These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Fleet of Rokhs - Cost Analysis Needed
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-05-23 23:47:39 UTC
This thread is really about the yield versus costs of a Hulk/Orca mining fleet compared to a Rokh/Drake fleet.

The question is this: can we harvest ore from belts and grav sites, and make Rokhs cheaper than if we just sell the minerals and buy the Rokhs on the open market? (Please see my fleet config here. We have been tweaking and optimizing, so those loadouts are now a little out of date, but it gives you an idea of what we are doing.)

Costs as we understand them ::
1) 1.3 billion for a Rokh blueprint - one fellow in our corp has perfect industrial skills (as far as making a Rokh). Purchased and being researched.
2) Hulk losses versus yield compared to no Rokh losses at all but slightly less yield.
3) The Rokhs are for "personal consumption", meaning we do not need to factor in a profit.
4) Costs of purchased minerals as grav sites for the megacyte and zydrine are not guaranteed or predictable.
5) We can harvest plenty of hi sec minerals, with oodles of trit and pyerite left over to sell, thus enabling the purchase of harder to acquire minerals.

Bottom line is that we are considering the Rokh/Drake fleet config as a permanent change, as we have incurred no losses so far, and we can mine with efficiency, meaninig no distractions from gankers.

I think you get the picture. Please comment.
Lustralis
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-05-24 00:32:04 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
This thread is really about the yield versus costs of a Hulk/Orca mining fleet compared to a Rokh/Drake fleet.

The question is this: can we harvest ore from belts and grav sites, and make Rokhs cheaper than if we just sell the minerals and buy the Rokhs on the open market? (Please see my fleet config here. We have been tweaking and optimizing, so those loadouts are now a little out of date, but it gives you an idea of what we are doing.)

Costs as we understand them ::
1) 1.3 billion for a Rokh blueprint - one fellow in our corp has perfect industrial skills (as far as making a Rokh). Purchased and being researched.
2) Hulk losses versus yield compared to no Rokh losses at all but slightly less yield.
3) The Rokhs are for "personal consumption", meaning we do not need to factor in a profit.
4) Costs of purchased minerals as grav sites for the megacyte and zydrine are not guaranteed or predictable.
5) We can harvest plenty of hi sec minerals, with oodles of trit and pyerite left over to sell, thus enabling the purchase of harder to acquire minerals.

Bottom line is that we are considering the Rokh/Drake fleet config as a permanent change, as we have incurred no losses so far, and we can mine with efficiency, meaninig no distractions from gankers.

I think you get the picture. Please comment.



My comment would be I expect you're still in profit even if you mine with exhumer and lose one every now and again, compared to the setups you're promoting here. However, they do remind me of my days mining in an Apoc, so for nostalic reasons I support this idea :).
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#3 - 2012-05-24 00:34:43 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
This thread is really about the yield versus costs of a Hulk/Orca mining fleet compared to a Rokh/Drake fleet.

The question is this: can we harvest ore from belts and grav sites, and make Rokhs cheaper than if we just sell the minerals and buy the Rokhs on the open market? (Please see my fleet config here. We have been tweaking and optimizing, so those loadouts are now a little out of date, but it gives you an idea of what we are doing.)

Costs as we understand them ::
1) 1.3 billion for a Rokh blueprint - one fellow in our corp has perfect industrial skills (as far as making a Rokh). Purchased and being researched.
2) Hulk losses versus yield compared to no Rokh losses at all but slightly less yield.
3) The Rokhs are for "personal consumption", meaning we do not need to factor in a profit.
4) Costs of purchased minerals as grav sites for the megacyte and zydrine are not guaranteed or predictable.
5) We can harvest plenty of hi sec minerals, with oodles of trit and pyerite left over to sell, thus enabling the purchase of harder to acquire minerals.

Bottom line is that we are considering the Rokh/Drake fleet config as a permanent change, as we have incurred no losses so far, and we can mine with efficiency, meaninig no distractions from gankers.

