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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Open letter to CCP and the community regarding HYDRA and OB ban from ATX

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Lazarus Telraven
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2012-05-25 02:59:42 UTC
DurrHurrDurr wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
spookydonut wrote:
Maybe you should have taken their warnings seriously and only entered one team.


Solid advice right there.


The TEST and GSF teams practice together, and share setups/fits/tactics. Are we going to be banned from participating as well?



Test/GSF shoot each other. We dont share tactics/Ship fits/setups

TEST has done all of their own leg work and so has the GSF team... now if we can just make it into the tournament is the real challenge.

maybe Shamis will loan us some isk to buy a tourney slot
Tear Miner
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-05-25 03:22:08 UTC
I think CCP was right to do this.

There's always next year kid.

And if you had that much of an adverse physical reaction to not being in the AT, you should rethink your priorities.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-05-25 03:25:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jovan Geldon
Lazarus Telraven wrote:

*snip*
DurrHurrDurr wrote:
The TEST and GSF teams practice together, and share setups/fits/tactics. Are we going to be banned from participating as well?



Test/GSF shoot each other. We dont share tactics/Ship fits/setups

TEST has done all of their own leg work and so has the GSF team... now if we can just make it into the tournament is the real challenge.

maybe Shamis will loan us some isk to buy a tourney slot


We shot ourselves for practice, and we used our own comms and entirely separate forums for theorycrafting during the process. The only involvement anyone in PL had was to say "We'll pay your entry fee if you can't cover it", and also one (literally one) recent graduate to Sniggerdly popped back in to help us make up the numbers once or twice when the turnout for training was low.

I can entirely understand the need to avoid potential match-throwing situations, but I can assure you, we would have relished the opportunity to beat the PL team, perhaps even more so than any other. As DHD rightly points out, CFC-bloc members will be helping each other out in training, and I'd be astonished if the inter-corp membership turnover wasn't relatively high amongst those alliances. But when it comes to the real thing, they *are* going to want to beat each other, no question about it. Our situation is the same; whatever links we might have to PL or Sniggerdly are (or rather, were) going right out of the window the second the countdown in Local finished for our first match.

There's a horrible whiff of double-standards and general ~mad~ about this whole situation, and I don't like it one bit.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-05-25 04:18:52 UTC
Nethras wrote:
That is... a lot of emails that you seem to be getting no reply on. Perhaps you should double check where you're sending them and that it is in fact an email address CCP actually reads.


It was the official email used by the team as confirmed by Loxy.

All emails sent to the address from us were completely ignored and the only response we got from an official CCP entity was the response from the Senior GM.

hydra provail
ZONK DONKEY
Incestuous Cult of Paranoid Swamp People
#45 - 2012-05-25 05:15:19 UTC
I think this whole thing is stupid

If it were true to EVE, they should let it play out as it is like all other events.

To be fair, I think they should let either Hydra or Outbreak in the AT, they put in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week into practising (Which by the way, you guys REALLY need to find something else to do than just this. This is obsession beyond measure), while communication between CCP and them have been vague at best.

Yes they sort of ruined last year's finals, but they did it legitimately. Let it play as it would say.



But after this year, do not have another official EVE alliance tournament.
Yes, it's quite fun to watch and prizes are good, but with it's artificialities goes against what EVE is as a sandbox game.

If you're going to have an alliance tournament in the future, put it in the hands of the players, maybe even the CSM or something, or elect another council to organise it rather than Devs etc.

Player sanctioned prizes and all.

Finish this one by handing out the Caldari ships and be done with.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2012-05-25 06:02:15 UTC
Stewwhich wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
spookydonut wrote:
Maybe you should have taken their warnings seriously and only entered one team.


Solid advice right there.



You know what would be sound advice? Trying to bring some consistency to CCP. For example, CCP pretty much said that they worked with excutors of RvB in order to facilitate the Alliance Tournament entry for them. Why did you not provide the same courtesy to Hydra and Outbreak? Did you even send correspondence to them asking them to stop combined training?

Considering that you already set precedence with RvB and that one of your own employees answered Hydra's petition regarding unified training you should rescind the ban and work out the issue with executors of Hydra / Outbreak. Otherwise you look like petulant children stomping their feet and saying "But I don't wanna have them in ATX, they gave me a booboo last year".


This is a good post. I'm still amazed that every single email sent to the tournament team was completely ignored and the only official response we got (a Senior GM out of touch with the tournament team) was deemed invalid.

hydra provail
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#47 - 2012-05-25 06:11:29 UTC
Intigo wrote:
This is a good post. I'm still amazed that every single email sent to the tournament team was completely ignored and the only official response we got (a Senior GM out of touch with the tournament team) was deemed invalid.
Let me quote myself, post from the other thread:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Pretty sure it was the tournament team that banned you (sreegs) and they didn't even know about what the GM said to you until it was posted in the thread, ergo they hadn't read any of your correspondence.
I asked CCP Spitfire if particularly that GM is allowed to reply such questions. He assured that GMs won't reply questions concerning AT without asking proper people & said that this GM is really competent guy and his words might be relied on.

