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Current Caldari Faction War

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Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#141 - 2012-05-24 20:19:04 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:


Caldari have the best single line up of fleet ships if stayed all racial.



Uhmm, amarr ?
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#142 - 2012-05-24 20:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Lock out wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:


Caldari have the best single line up of fleet ships if stayed all racial.



Uhmm, amarr ?


>= BS, I agree with you.

<= BC, I think Caldari fleets have the advantage.

And I don't like the former as much as the latter, hence why I am such a caldari ship fan :)

EDIT: I'm not actually that sure. Rail rokhs + basilisks vs baddons + guardians.... and keep in mind the caldari fleet gets falcons while the amarr fleets only gets a curse/pilgrim. I'd have to EFT some numbers, but actually I think pure caldari might win against pure amarr in the BS dept too.
BolsterBomb
Perkone
Caldari State
#143 - 2012-05-24 20:46:09 UTC
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Key thing to remember with Caldari.

They are not solo ships they are fleet ships.


Disagree, caldari ships make excellent solo ships.

- Best agility in class, great for running gatecamps
- Good damage projection, giving you the ability to hit from range and disengage when you inevitably get blobbed (escape is a large component of solo pvp)
- Lots and lots of midslots (ewar becomes less important as the fleet size increases IMO)
- Shields - allows you to hit and run and recharge without having to dock/repair.



I will counter your offer with a dose of Wimnatar

Better agility
Better speed
Better flexibility (armor or shield) (missiles or projectiles)
Better damage
Lots of slot variations

Brig General of The Caldari State

"Don" Bolsterbomb

Traitor and Ex Luminaire General of The Gallente Federation
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#144 - 2012-05-24 20:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
BolsterBomb wrote:
chatgris wrote:
BolsterBomb wrote:
Key thing to remember with Caldari.

They are not solo ships they are fleet ships.


Disagree, caldari ships make excellent solo ships.

- Best agility in class, great for running gatecamps
- Good damage projection, giving you the ability to hit from range and disengage when you inevitably get blobbed (escape is a large component of solo pvp)
- Lots and lots of midslots (ewar becomes less important as the fleet size increases IMO)
- Shields - allows you to hit and run and recharge without having to dock/repair.



I will counter your offer with a dose of Wimnatar

Better agility
Better speed
Better flexibility (armor or shield) (missiles or projectiles)
Better damage
Lots of slot variations



Agility - Wrong, same agility. (Look at the base stats of the drake vs cane).
Raw Speed - Correct, but you only get that advantage shield tanking, in which case you lose ewar (at least separate from the active shield tanking minnie ships)
Flexibility - Disagree here. If you do shield you're pretty much ditching any ewar capabilities, and armor isn't as great for soloing.
Damage - Disagree here as well. Fighting a hurricane, I do more damage with HML's than he does shooting me with ac's when I hold him between 14km and 24km (the various ranges as I hit him with overheated double webs to slow his approach to me and I speed up, then he speeds up after me etc. And I've got a better tank to boot. And if he's armor fit, he 's too slow and I get far more damage @ 20km, and the ability to disengage at will.

If the cane fits arties, I usually out dps/tank him in my experience fighting, and if it's a problem (and you're willing to get in web/scram range which I generally like to avoid) you can zoom in, double web the cane and get under the arty tracking.

And if the cane fits arties, he's screwed if a ceptor/af plays the transversal game right and gets in under the guns. The drake, it's a gift when a ceptor/af gets in web range.

Slot variations - True, minmatar give you the option to armor tank. However, I contend that shield tanking is far superior for agility and speed concerns for solo, and it's caldari that give you enough mid slots for shield + ewar.

Not to mention when speed is involved, that means MWD's are on. And when MWD's are on, those scourge fury's do a ton of dps.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#145 - 2012-05-24 21:03:18 UTC
Caldari ships are the best because HOLYFK MISSILE ANIMATIONS OMG.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#146 - 2012-05-24 21:04:00 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Caldari ships are the best because HOLYFK MISSILE ANIMATIONS OMG.


/thread
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2012-05-24 23:16:17 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Nalianna wrote:
My Caldari character, on the other hand, is the oldest with the most SP, and almost useless at PvP because of the racial/factional alignment. I am forever trying to figure out how would a true-blue Caldari pilot actually survive in PvP without cutting at least a few corners or making the odd compromise.


You are completely wrong here. Caldari can fill every fleet role excellently except joining in with an RR armor BS gang. And then you can still be useful in a sneaky falcon at range, or come in with a cerb at range and drive off enemy falcons (150km missiles ftw).