I think you get the picture. Please comment.



Bin trying to tell people to use rohks since the Hulk reached 300M mark, the trade would be, economically sound.
I do believe at the current mineral prices, the hulk has hit its ceiling price.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#4 - 2012-05-24 07:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
The biggest problem I find with the Rokh is its small cargohold, which forces you to stagger the lasers, and constantly move ore out of the cargohold. I'd personally go with a Covetor instead (cheaper too).

Current Jita Prices:
* Hulk hull: 262m
* Rokh hull: 214m
* Covetor hull: 30m

[Rokh, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Co-Processor II
Co-Processor II

Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array
Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array
Eutectic Capacitor Charge Array
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Medium C5-L Emergency Shield Overload I
Experimental 100MN Afterburner I

Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Deep Core Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I


Hammerhead II x5
Mavnas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-05-24 15:24:01 UTC
Why drakes? A Hurricane could boost the fleet and also do mining of its own. (It can also fit more mining drones than than the drake.)
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-05-24 17:47:21 UTC
992.25 m3 per cycle retriever 7.8 mill per ship

840.157 m3 per cycle Rokh 212 mill per ship

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Orion Wyvernbane
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-05-24 19:08:15 UTC
Barbara Nichole wrote:
992.25 m3 per cycle retriever 7.8 mill per ship


I get 1600 m3 per cycle in my minimum-skilled/no-boosted/T1-strips retriever. Perhaps you meant per minute?
Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#8 - 2012-05-24 19:28:57 UTC
If you want to AFK mine, go ahead with the Rokh. If you are fine with mining actively, watching who jumps into your belt, and being in good position (30-40km from warpin, pointed towards your escape destination), than Hulk it is. You're going to mine more with a Hulk, period. As long as you aren't completely foolish and take some precautions, your increase in profits will far outweigh your losses.
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-24 22:20:17 UTC
Debiru wrote:
If you want to AFK mine, go ahead with the Rokh. If you are fine with mining actively, watching who jumps into your belt, and being in good position (30-40km from warpin, pointed towards your escape destination), than Hulk it is. You're going to mine more with a Hulk, period. As long as you aren't completely foolish and take some precautions, your increase in profits will far outweigh your losses.


AFK mining with a Rokh, do you type and not think at all?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2012-05-25 02:33:52 UTC
Debiru wrote:
If you want to AFK mine, go ahead with the Rokh. If you are fine with mining actively, watching who jumps into your belt, and being in good position (30-40km from warpin, pointed towards your escape destination), than Hulk it is. You're going to mine more with a Hulk, period. As long as you aren't completely foolish and take some precautions, your increase in profits will far outweigh your losses.


Passive Align is OP.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sturmwolke
#11 - 2012-05-25 11:59:36 UTC
The new CPU rigs are almost built for the mining barges/exhumers.
You can get a lovely fit for a tanked Covetor now.
Dave Stark
#12 - 2012-05-25 12:18:35 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
The new CPU rigs are almost built for the mining barges/exhumers.
You can get a lovely fit for a tanked Covetor now.

that 1 midslot is going to give you lots of tank!
Sturmwolke
#13 - 2012-05-25 12:48:39 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Sturmwolke wrote:
The new CPU rigs are almost built for the mining barges/exhumers.
You can get a lovely fit for a tanked Covetor now.

that 1 midslot is going to give you lots of tank!


It survived 1 gank destroyer in a 0.6 (not EFT warrioring) - not even reaching hull, possibly 2 gank destroyers depending on the circumstances.
Standard DCU, MAPC and Meta4 Medium extender build. There's a difference between reasonably tanked mining barge/exhumers vs bot-like tissue paper builds.

The Rokh idea is fine, especially coupled with the new CPU rigs but as has been pointed out, it takes too many operations to move the ore.
Now, the Covetor, you can lose several of these without balking on the replacement costs (fittings inclusive).
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-05-25 21:04:50 UTC
First of all, thank you all for your contributions to this thread. You have given me a bunch to think about.

