavy or sentry drones out there doing DPS , which doesn't really work for vanguards.

It really does, if you know what you're doing. I also much prefer heavies over medium/light drones, for some reason they almost never get shot at, to the point where I actually went and read through my gamelogs to make sure they were actually hitting the things I told them to Lol

Songbird wrote:

- you have 65% em resist AFTER the maxed out tengu factored in. In it's original form it's more like 62.5% and 64 for thermal. I hope you do have that tengu boosting repair time as well as resists because without it you won't be surviving long enough to apply that "2000" dps
I can understand your hesitation, to people who fly with pubs such a fit looks scary, and I had a LOT of fun trolling the crap out of incursion chat, linking that fit and having people ask/show up looking to salvage my wreck. Funny thing is, the only time I EVER lost a vindi was to a DC that happened right as I warped into a site (Ive even survived DCs that happened mid-site, it's not that hard)

Note that this is just my one-size-fits-all vindi. Since when I'm running solo I don't do OTAs, I can actually get away with dropping one of the invulns and still tank NCOs/NMCs just fine. The key is competent logi pilots, and since I AM a competent logi pilot, I get to get away with fitting minimal tank on my vindi Cool


Songbird wrote:

- an offlined MWD? - most of the ships stay in a clump - not because they can't move but because if they're primaried all the rats will stay next to you and AWAY from the rest of your fleet. So basically useless module
Learn to eft. That MWD is turned off, not offline. It's also extremely useful in OTAs and NMCs. If you spend too much time getting into range you lose a LOT of applied DPS, and tbh the whole range thing is moot most of the time, since as I mentioned earlier, you don't really want more than one vindi in a fleet anyway, and NMs/Machs can hit out at things from so far away that the reduction in transversal from being so far is more of a help than the extra range is a hindrance.

Songbird wrote:

- no SEBO... ts ts if that fleet has any competent people you won't get to shoot at anything other than BS since it will be dead before you can target it.
-5th damage mod ? interesting solution when your optimal is 8.8km and your falloff is 10 . Those cruisers orbiting at 22km will be only 5km short of your range...
Well, given that I was a 1-man fleet, and given that I'm probably the only person to successfully run vanguards on my own (which implies some level of competence) I'd say you're wrong there mister Big smile
Changing the 4th MFS to a TE did nothing to my site completion times, and tbh I just kept the 4th one on there cuz it let me pass the 2k DPS mark Pirate

It's also worth noting that the falloff with AM is quite a bit more. I had no problem popping myelens where they spawn, 1-2 volleys tends to be enough.

Songbird wrote:

Having said all that - that vindi looks impressive as hell though (2000 dps oh yeah what FC wouldn't want that) - do fit that if you ever need a fleet - you're sure to be picked up.
Like I said, it will clear an NCO in 6 minutes payout to payout. 8 good DPS ships can do it in about half the time.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-10-04 17:20:08 UTC
The only objective measure of effectiveness is how many rat wrecks carry your corp tag, as opposed to someone else's. It's indication who did the most applied dps to it.

I've flied Bhaalgorn/Vindi/Mach/Legion/Loki for armor, Tengu/Loki/Mach for shield. I've found Mach in armor and Tengu in shield to produce the most wrecks. Tengu is fully implanted though, from mission running on this carebear toon.

The thing I noticed with Mach is that with 3 Shadow Serp TCs, all scripted to tracking (35% tracking), it hits harder, faster, further, and more reliably than Legion, on targets both webbed or unwebbed. The lock speed, sig, and speed is also on par with hulls a size smaller, and locks fast without sebo, freeing up a mid. I expected it to handle like a BS, but it ended up being a flat Legion upgrade, producing far more wrecks than with my Legion or any other in fleet.
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