Look at my killboard, I fly almost exclusively caldari ships except for the thrasher, and I'm probably going to switch to the cormorant like Princess Nexxala (another member of my corporation you can look on the killboards for his success rate in the cormorant) .

Caldari have top tier ships in every single fleet comp except for RR armor BS gangs and alpha gangs (and even in an alpha gang, you can fit for the same tank + range setup, you just won't be as effective for the alpha but you can participate).

So, how to make a pure caldari pilot?

Cormorants -> caracals (or moa if you want to do a blaster gang). Caracal Navy Issue is a beast. -> drake (OP ship in its class IMO) -> naga (great sniping t3, and I've seen it used as an effective blaster boat too) -> armor BS gangs bring a falcon instead for support.

harpy/hawks are decent AF's too. I haven't look into it yet, but I assume the hawk would be nasty with the new fuelled shield boosters.

And the navy hookbill is IMO the best faction (non-pirate) frig there is.

Well, I've clearly been hanging out with the wrong crowd!! ^^

Most of the people in my corp and the alliance, for that matter, think of me as somewhat of an anachronism. It's good to see that there are others who think as I do. For the record, the attitude that I expressed that Nalianna was near to useless for PvP is more a reflection of the attitudes of those in my corp than it is my own.

I love Caldari ships and tactics, and I lament that they are seemingly not appreciated by the general population in EVE. I am very keen to explore what I can do with Nali's skills, if they aren't that useless after all....

And I do love the hawk and the hookbill. I was once told that the hookbill was the single most useless ship in the game next to the firetail. I have a firetail as well, flown by one of my other pilots and I think it's a wonderful ship. Have yet to fully appreciate what a hookbill can do, as with most of my other ships, as I have until now, had noone to talk to about this, no sounding boards. I've recently been exploring the Scorpion class ships. I really want to see what I can do with the rattlesnake (yes, Nali has Gallente skills enough for that ship) and the widow. If Caldari ships and tactics are as powerful as this thread is leading me to believe, Nali will be an awesome pilot.... One day.... :)
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#148 - 2012-05-24 23:20:19 UTC
Hrett wrote:
Caldari have great ships. Caracal, Blaster moa, Drake, Merlin, Hookbill, Caracal Navy Issue, Corm. They are all excellent.

My thoughts exactly. I love them. Of course, they are mostly the only ships that Nali flies but I do have other characters that fly other races and I know other ships, particularly Gallente, and I still love Caldari ships more. My all time favourite ship is the Cerb, and my first and best love was the Merlin, which transmogrified to the Hawk. All great ships.
Tekitha
Esshulls Retirement Club
#149 - 2012-05-24 23:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tekitha
chatgris wrote:


EDIT: I'm not actually that sure. Rail rokhs + basilisks vs baddons + guardians.... and keep in mind the caldari fleet gets falcons while the amarr fleets only gets a curse/pilgrim. I'd have to EFT some numbers, but actually I think pure caldari might win against pure amarr in the BS dept too.



Absolutely no way, unless it's in nullsec and bubbles are being used for tackle then the fight would have to take place at under 24km at which point the shield fleet would get annihalated due to lower DPS and tank. Even at longer range (up to 50-60km depending on abaddons fits) the Abaddons would win with scorch. Only beyond probably 70km would the rohk's have an advantage, and at that range the DPS would be minimal and I doubt the guardians would have any trouble repping, assuming numbers weren't high enough that things were being alpha'd.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#150 - 2012-05-24 23:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: chatgris
Tekitha wrote:
chatgris wrote:


EDIT: I'm not actually that sure. Rail rokhs + basilisks vs baddons + guardians.... and keep in mind the caldari fleet gets falcons while the amarr fleets only gets a curse/pilgrim. I'd have to EFT some numbers, but actually I think pure caldari might win against pure amarr in the BS dept too.



Absolutely no way, unless it's in nullsec and bubbles are being used for tackle then the fight would have to take place at under 24km at which point the shield fleet would get annihalated due to lower DPS and tank. Even at longer range (up to 50-60km depending on abaddons fits) the Abaddons would win with scorch. Only beyond probably 70km would the rohk's have an advantage, and at that range the DPS would be minimal and I doubt the guardians would have any trouble repping, assuming numbers weren't high enough that things were being alpha'd.


I agree with you on the DPS/tank ratios. However, the only reason I changed my mind to unsure is the effect that a pile of pure amarr ECM falcons/scorps/bb's (depending on how we define "even" fleets by ISK, or pilots, or ship class points etc) would have. I think they might be able to make up for the lack of dps/tank, assuming they could sit off at range (lots of initial fleet positioning).