I really doubt Senior GM with such credit would post random answer about things he has no clue about.
Pallidum Treponema
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#48 - 2012-05-25 06:50:40 UTC
I will state that locking the previous topic to prevent discussion is bad form. The statement should have been locked right off, allowing for a separate comment thread, or not locked at all.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a sandbox game where metagaming is not only exists, but is a common part of the gameplay. As has seen in many previous tournaments, metagaming HAS been a part of the alliance tournament, with thrown matches, attempts at bribery, spying, betrayals and so on. What was different in AT9 was that two teams working together managed to make it to the finals.

I can understand CCP's desire to make the ATX finals exciting for all, but their behavior in this matter is less than desirable.

To state that Hydra and Outbreak are the same entity betrays their ignorance of the poltical spectrum in EVE. It is plainly obvious that the entities are completely separate, although they do work very closely together. The rule should have been stated more clearly, and Hydra's emails and petitions should have been answered promptly. The failure of the alliance tournament team to do so is not a point in their favor.

For what it's worth, I believe that with proper communication, the ATX team could have prevented this scenario from occurring in the first place. It feels to me that they intentionally let this slide until they could bring the hammer down. If true, this reeks of politics and poor form.

I would love to see a reconsideration and a response from the ATX team, because as far as I'm concerned right now, this has now turned into a case of bad PR.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2012-05-25 07:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Intigo
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Intigo wrote:
This is a good post. I'm still amazed that every single email sent to the tournament team was completely ignored and the only official response we got (a Senior GM out of touch with the tournament team) was deemed invalid.
Let me quote myself, post from the other thread:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Pretty sure it was the tournament team that banned you (sreegs) and they didn't even know about what the GM said to you until it was posted in the thread, ergo they hadn't read any of your correspondence.
I asked CCP Spitfire if particularly that GM is allowed to reply such questions. He assured that GMs won't reply questions concerning AT without asking proper people & said that this GM is really competent guy and his words might be relied on.

I really doubt Senior GM with such credit would post random answer about things he has no clue about.


Oh, I didn't see that.

So that's another CCP member telling us that the Senior GM can be trusted and that his word is given either from knowing what he's talking about or from asking the people responsible for the tournament itself what should be done in this case.

Yet the tournament team dismisses what he said entirely when it is the only response given from CCP to us on the entire matter when our emails were ignored?

It's a bit sad that CCP would ignore all communication and ban us from the tournament 30 minutes before the auctions open.

hydra provail
Rear Infiltration
Tyrans d'Or
#50 - 2012-05-25 07:22:21 UTC
Maybe if you didn't make a joke of the finals in the previous year, this wouldn't be happening?
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-05-25 07:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Intigo
Rear Infiltration wrote:
Maybe if you didn't make a joke of the finals in the previous year, this wouldn't be happening?


Have you read Duncans post from last year? Last years final was a massive mistake and was not intended to go down that way. Everyone involved with that sincerely regrets how it went down and would love for nothing else than to have shown a true, fun brawl for everyone involved (that means, the viewers) to enjoy to the fullest. Mistakes were made and many apologies were made on the forums last year.

Do the rules apply differently to us because of what happened last year? Is it fair to punish 2 teams for a genuine mistake (that was in every way unintentional) that happened a year prior by ignoring any attempt at communication (emails) and invalidating the statements from 2 CCP members (the Senior GM in question and CCP Spitfire)? How can you argue for the validity of a ruling based on something that happened in an entirely different tournament with another ruleset?

I don't think you could find anyone more apologetic about how the finals went down last year than Duncan. We love to watch, follow and compete in the tournament as much as you do - we are fans like everyone else!

hydra provail
Spyker Slater
Bliksem Bende
#52 - 2012-05-25 07:39:55 UTC
Let me start by saying I was very mad after the final last year. But I think maybe a compromise CCP could do is to let them compete as one alliance as is the case with RvB?
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2012-05-25 08:30:55 UTC
The fact is that both HYDRA and outbreak were the best teams of AT9.

They tried to communicate with CCP through official channels but got no response.

The teams where not yet sellected but CCP banned them from the tournament.

Normally I don't bash CCP much because I actually like the company, but in this case they were not reallyl fair. If you make rules, make them clear! And also apply them to everybody (GOON + TEST for example) the same way.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Officer Nyota Uhura
#54 - 2012-05-25 08:46:53 UTC
Intigo wrote:
Do the rules apply differently to us because of what happened last year? Is it fair to punish 2 teams for a genuine mistake ... ?