We have been thinking about all this for a while now as it seems that ganking Hulks has been generally increasing. So we started testing our fleet design a little before HV. It has worked out well, in terms of zero losses, so we want to expand our fleet.

But to address some of your comments:
- At the heart of the matter is the differences in hull costs. We are pitting lower losses from cheaper hulls plus higher yield against zero Rokh losses (including implants, mods, etc) but lower yield.

One of the reasons we have avoided Retrievers and Covetors is podding. The gank teams we encounter are not satisfied with wrecks and stealing ore - they pod us if they have time before Concord arrives. I am podded before my screen clears from the ship explosion. No amount of spamming the dock button saves my toon. I have no f''ng clue how they lock on to my pod before my screen clears, but that is my pathetic reality. I guarantee you, if we fly Retrievers or Covetors, we will be podded leading to implant losses that are hard to compensate for.

We have tried tanked Hulks, and that does help somewhat against the solo gankers, but after building a tank good enough to survive waiting for Concord, the yield goes way down.

So due to the propensity of the precision gank teams in our neighborhood, and then doing a yield comparison, we thought Rokhs were the way to go.

The one factor that I may be hearing from you guys is that Retrievers and Covetors are not on the gank team hit list, at least, not the priority of Hulks. So, if that is what you are saying, I'll reconsider the cheaper/wimpier mining ships again.

- Call me dumb, but I never thought about treating a high sec mining op as if we running a plex in lo sec. I'll consider this.

- I chose a Drake because a) I had one, and b) it has shield bonuses that match up well with our fleet boosts. I have always armor tanked my Canes, and I think I actually played with EFT and ran out of CPU. But I will reconsider this.

- Yes - you cannot AFK mine in a Rokh as your cargo hold fills up fast. In my build, we must jettison every three mins, plus you have eight Miner IIs to manage. It is clicking insanity, true. But we designed for no podding and no losses. Perhaps this was an extreme design goal. I can reconsider this as well based upon other changes mentioned above.

The Big Question (which may be moot if we change strategies):
Is it more cost effective to build Rokhs from harvested ore, or to buy them on the open market? We have a guy with perfect Indy skills, and we are currently researching a Rokh blue print. Our indy guys thinks we will never be able to beat the pricing of established producers, and that we should sell our ore and buy the Rokhs. What is your take on this ?
LJ Hugz
Shield Protector Innovations
#15 - 2012-05-25 22:07:38 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:

The Big Question (which may be moot if we change strategies):
Is it more cost effective to build Rokhs from harvested ore, or to buy them on the open market? We have a guy with perfect Indy skills, and we are currently researching a Rokh blue print. Our indy guys thinks we will never be able to beat the pricing of established producers, and that we should sell our ore and buy the Rokhs. What is your take on this ?



Using EVE ISK per Hour program, with current Jita prices and perfect skills, producing Rokhs with an unresearched blueprint yields -16,938,056 ISK profit. At ME 6, your profit jumps to 92,113 ISK. Take that as you wish.
Zetaomega333
High Flyers
#16 - 2012-05-25 23:09:21 UTC
Orion Wyvernbane wrote:
Barbara Nichole wrote:
992.25 m3 per cycle retriever 7.8 mill per ship


I get 1600 m3 per cycle in my minimum-skilled/no-boosted/T1-strips retriever. Perhaps you meant per minute?


I doubt you do as my t1 strip hulk pilot gets less than that.
Sturmwolke
#17 - 2012-05-26 00:59:26 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:

Is it more cost effective to build Rokhs from harvested ore, or to buy them on the open market? We have a guy with perfect Indy skills, and we are currently researching a Rokh blue print. Our indy guys thinks we will never be able to beat the pricing of established producers, and that we should sell our ore and buy the Rokhs. What is your take on this ?