Regardless, this is a purely academic exercise, because pure race fleets aren't a restriction in eve.
Tekitha
Esshulls Retirement Club
#151 - 2012-05-25 00:04:40 UTC
maybe, but as far as I'm aware (I don't fly ecm) falcon's are only able to jam efficiently out to about 70km? at which range a couple of dual TC abaddons would kill or run them off in a volley or two. Scorp's would likely be more of a problem, altho I believe the jamming strength is considerably lower, to the point where a guardian with 1 ECCM (pretty standard fit) would be difficult to jam. As you say tho, it is all academic and the variable's are too many to count. Suffice to say I'd take an abaddon fleet over a rohk fleet any day :)
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-05-25 00:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalianna
Mutnin wrote:
Lance Shrike wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Yes but they all take a pretty decent amount of skill points to become competitive with Minmatar ships. Lol


So, to sum this up - if I would ever want to join the Caldari Militia then it is crucial to have a well-skilled pilot, right? I can understand the point of getting your experience from "beginner" fights, but still I don't want to join up and fly something which is not properly fitted to do the job.


No.. our corp for example recruits a lot of brand new guys.. It's just we tend to push them into Thrashers and now starting to push them into Ruptures after that. They are easy ships to get guys into and allows lower skill point guys to still be effective.



I still can't see how this is any different from normal PvP. Surely FW PvP has to be more than just choosing sides, regardless of what race you are, what race's ships you fly, etc. I know I'm being a bit puritanical about it, but I can't see how flying any ship that works for you, and joining any militia regardless of your race is any different really from free-for-all PvP. The fact that there is no restriction (real or imagined) to who can fight for whom and in what ships is probably the reason that Caldari apparently (according to this thread) don't have a strong militia. Too many just give up and go to join someone else (Gallente?).

I think CCP has hopelessly compromised the game as far as FW is concerned. I'm sure at some point (probably long ago) the idea was that people would participate in FW in their own factions and their own race's ships, but all the rules that would have been in place back then have long since been watered down and/or completely removed and now it's just a free-for-all WoW-style. I think CCP's revamp of the skilling for racial destroyers and bcs could be a way too delayed attempt to push things back to racial lines, and judging by the complaints that have come from the user base, it might be having some of the desired effect, but I don't know that it's going to make much difference. It will still remain the die-hard Caldari pilots who steadfastly hold the line for the Caldari Militia.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#153 - 2012-05-25 00:29:19 UTC
Nalianna wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Lance Shrike wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Yes but they all take a pretty decent amount of skill points to become competitive with Minmatar ships. Lol


So, to sum this up - if I would ever want to join the Caldari Militia then it is crucial to have a well-skilled pilot, right? I can understand the point of getting your experience from "beginner" fights, but still I don't want to join up and fly something which is not properly fitted to do the job.


No.. our corp for example recruits a lot of brand new guys.. It's just we tend to push them into Thrashers and now starting to push them into Ruptures after that. They are easy ships to get guys into and allows lower skill point guys to still be effective.



I still can't see how this is any different from normal PvP. Surely FW PvP has to be more than just choosing sides, regardless of what race you are, what race's ships you fly, etc. I know I'm being a bit puritanical about it, but I can't see how flying any ship that works for you, and joining any militia regardless of your race is any different really from free-for-all PvP. The fact that there is no restriction (real or imagined) to who can fight for whom and in what ships is probably the reason that Caldari apparently (according to this thread) don't have a strong militia. Too many just give up and go to join someone else (Gallente?).

I think CCP has hopelessly compromised the game as far as FW is concerned. I'm sure at some point (probably long ago) the idea was that people would participate in FW in their own factions and their own race's ships, but all the rules that would have been in place back then have long since been watered down and/or completely removed and now it's just a free-for-all WoW-style. I think CCP's revamp of the skilling for racial destroyers and bcs could be a way too delayed attempt to push things back to racial lines, and judging by the complaints that have come from the user base, it might be having some of the desired effect, but I don't know that it's going to make much difference. It will still remain the die-hard Caldari pilots who steadfastly hold the line for the Caldari Militia.


Congratulations. You just over analyzed everything and talked yourself out of FW. Just move on at this point. Paralysis from over analysis

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#154 - 2012-05-25 00:31:36 UTC
Lock out wrote:
Nalianna wrote:
has the dedication to training a single race been so lost in the mists of time that it is now considered quirky or misguided?



Yes.