I love Eve is easy. I've paid for watching those great videos. I loved the way you fought and I think you were the best of AT9. But I still think that YES - rules do apply differently because of the **** you fed me last year, and YES - it's fair to punish the two teams for that. I was genuinely excited for the whole AT9 and rearranged my work to see the finals, just to see that crap you guys gave us. IMO, while I'm a fan of yours, you get what you deserve.
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-05-25 08:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nemesis Factor
ZONK DONKEY wrote:
I think this whole thing is stupid

If it were true to EVE, they should let it play out as it is like all other events.

To be fair, I think they should let either Hydra or Outbreak in the AT, they put in 8 hours a day, 5 days a week into practising (Which by the way, you guys REALLY need to find something else to do than just this. This is obsession beyond measure), while communication between CCP and them have been vague at best.

Yes they sort of ruined last year's finals, but they did it legitimately. Let it play as it would say.



But after this year, do not have another official EVE alliance tournament.
Yes, it's quite fun to watch and prizes are good, but with it's artificialities goes against what EVE is as a sandbox game.

If you're going to have an alliance tournament in the future, put it in the hands of the players, maybe even the CSM or something, or elect another council to organise it rather than Devs etc.

Player sanctioned prizes and all.

Finish this one by handing out the Caldari ships and be done with.


The Alliance Tournament is not Eve. If it WERE the sandbox they would allow us to move in and interrupt the fight. It's completely separate. That means whatever rules CCP wants to put in.


Officer Nyota Uhura wrote:
Intigo wrote:
Do the rules apply differently to us because of what happened last year? Is it fair to punish 2 teams for a genuine mistake ... ?

I love Eve is easy. I've paid for watching those great videos. I loved the way you fought and I think you were the best of AT9. But I still think that YES - rules do apply differently because of the **** you fed me last year, and YES - it's fair to punish the two teams for that. I was genuinely excited for the whole AT9 and rearranged my work to see the finals, just to see that crap you guys gave us. IMO, while I'm a fan of yours, you get what you deserve.


I concur. You can sit at least one out. People and organizations alike pay for mistakes, even if it wasn't anyone's fault (which it was).
Wob Wob Wob
Incestuous Cult of Paranoid Swamp People
#56 - 2012-05-25 09:28:22 UTC
Nemesis Factor wrote:

The Alliance Tournament is not Eve. If it WERE the sandbox they would allow us to move in and interrupt the fight. It's completely separate. That means whatever rules CCP wants to put in.



Exactly

It doesn't feel like it is EVE, it just feels like an outside tournament among the elite.

The tournament itself I don't mind, I think it should be fair and just, but for something that doesn't really fit into the EVE ecosystem all that much, the prizes should not be so glamorous.

Just give them a monument and some game time or something rather than exclusive ships
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#57 - 2012-05-25 10:11:36 UTC
SwindonBadger and others: not sure how you came to the conclusion that I have some personal grudge/rage against Hydra/0utbreak. Yes, I do think you won last year unfairly, and I do think you deserve the punishment, but my feelings are nowhere near as intense as you imagine them to be. It's just internet spaceships, after all. I've also posted multiple times that I think one of your teams should be allowed into ATX, as it would make for a better tournament.

One amusing thing does come to mind though. A few people from Hydra/0utbreak said that last year's match against DarkSide was the actual/real final, and that therefore people shouldn't be upset about the official final. I agree with this assessment and am waiting for 50 Malices to be contracted to me Cool
Time Funnel
Just a side dish
Outspoken Alliance
#58 - 2012-05-25 10:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Time Funnel
DurrHurrDurr wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
spookydonut wrote:
Maybe you should have taken their warnings seriously and only entered one team.


Solid advice right there.


The TEST and GSF teams practice together, and share setups/fits/tactics. Are we going to be banned from participating as well?


Sigh. I think MB3's app to TEST's tournament team got denied (not by me). Durr who has never shown up for a practice or shown any interest in our AT team is using it as ammunition to support Hydra.

Never change TEST. Never change. Absolute chaos. This is like an extension of our internal forums.

For the record we stole one setup from Goons so far. It had Proteii in it and we have never flown it. And they beat us 80% of the time. We can't even get pilots with the trained skills to fly our own setups. Goons are clearly the superior team at this point.
Lemster
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2012-05-25 10:33:44 UTC
Leeloo Malaquin wrote:

- HYDRA and OB are not a single entity. They are 2 different entities on TQ with their own history. CCP knows this very well. We worked together closely in AT9 but with the new rules we were only planning to test together(unless told we can't do it) before the tournament begins.


If you watch last years final carefully I think you'll find that for tournament purposes you are one entity.

+1 CCP
Spark's
Infinite Regress.
#60 - 2012-05-25 10:53:46 UTC
CCP has made an example of you and Outbreak. as a warning to other alliances so deal with it. At the end of the day you will continue to play the game and most likely will enter next year. Just remember the rules next time to avoid this mess. you have only yourself to blame, the rule they done for you was to STOP what you did last year.

Terra Hawks Recruting: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2397675#post2397675 Public Channel: Hawks Pub