That really depends on urgency of use. If your need is urgent, buy the Rokh straight from the market. Market sell prices for T1 ships generally hovers around 5-10% above the mineral value of these ships (which are produced from, at minimum ME30 BPO/BPC). Anything above 10% mineral value, I'd call that market gouging from the perspective of a trader Big smile Never do your shopping on weekends as prices tend to skew to the higher end.

Otherwise, you can probably take your time building them from BPCs (ME30 minimum, ME50 or above preferable) with a PE5 guy. If you're just starting in-house research on a Rokh BPO, it'll take months to get it up to acceptable level. Building your own usually works out slightly cheaper than market, at least for simple T1 items/ships. If you build from BPCs, be wary of the price differences between lets say an ME30 BPC vs an ME50 BPC. In many cases, the ME30 BPC works out cheaper per run after you calculate the extra mineral price difference. Use http://zofu.no-ip.de/bpo to get a quick rough estimation on the amount wasted (it looks like approx 256K isk extra per run for an ME30 vs ME50).

The minor cons to building your own ship is the logistics involved. Preferably, use the station where you mine and refine ores as your factory. The less ore movement, the better.
Another cons is the need to mine the right ores to get the mineral balance right. Probably the best approach is to mine the Top 3 profitable ores and trade them for the ores/minerals you need.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-05-27 14:35:08 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
- good stuff +
Another cons is the need to mine the right ores to get the mineral balance right. Probably the best approach is to mine the Top 3 profitable ores and trade them for the ores/minerals you need.

Thanks for your comments.

The mineral balance is something we understand, and we planned to do exactly that - mine whatever and sell off surpluses of minerals to accommodate deficits. Buying the minerals we need most, like zydrine and megacyte, will eat up cost savings really fast, making us lean toward buying Rokhs off the open market. We all like the idea of being able to build Rokhs independent of normal market gyrations, just because.

Now enter a new piece of news: His Highness, the Mittani, has essentially announced that they will make payouts for Hulk ganks permanent for reasons of anarchy and profits. But despite such incentives, it seems to be a reality now that ganks are ongoing. So the motivation for mining in Rokhs is being further cemented. This points my thinking at comments in this thread that flying Covetors and Retrievers is a viable option.

This brings up yet another question : do Covetors and Retrievers get ganked less often than Hulks, or is it only that they are cheaper to lose ?

We haven't seen any real difference between which ship type gets ganked. They are all targets, except the Rokhs (and cruiser miners). We repeatedly scout out dead and dieing Hulks, Covetors and Retrievers in belts all around us. Having said that, we live in a border system with 2@ gates to 0.4 systems. So maybe we get more than our fair share of gank teams.

Any thoughts ?
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-05-29 02:09:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mathrin
In my experience a properly fitted mining rohk with crystals can mine as much as a tanked hulk (no yield mods) with way more tank and a cheaper price tag. The down side is you don't have long cycle time like the hulk does so no semi afk mining. If you use an orca with it you need all three links due to power concern. If you do use an orca with the mindlnk make sure to have a cargo rig or you can't keep up
Breezly Brewin
Vril Metaphysics Society
#20 - 2012-05-29 04:47:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Breezly Brewin
i would think covs and retrievers have better chance of getting ganked because a retriever can be soloed and a poorly fit covetor probably can as well. but i still like them because they are just cheaper to lose, if you are losing ships and getting podded at such a high frequency, perhaps you should think of relocating.

as for rokhs, the idea of having to click and drag so often makes me shudder, but i know a lot of people like the security. i check the map and mine in systems that have had 0 kills in last 24 hrs and since moving to my last 2 current regions (knock on wood) i haven't so much of heard of ganking attempts.

if you'd like to know where i have mined to good success with very few gankers, message me in game. i think you are mining in the wrong region/constellation altogether, thus asking for trouble that isn't necessary.