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE. I guess I can just keep flying Caldari ships and wear the consequences, but it saddens me that the game has allowed complete breakdown of racial/factional alignment to such an extent. And it's at every level, too - pilots can just retrain into any skills they want, can remap for any attributes they want regardless of their chosen bloodline. Really, race means hardly anything at all, except purely as a starting point. That removes so much richness from the game, IMHO.
Tekitha
Esshulls Retirement Club
#155 - 2012-05-25 00:34:39 UTC
Nalianna wrote:
Lock out wrote:
Nalianna wrote:
has the dedication to training a single race been so lost in the mists of time that it is now considered quirky or misguided?



Yes.

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE. I guess I can just keep flying Caldari ships and wear the consequences, but it saddens me that the game has allowed complete breakdown of racial/factional alignment to such an extent. And it's at every level, too - pilots can just retrain into any skills they want, can remap for any attributes they want regardless of their chosen bloodline. Really, race means hardly anything at all, except purely as a starting point. That removes so much richness from the game, IMHO.


Exactly what you describe here is exactly what separates eve from the swathes of other MMO's on the market. In eve you don't role a particular race / class and then get stuck with that skill set for your entire career. There are literally thousands of other games you could / should be playing if this is what you are looking for.

Please take your misguided requests elsewhere and stop trying to ruin our game.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#156 - 2012-05-25 00:37:28 UTC
Nalianna wrote:

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE.
Your destiny is to join the Caldari Militia, learn to fly Caldari ships well, and then start a Caldari militia corp whose purpose is to bring together other players who want to fly in all-Caldari fleets. Your Eve-life now has a purpose. Have at it.
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-05-25 00:39:51 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
... snip...
Congratulations. You just over analyzed everything and talked yourself out of FW. Just move on at this point. Paralysis from over analysis

Yes, quite possibly. I've been struggling with this for such a long time, and with no hope of a solution, I'm barely hanging onto any reason to keep paying my subscriptions. Given that I'm not interested in all-out free-for-all PvP, FW was the only theatre I thought might give me something I would really enjoy. I remember reading somewhere else that someone didn't actually like EVE, it was just the best game of its type (only game of its type?). I have been feeling more and more like that. I really wish there was a variant of this game that did have strong racial/factional rules that would keep the majority within their own race/faction ships and FW, while allowing those who really wanted to, to make the move to train some base skills in another race and make a move. That would still allow cross skilling but greatly encourage exploration of a single race's skills and ships - something that seems to me to be lacking for the most part in EVE.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#158 - 2012-05-25 00:44:09 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Nalianna wrote:

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE.
Your destiny is to join the Caldari Militia, learn to fly Caldari ships well, and then start a Caldari militia corp whose purpose is to bring together other players who want to fly in all-Caldari fleets. Your Eve-life now has a purpose. Have at it.


Dead Rabbits Society is focused on an all Caldari fleet.

http://www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-05-25 00:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nalianna
Tekitha wrote:
Nalianna wrote:
Lock out wrote:
Nalianna wrote:
has the dedication to training a single race been so lost in the mists of time that it is now considered quirky or misguided?



Yes.

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE. I guess I can just keep flying Caldari ships and wear the consequences, but it saddens me that the game has allowed complete breakdown of racial/factional alignment to such an extent. And it's at every level, too - pilots can just retrain into any skills they want, can remap for any attributes they want regardless of their chosen bloodline. Really, race means hardly anything at all, except purely as a starting point. That removes so much richness from the game, IMHO.


Exactly what you describe here is exactly what separates eve from the swathes of other MMO's on the market. In eve you don't role a particular race / class and then get stuck with that skill set for your entire career. There are literally thousands of other games you could / should be playing if this is what you are looking for.

Please take your misguided requests elsewhere and stop trying to ruin our game.

Sorry, how am I trying to ruin your game? I'm trying to find a place for myself in the only game of its type on the planet. l'm not trying to say pilots should never be able to fly anything but their own race, just that it should be harder to do that than it currently is. To my knowledge there is no other game that offers anything like what EVE currently has and even less what it could have with a little judicious use of racial bonuses for flying ships of your own race. A basic retraining in a different race could then give you the bonuses for that race and all would be cool. But that's not gonna happen, so I have to just find a niche for myself and I don't think your comment helps me do that.
Nalianna
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-05-25 00:48:14 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Nalianna wrote:

So my stance on this is doomed to oblivion. Given that I find the idea of training another race's ships somewhat less than alluring, I don't know what my destiny is in EVE.
Your destiny is to join the Caldari Militia, learn to fly Caldari ships well, and then start a Caldari militia corp whose purpose is to bring together other players who want to fly in all-Caldari fleets. Your Eve-life now has a purpose. Have at it.


Dead Rabbits Society is focused on an all Caldari fleet.

http://www.thedeadrabbitsociety.com/

Thanks. I'll have a look. :)